TRTR : Day 3

[legendsport]

dola,

I'm going to use the Japanese database for the "Greater Baseball Co-Prosperity Sphere" which is a dynasty thread dealing with the Axis powers winning WWII; I'm trying to time the dynasty to OOTP 2007's release so that when baseball resumes after the war (in a very different USA), I can put my Japan db to use.

I also have to admit, the only reason I mention the above is that I'm leaning strongly towards making GBCPS an online league and a little pub never hurts. Plus it'll be a way to see the Japan DB in action.

The dynasty's linked in my sig...

[kagnew35]

Originally Posted by legendsport

1936 - the actual first year of pro baseball in Japan. Prior to that it was purely amateur.

Note: the db's not finished, but it is in progress and someday it will be done and I will release it to the community at that point. In the meantime, I will use it for leagues and/or dynasties of my own to spur me to completing it.

Sounds like an awesome project, legendsports, can't wait for it to be released, any idea on timng?

Contemplate an international league structure with US, Japan, Cuba, Mexican divisions, hopefully the other countries will have RL db's soon as well

[Tiger Fan]

Originally Posted by legendsport

Great work TigerFan (as usual). I'm guessing that if someone used a different, but Lahman-compatible DB, they could follow whatever "history" is in that db? I ask because I've got Negro League and Japanese historical databases that are nearly ready for use, and would love to do something like this with, say, the history of Japanese baseball.

I don't see why not. As long as your DB has all the info that Lahman has I expect it would work like any other 3rd party db might. I look forward to trying it out.

[legendsport]

Originally Posted by kagnew35

Sounds like an awesome project, legendsports, can't wait for it to be released, any idea on timng?

Contemplate an international league structure with US, Japan, Cuba, Mexican divisions, hopefully the other countries will have RL db's soon as well

It'll be awhile. I've got a few projects running simultaneously - the Japan db, the Negro League db, and a Triple-A database as well. The Negro league one is closest to being "done" - probably by virtue of my using it in two online leagues and a dynasty, and there being less history, since it ends with 1950.

If I had to estimate when the Japanese db would be completely finished, I'd say 4Q of 2007.

[legendsport]

Originally Posted by Tiger Fan

I don't see why not. As long as your DB has all the info that Lahman has I expect it would work like any other 3rd party db might. I look forward to trying it out.

That's what I figured, but wanted to make sure. You'll be among the first to know when it's finished. After all, we've always helped each other out since our interests run along the same lines.

[84CubsFan]

Looking at the comparisons you've given, it seems almost like a DMB replay. Does the OOTP replay still create, for example, some star players who were mediocre in real life (or vice versa)? Not monster players who were cut short by injury in real life, but Doug Dascenzos who, through the magic of talent increases, end their careers with 3000 hits?

[Tiger Fan]

Originally Posted by Exodor

I'd love to know if my Royals managed more than their one real-life World Series win in your sim.

No, in fact they failed to win a World Series in my sim. The only Fall Classic appearance for the Royals came in 2006 when they lost to Atlanta in 6 games. I will have a little more on the Royals when I discuss all of the expansion teams later tonight.

Year	W	L	WPct	Finish	GB	Playoffs	
1969	70	92	.432	6th	21		
1970	57	105	.352	6th	42		
1971	61	101	.377	6th	36		
1972	69	93	.426	6th	33		
1973	78	84	.481	5th	17		
1974	68	94	.420	6th	31		
1975	76	86	.469	6th	23		
1976	82	80	.506	4th	17.5		
1977	84	78	.519	4th	9		
1978	74	88	.457	6th	19.5		
1979	75	87	.463	6th	25		
1980	87	75	.537	4th	10		
1981	81	81	.500	5th	15		
1982	90	72	.556	2nd	3		
1983	62	100	.383	7th	32		
1984	71	91	.438	6th	28		
1985	71	91	.438	6th	14		
1986	82	80	.506	3rd	10		
1987	95	67	.586	1st	-	X	
1988	96	66	.593	2nd	1		
1989	84	78	.519	3rd	15		
1990	94	68	.580	1st	-	X	
1991	84	78	.519	2nd	4		
1992	84	78	.519	4th	17		
1993	95	67	.586	2nd	7		
1994	74	88	.457	4th	25		
1995	73	89	.451	4th	29		
1996	91	72	.558	2nd	1		
1997	92	70	.568	1st	-	X	
1998	84	78	.519	2nd	2		
1999	94	68	.580	1st	-	X	
2000	88	74	.543	2nd	10	X	
2001	83	79	.512	3rd	13		
2002	89	73	.549	1st	-	X	
2003	98	64	.605	1st	-	X	
2004	79	83	.488	4th	8.5		
2005	85	77	.525	3rd	20		
2006	95	67	.586	1st	-	X	
Totals	3095	3062	.503			8

