Is the fun back? - Page 3

RBLwebguy · 02-10-2007, 07:31 PM

The interface was enough of an improvement for me and with all of the new features, I definitely think the fun is back, but my definition of fun may not be yours. As many have said before, give the demo a whirl and then you will know.

The testers do take Markus to task and as he said, it is for the betterment of the product.

I hope everyone who does buy it has as much fun as I had using it so far.

Facegen, custom awards/all stars, historical & online improvements have gotten me excited

SC_Dawg · 02-10-2007, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigcat

With all due respect to the fine people who do the testing and they do an excellent and under-respected job, they are all hardcore fans of OOTP and Markus. They aren't likely to go beyond finding bugs and writing PbP to intensively looking at questionable design.

What I kinda find funny is in the beta forums there have been more than a couple of knock down drag out arguements over the way the game should work. People there are asked to be honest first and a fanboy second and I honestly believe each and every one of the beta testers are doing just that.

RonCo · 02-10-2007, 09:09 PM

To be honest, I thought fanboi-ism was moderately thick in the beta crew for the first two builds. But it, uh, changed pretty much from the first of January on. It's fun to get in and just read the discussions these days. There's a lot of meat and potatoes work going on. 100+ testers can create quite a ruckus.

That said, it's not beta testers who release the game or make the final decisions. I give Markus credit merely for being able to keep up with it all, better yet work on the changes he's managed to come up with.

Caporegime · 02-10-2007, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC_Dawg

What I kinda find funny is in the beta forums there have been more than a couple of knock down drag out arguements over the way the game should work. People there are asked to be honest first and a fanboy second and I honestly believe each and every one of the beta testers are doing just that.

Boy, to be a fly on those virtual walls, eh?

Any chance of those forums being made public once the game is released? I'd love to see the creative process at work there.

battists · 02-10-2007, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caporegime

Boy, to be a fly on those virtual walls, eh?

Any chance of those forums being made public once the game is released? I'd love to see the creative process at work there.

I doubt it.

(Uh, just in case, delete those posts about capo, guys!)

Caporegime · 02-10-2007, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

I doubt it.

(Uh, just in case, delete those posts about capo, guys!)

LMAO!!

Satanic · 02-10-2007, 10:03 PM

I read the promotion email and come back to see the improvements.
Very much like Bigcat, I'm an avid gamer. I played lots of RPGs, Sim games and stuff, and I work in the gaming industry in Taiwan.
I also bought 4 versions of OTTP series, including ITP.

While I'm excited about the new features, I'm also worried about the 2007 release. 2006 was a giant leap and great attempt to make OTTP the best baseball sim in years to come, that's why Marcus re-wrote the whole engine. Some features were bugged, and some were simply missing.

But the thing I worry about the most is the INTERFACE.
I saw the adjective "intuitive" in the newsletter. Would it really work as advertised? I really hate going through unnecessary clicking back and forth. One thing good about 6.5 is that after you set up all the stuff, you only need to check THE few pages once in a while. But in 2006 it didn't work that way. Yeah, bookmark is great, but it's not really intuitive. It just didn't feel right.

And, for example, in the latest patch, I still find giving extension a tedious job. After I checked the Possible Free Agents, made the offer to a player, and I want to go to the next possible FA...what? I can't just right click and get back to the previous page? Or even better, why not let the offered player disappear from the list too? Or, the best I can think of is that make a page with the list of possible FAs and you can adjust from that page without having to go back and forth?

---------------------------------------------------
Name----Current Salary---Years-------Offer----------Offered
Delgado--8,000,000------[-]1[+]----[-]100000[+]------v
---------------------------------------------------

Just an example. I know in 2006 the salary system is too complicated to be handled this way, for there're bonuses, clauses and stuff to be taken care of. However, I do urge the develop team to think like this. Make it convenient and really intuitive.

And OTTP 2006 still doesn't memorize the Views for me. Default is set to All players. Why do I need to change the view from All Players to All batters in the lineup setup screen, or All Players to All Pitchers in the pitching rotation screen, every time after I restart the game? Some things are so plain to see...you don't need batters when viewing the bullpen. I ain't going to let my CF pitch any inning. Maybe some users wanna do that, but I believe the majority don't.

Anyways...I hope that I've made my points clear.

endgame · 02-10-2007, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Satanic

Default is set to All players. Why do I need to change the view from All Players to All batters in the lineup setup screen, or All Players to All Pitchers in the pitching rotation screen...you don't need batters when viewing the bullpen.