ROYALS CAREER LEADERS
[b]GAMES PLAYED{/b]
Rank Player 		G  
1. George Brett 	2771  
2. Rod Carew 		1987  
3. Kevin Seitzer 	1803  
4. Al Cowens 		1475  
5. Don Slaught 		1362 
6. Kevin McReynolds 	1334  
7. Ozzie Smith 		1302  
8. Jeff Conine 		1249  
9. Brian McRae 		1248  
10. Johnny Damon 	1235  

HITS
Rank Player		 H   
1. George Brett 	3312  
2. Rod Carew 		2487 
3. Kevin Seitzer 	1797 
4. Johnny Damon 	1383  
5. Don Slaught 		1369 
6. Willie Wilson 	1308 
7. Kevin McReynolds 	1285 
8. Al Cowens 		1281  
9. Carlos Beltran 	1223  
10. Ozzie Smith 	1207 

HOME RUNS
Rank Player 		HR 
1. George Brett 	317 
2. Carlos Beltran 	177 
3. Bo Jackson 		176 
4. Kevin McReynolds 	169 
5. Jon Nunnally 	139  
6. Mike Sweeney 	134  
7. Jeff Conine 		128 
8. Randy Johnson 	122  
9. Ruppert Jones 	121  
10. Sean Berry 		120 

CAREER WINS
Rank Player 		W    
1. Bret Saberhagen 	191   
2. David Cone 		190  
3. Paul Splittorff 	169  
4. Kevin Appier 	159  
5. Melido Perez		154   
6. Mark Gubicza 	151   
7. Rick Wise 		150 
8. Tom Gordon 		118  
9. Dennis Leonard 	110  
10. Al Fitzmorris 	105

[Tiger Fan]

Originally Posted by 84CubsFan

Looking at the comparisons you've given, it seems almost like a DMB replay. Does the OOTP replay still create, for example, some star players who were mediocre in real life (or vice versa)? Not monster players who were cut short by injury in real life, but Doug Dascenzos who, through the magic of talent increases, end their careers with 3000 hits?

Not very often will this happen with the recalculate mode. You will get some far outperform real life such as Royals pitcher Melido Perez (78-85 real life vs 177-137 this sim). Perez is probably not the best example but one I noticed from my last post on Kansas City.

For lack of a better phrase the recalculate mode can be considered very close to DMB type replays. I call it the Hall of Fame mode because it delivers far more realistic career paths. However, the old or if you prefer 'Classic' mode is still available and it will give you a chance to have a Cliff Markle (see my sig) type player develop.

I would expect most solo replayers will use the recalculate option but online leagues may greatly prefer the classic mode because of the unpredictability or randomness of career development.

To me, it gives the user the best of both worlds and allows you to play the way you want to.

[Sweed]

Thanks for the 84 Cub recap. Hadn't thought about not having Sandberg etc until you replied.

Your Royals recap has me curious about the Twins of the 60's-70's. How did the Royals get Carew? And how did the Twins fare in those two decades with the likes of Killebrew, Oliva, Allison, and Nettles?

[PotatoPeeler]

Originally Posted by Tiger Fan

2B Pat Tabler (.249,8,52)

Whoa... Pat Tabler. Now there's a blast from the past. And speaking of Greg Maddux, how did he fare? And how about Dale Murphy and Bob Horner as well. Thanks!

[ms2002]

I'm curious, how did Seattle do in the sim? What about Griffey?

[Kivlehan]

A thread such as this would not be complete without someone inquiring as to the historical replay performance of one Donald Arthur Mattingly. So there you have it. How'd he do?

[Dagrims]

Originally Posted by Tiger Fan

Here are the shortstops you asked for plus three more who were dominant defensively in Ozzie Smith,Appling and Aparicio

Is it mere coincidence that every one of those players had a sim career batting average lower than his real career batting average, or were your overall league averages less than in real-life?

[Craig Scarborough]

Originally Posted by Dagrims

Is it mere coincidence that every one of those players had a sim career batting average lower than his real career batting average, or were your overall league averages less than in real-life?

I noticed the same thing. HRs seemed low for every player as well.

[kagnew35]

Originally Posted by legendsport

dola,

I'm going to use the Japanese database for the "Greater Baseball Co-Prosperity Sphere" which is a dynasty thread dealing with the Axis powers winning WWII; I'm trying to time the dynasty to OOTP 2007's release so that when baseball resumes after the war (in a very different USA), I can put my Japan db to use.

I also have to admit, the only reason I mention the above is that I'm leaning strongly towards making GBCPS an online league and a little pub never hurts. Plus it'll be a way to see the Japan DB in action.

The dynasty's linked in my sig...

OOOPs, missed the mention of the possible online league. What kind of total structure are you considering?

US league too?, Cuba, Mexico????

[Tiger Fan]

Originally Posted by Dagrims

Is it mere coincidence that every one of those players had a sim career batting average lower than his real career batting average, or were your overall league averages less than in real-life?

I think for the most part it is coincidence but I will look at a bunch of other players at random to be sure. As far as the entire sim goes my batting average was almost bang on. Comparing sim hits to real life hits over 106 years and the sim hits came out to .9995 of the real life total. Keep in mind also that we are still fine tuning things and this is by no means the final release version I am testing right now. I will keep an eye on it and see if there is a pattern at all.