Good point, and one I keep forgetting to mention. I do hope this area is one included in the many that, I'm sure, have evolved into a more natural orientation for the end user.

Autism Speaks · 02-10-2007, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigcat

Lol, OK I repent for my comment on beta-testers being fans and not critical enough.

If it'll help you at all, let me relate a bit of a beta testing story as best I can without violating our NDA.

There's one particular issue related to the amateur draft that many of the testers felt was a big enough deal that it needed to be changed for 2007. Markus didn't really see that it was that big a deal and as a result was inclined just to move to other issues to program.

The betas, led by one particular beta guy who after the game comes out and we're released from NDA can take a well-deserved bow, lead the charge to make Markus understand why it was a necessary component especially for online leagues.

The result of the full-on assault from the beta guys even when Markus appeared to move on? Markus went back and not only coded the original suggestion but a second improvement the beta guys found while trumpeting the first improvement.

The beta testing for 2007 is much much different than 2006. This time around we feel like...to answer your question...the fun is back.

jarmenia · 02-10-2007, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Satanic

And OTTP 2006 still doesn't memorize the Views for me. Default is set to All players. Why do I need to change the view from All Players to All batters in the lineup setup screen, or All Players to All Pitchers in the pitching rotation screen, every time after I restart the game? Some things are so plain to see...you don't need batters when viewing the bullpen. I ain't going to let my CF pitch any inning. Maybe some users wanna do that, but I believe the majority don't.

Anyways...I hope that I've made my points clear.

I believe the views now default to pitchers only and batters only for the respective screens.

Curtis · 02-11-2007, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarmenia

I believe the views now default to pitchers only and batters only for the respective screens.

Do you mean in 2007? Because 2006 works like Satanic described it.

rasnell · 02-11-2007, 05:53 AM

Hey, my signature says it all: I hated 2006 and I confess to being a DEMANDING fan boy now.

I hated everything about 2006 -- inability to see all of the pbp, no way to customize the size of the display box for pbp, lousy stat results on leaderboards, modifiers that didn't seem to be working especially when simming in the crazy, HR-shifting era between 1929-1932, and on and on.

Raidergoo was right about my obsession with WP. Markus never did get it right in 6.5 or 2006. I wore him out on the beta team for 2007. Wild pitches are fixed now and so are balks and hit by pitch.

I can sum up my impression from the inside: Markus has thick skin and takes a pounding with humor. I'm grateful for the chance to be invited to the first-time ever beta experience -- actually surprised, too, considering how awful 2006 was and how vocal I was.

Now to your specifics:
Interface I'm not wild about it. But it's better with league creation wizards and a manager home page that has hot links to all the critical things that you want to do. Trades are a breeze now. The ability to right-click on a player's name anywhere in the game and do all kinds of transactions like offering extensions, shopping for trades, moving on the roster, reallly make a difference. Is it perfect? Nope. I'm still annoyed by the changing views from batter to pitcher, I've TT'd it, and consider it a bug to be squashed.

Fan boys on beta testing team That will generate a laugh for all of us. Markus has all kinds of charts, stat results and debates flaring against him and it is truly remarkable to see how much is tweaked and dealt with each Friday when we get our new builds.

How is the fun back? As a historical simming purist, I could care less about FaceGen but some folks will love it and it is neat. You could make this game cook hot dogs and popcorn and I wouldn't care. The heart and soul to me are interesting and realistic play by play, an AI that is sensible when managing rosters and making draft picks, an AI that is tough on trades and season and career leaderboards that absolutely make sense. What Markus has done to address the historic simmers is what is so dramatically improved with 2007.

Will Markus hurl a perfect game? Nope. Look how many times Randy Johnson walked to the mound hoping to throw a perfect game every time. He only did it once late in his career. There are still a lot of errors in the beta version. I'm still fussing a lot in one area regarding front office finances. But if you've supported Markus in 6.5 and earlier, tolerated 2006, and played every other baseball sim on the market -- 2007 is still like nothing I've ever played.

Complexity of the game This is a legitimate concern. There are so many variables and so many different settings. Markus has more aggressively tackled every conceiveable aspect of baseball. No other developer has even tried or has come close to trying to implement Rule 5, waiver wires, DFA, contract extensions, service time, automatic expansion, etc. Yes, this game is more complicated than any other baseball sim on the market. But it's like war games where you're intimidated if you're not a grognard. If you're new to this game, it is going to take a lot of effort to master this. But there's a lot of fun in tinkering to get exactly the settings that you want and test your own universe. A lot has been done to make it more user friendly. But if you were looking for a simple arcade game, you wouldn't be looking at a text sim anyway. To me, the greatest reward is the incredible depth of stats and history that you are creating in the process.

Sorry for the length of this message. This game is much more than a hobby. It's a passion. As I've noted before, I've spent far more money on every text sim game on the market through the years than I have on attending baseball games. I cannot imagine life without baseball and I cannot imagine a winter and offseason without my baseball text simming.

Markus Heinsohn · 02-11-2007, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curtis

Do you mean in 2007? Because 2006 works like Satanic described it.

Yes, 2007.

PotatoPeeler · 02-11-2007, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Satanic

I work in the gaming industry in Taiwan.

No kidding? What part of Taiwan do you work in? Neihu?

endgame · 02-11-2007, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasnell

This game is much more than a hobby. It's a passion.

Accompanied with its tragedies, disappointments, and potential for real joy. An excellent comment, rasnell. However limited the number of game owners who may feel this way, this is the sentiment that drives valid criticisms and assists the game's evolution.

CHCfan · 02-11-2007, 01:01 PM

How about the super awesomeness . . . is the super awesomeness back? Maybe a blog can focus on this, thanks.

bigcat · 02-11-2007, 07:24 PM

Just wanted to say thanks again for all the excellent comments and reassurances that 2007 is a big step forward.
I tried playing both 6.5 and 2006 again and the more I mess with them, the more I'm fairly sure of 2 things.
1. I'm old and change is painful.
2. 2006 has a really bad interface that for me destroys what might be pretty good game.
I do believe that if the interface on 2007 is simple enough for my aging brain to understand it, if I can handle the more complex GM aspects and if I can fairly easily do at bat by at bat pbp versus every pitch pbp, I'll be happy.

Just a few notes on my 2006 experience.
I tried to start a game the hard way, then changed my mind and tried to back up to do a ready made league, the game totally froze.
I chose Denver and tried to figure out the whole scouting thing with some success. Then I tried to see who made what and the only place I could find player salary was in the SION player page for each player. This made attemtps at trading tough. I'm sure I'm missing something really big here.
I wanted new coaching, but couldn't figure out a way to toggle on only those coaches not already employed. Plus I couldn't click down the list, I had to go page by page.
All of which leads me to believe that most of my problems with 2006 are interface related.

Hi Dave and Eli's Dad, how are the boys? Nice comments.
Thanks rasnell. That was a good read.

enuttage · 02-13-2007, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Well if you are barely playing 6.5 and hate 2006 then I can't see how 2007 will change your mind.

I think you're right in saying that you should "move on to other pastures".

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

However, based on your rather vehement reaction to 2006, I'd say 2007 is unlikely to change your mind. Fundamentally, it's the same game as 2006, with new features and improvements. It's not like he re-wrote the game again with an entirely different approach.

I guess my point is, don't get your hopes up, but try to approach it with an open mind.

^^^

Not good. Does not make me want to purchase again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Yeah, this is a broad set of questions. However, the interface is more streamlined and there are a couple of good overview screens that help you to spend more time playing and much less time struggling with the interface.

Playing through as a manager is now a lot more smooth, and thus more fun. Having AI manager records to compare to can be neat.

2007 is clearly a much more finished product, and that allows me to simply enjoy playing the game when I want to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBLwebguy

The interface was enough of an improvement for me and with all of the new features, I definitely think the fun is back, but my definition of fun may not be yours. As many have said before, give the demo a whirl and then you will know.

^^^

Much better. Making me think that maybe I want to give the franchise one last shot after purchasing seven iterations.

Thanks for sharing, y'all.

Rockpile · 02-13-2007, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

Yeah, this is a broad set of questions. However, the interface is more streamlined and there are a couple of good overview screens that help you to spend more time playing and much less time struggling with the interface.

PBP and news stories are better, more varied, and include more options.

Playing through as a manager is now a lot more smooth, and thus more fun. Having AI manager records to compare to can be neat.

The player photos add a lot more personality, too.

The AI is much better and the game is simply more polished. I wasn't a beta tester for 2006, but as a consumer, I never really played in any leagues (except when my on-line league switched). I was spending all of my time testing or poking at things because they didn't seem to work quite right. 2007 is clearly a much more finished product, and that allows me to simply enjoy playing the game when I want to.

Thank you. Great answers. I realize the "fun factor" is subjective, but I think there are objective answers a beta tester can give. Well done.

Rockpile · 02-13-2007, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHCfan

How about the super awesomeness . . . is the super awesomeness back? Maybe a blog can focus on this, thanks.

Is REM back? I hope so.

02-10-2007, 07:31 PM	#41 (permalink)
RBLwebguy Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Canuckistan Posts: 3,501	The interface was enough of an improvement for me and with all of the new features, I definitely think the fun is back, but my definition of fun may not be yours. As many have said before, give the demo a whirl and then you will know. The testers do take Markus to task and as he said, it is for the betterment of the product. I hope everyone who does buy it has as much fun as I had using it so far. Facegen, custom awards/all stars, historical & online improvements have gotten me excited __________________ "A lot of people talk about Manny leaving. I wish Pedroia was leaving." -- White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen

02-11-2007, 05:53 AM	#52 (permalink)
rasnell Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,674	Hey, my signature says it all: I hated 2006 and I confess to being a DEMANDING fan boy now. I hated everything about 2006 -- inability to see all of the pbp, no way to customize the size of the display box for pbp, lousy stat results on leaderboards, modifiers that didn't seem to be working especially when simming in the crazy, HR-shifting era between 1929-1932, and on and on. Raidergoo was right about my obsession with WP. Markus never did get it right in 6.5 or 2006. I wore him out on the beta team for 2007. Wild pitches are fixed now and so are balks and hit by pitch. I can sum up my impression from the inside: Markus has thick skin and takes a pounding with humor. I'm grateful for the chance to be invited to the first-time ever beta experience -- actually surprised, too, considering how awful 2006 was and how vocal I was. Now to your specifics: Interface I'm not wild about it. But it's better with league creation wizards and a manager home page that has hot links to all the critical things that you want to do. Trades are a breeze now. The ability to right-click on a player's name anywhere in the game and do all kinds of transactions like offering extensions, shopping for trades, moving on the roster, reallly make a difference. Is it perfect? Nope. I'm still annoyed by the changing views from batter to pitcher, I've TT'd it, and consider it a bug to be squashed. Fan boys on beta testing team That will generate a laugh for all of us. Markus has all kinds of charts, stat results and debates flaring against him and it is truly remarkable to see how much is tweaked and dealt with each Friday when we get our new builds. How is the fun back? As a historical simming purist, I could care less about FaceGen but some folks will love it and it is neat. You could make this game cook hot dogs and popcorn and I wouldn't care. The heart and soul to me are interesting and realistic play by play, an AI that is sensible when managing rosters and making draft picks, an AI that is tough on trades and season and career leaderboards that absolutely make sense. What Markus has done to address the historic simmers is what is so dramatically improved with 2007. Will Markus hurl a perfect game? Nope. Look how many times Randy Johnson walked to the mound hoping to throw a perfect game every time. He only did it once late in his career. There are still a lot of errors in the beta version. I'm still fussing a lot in one area regarding front office finances. But if you've supported Markus in 6.5 and earlier, tolerated 2006, and played every other baseball sim on the market -- 2007 is still like nothing I've ever played. Complexity of the game This is a legitimate concern. There are so many variables and so many different settings. Markus has more aggressively tackled every conceiveable aspect of baseball. No other developer has even tried or has come close to trying to implement Rule 5, waiver wires, DFA, contract extensions, service time, automatic expansion, etc. Yes, this game is more complicated than any other baseball sim on the market. But it's like war games where you're intimidated if you're not a grognard. If you're new to this game, it is going to take a lot of effort to master this. But there's a lot of fun in tinkering to get exactly the settings that you want and test your own universe. A lot has been done to make it more user friendly. But if you were looking for a simple arcade game, you wouldn't be looking at a text sim anyway. To me, the greatest reward is the incredible depth of stats and history that you are creating in the process. Sorry for the length of this message. This game is much more than a hobby. It's a passion. As I've noted before, I've spent far more money on every text sim game on the market through the years than I have on attending baseball games. I cannot imagine life without baseball and I cannot imagine a winter and offseason without my baseball text simming. __________________ Author of new book, "Root for the Cubs: Charlie Root and the 1929 Chicago Cubs," to be published by Wind Publications and available to public by Opening Day 2009. Charlie Root is remembered for one pitch to Babe Ruth in the 1932 World Series. But baseball's biggest lie has overshadowed the career of the winningest pitcher in Cub history. Beta tester, OOTP 2007/08/09. Commissioner in fast-paced, historical Arcanum Baseball League. Member, Society for American Baseball Research. Last edited by rasnell : 02-11-2007 at 05:59 AM.

02-11-2007, 01:01 PM	#56 (permalink)
CHCfan All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Lincoln, NE Posts: 854	How about the super awesomeness . . . is the super awesomeness back? Maybe a blog can focus on this, thanks. __________________

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02-10-2007, 09:09 PM	#43 (permalink)
RonCo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 5,470	To be honest, I thought fanboi-ism was moderately thick in the beta crew for the first two builds. But it, uh, changed pretty much from the first of January on. It's fun to get in and just read the discussions these days. There's a lot of meat and potatoes work going on. 100+ testers can create quite a ruckus. That said, it's not beta testers who release the game or make the final decisions. I give Markus credit merely for being able to keep up with it all, better yet work on the changes he's managed to come up with.

02-10-2007, 10:03 PM	#47 (permalink)
Satanic Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 82	I read the promotion email and come back to see the improvements. Very much like Bigcat, I'm an avid gamer. I played lots of RPGs, Sim games and stuff, and I work in the gaming industry in Taiwan. I also bought 4 versions of OTTP series, including ITP. While I'm excited about the new features, I'm also worried about the 2007 release. 2006 was a giant leap and great attempt to make OTTP the best baseball sim in years to come, that's why Marcus re-wrote the whole engine. Some features were bugged, and some were simply missing. But the thing I worry about the most is the INTERFACE. I saw the adjective "intuitive" in the newsletter. Would it really work as advertised? I really hate going through unnecessary clicking back and forth. One thing good about 6.5 is that after you set up all the stuff, you only need to check THE few pages once in a while. But in 2006 it didn't work that way. Yeah, bookmark is great, but it's not really intuitive. It just didn't feel right. And, for example, in the latest patch, I still find giving extension a tedious job. After I checked the Possible Free Agents, made the offer to a player, and I want to go to the next possible FA...what? I can't just right click and get back to the previous page? Or even better, why not let the offered player disappear from the list too? Or, the best I can think of is that make a page with the list of possible FAs and you can adjust from that page without having to go back and forth? --------------------------------------------------- Name----Current Salary---Years-------Offer----------Offered Delgado--8,000,000------[-]1[+]----[-]100000[+]------v --------------------------------------------------- Just an example. I know in 2006 the salary system is too complicated to be handled this way, for there're bonuses, clauses and stuff to be taken care of. However, I do urge the develop team to think like this. Make it convenient and really intuitive. And OTTP 2006 still doesn't memorize the Views for me. Default is set to All players. Why do I need to change the view from All Players to All batters in the lineup setup screen, or All Players to All Pitchers in the pitching rotation screen, every time after I restart the game? Some things are so plain to see...you don't need batters when viewing the bullpen. I ain't going to let my CF pitch any inning. Maybe some users wanna do that, but I believe the majority don't. Anyways...I hope that I've made my points clear.

02-11-2007, 07:24 PM	#57 (permalink)
bigcat Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 190	Just wanted to say thanks again for all the excellent comments and reassurances that 2007 is a big step forward. I tried playing both 6.5 and 2006 again and the more I mess with them, the more I'm fairly sure of 2 things. 1. I'm old and change is painful. 2. 2006 has a really bad interface that for me destroys what might be pretty good game. I do believe that if the interface on 2007 is simple enough for my aging brain to understand it, if I can handle the more complex GM aspects and if I can fairly easily do at bat by at bat pbp versus every pitch pbp, I'll be happy. Just a few notes on my 2006 experience. I tried to start a game the hard way, then changed my mind and tried to back up to do a ready made league, the game totally froze. I chose Denver and tried to figure out the whole scouting thing with some success. Then I tried to see who made what and the only place I could find player salary was in the SION player page for each player. This made attemtps at trading tough. I'm sure I'm missing something really big here. I wanted new coaching, but couldn't figure out a way to toggle on only those coaches not already employed. Plus I couldn't click down the list, I had to go page by page. All of which leads me to believe that most of my problems with 2006 are interface related. Hi Dave and Eli's Dad, how are the boys? Nice comments. Thanks rasnell. That was a good read.