Edit -

To add to this I quickley checked a couple of players
some were above or at real life numbers
Griffey Jr sim .296 real life .291
George Brett sim .312 real life .305
Tony Oliva sim .304 real life .304

some were below
Carew .314 sim real life .328 105 homers in sim vs 92 homers in real life
Joe Morgan .265 sim real life .271 271 sim homers vs 268 real life homers

[legendsport]

Originally Posted by kagnew35

OOOPs, missed the mention of the possible online league. What kind of total structure are you considering?

US league too?, Cuba, Mexico????

Most likely just US & Japan, with cross-polination of players. Mexico has a role to play in the dynasty, and may provide a location for Negro League players - as could Cuba.

[Tiger Fan]

Originally Posted by Muppetus Galacticus

Who has been the most successful expansion team? Did you do anything with the expansion drafts and how did they turn out?

Houston has far and away been the best expansion team making 20 postseason appearances and winning 5 World Series. However, it took the Astros 12 years to make their first playoff appearance. In their first 4 seasons in a 10 team National League, Houston finished 8th twice and 9th the other two times.

By 1974 they had time to develop plenty of homegrown talent such as Cesar Cedeno, Bob Watson, Joe Morgan, Jimmy Wynn and Rusty Staub along with pitchers JR Richard and Ken Forsch. As a result it was the Big Rainbow Machine rather than the Big Red Machine that dominated the mid-70's. The Astros .544 franchise career winning percentage ranks 3rd behind only the Red Sox and the Cardinals.

As for the expansion drafts, I just let them play out on their own with each existing team protecting 25 players. None of the new teams enjoyed much early success. I did not save the expansion draft results but here is an example of one expansion teams lineup.

1977 SEATTLE MARINERS 53-109 
The Mariners finished dead last in the AL West for 6 straight
seasons and did not see postseason action until 1999.

Pos Player	  Age	 G	 AB	 R	 H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	 AVG
C  Bill Freehan	   35	138	558	59	153	24	3	 8	57	.274
1B Doug Ault	   27	144	507	55	125	20	1	13	60	.247
2B Julio Cruz	   22	139	545	66	145	28	5	 7	54	.266
3B Elliott Maddox  29	 89	315	50	 88	22	3	 1	28	.279
SS Rick Auerbach   27	 80	246	29	 53	 9	1	 5	20	.215
LF Rich Chiles	   27	146	521	58	124	24	4	 4	40	.238
CF Jimmy Wynn	   35	155	524	78	 97	17	1	13	62	.185
RF Merv Rettenmund 33	 89	328	34	 79	 7	2	 5	38	.241
DH Ken Macha	   26	 81	246	21	 52	12	1	 6	31	.211

SS Larry Bowa	   31	 61	281	23	62	7	2	 1	15	.221
LF Warren Cromartie23	 59	221	18	51	13	1	 1	15	.231
RF Willie Crawford 30	 61	213	24	60	16	2	 3	25	.282
C  John Ellis	   28	 53	196	21	51	11	1	 4	20	.260
LF Gene Locklear   27	 67	188	18	42	5	0	 4	24	.223
RF Tom Grieve	   29	 72	173	18	38	3	1	 8	23	.220
2B Tom Ragland	   30	 48	142	13	39	16	1	 2	23	.275
DH Bill Fahey	   26	 37	115	8	25	5	0	 0	 7	.217
DH Mike Hegan	   34	 33	111	6	24	0	0	 3	12	.216
SS Chris Speier	   26	 44	94	5	18	1	1	 1	 3	.191
RF Rich Coggins	   26	 45	80	7	14	4	0	 0	 7	.175
2B Jose Baez	   23	 13	33	3	7	1	0	 0	 4	.212
LF Tom Paciorek	   30	  6	23	3	6	1	1	 1	 3	.261


Player		Age	W-L	G   GS	SV	IP	 H	ER  HRA	BB  SO	ERA
Bill Hands	37	9-18	34  34	 0	218.1	246	100 25	54 128	4.12
Monty Montgomery30	8-18	31  31	 0	203.2	268	113 24	63 111	4.99
Gary Ross	29	11-8	23  23	 0	190.2	172	61  15	35 100	2.88
Jorge Rubio	32	3-13	32  21	 0	135.1	162	77  19	64 110	5.12
Nelson Briles	33	1-14	21  21	 0	146	187	86  18	41  72	5.30
Pete Broberg	27	5-7	29  10	 1	101.1	120	67  12	54  56	5.95
Bruce Von Hoff	33	3-4	10  10	 0	 63.1	78	33   8	28  24	4.69
Eric Raich	25	1-3	10   6	 0	 45	56	31  10	14  25	6.20
Juan Marichal	39	1-4	30   3	 0	 86.2	93	42   9	50  42	4.36
*Rick Honeycutt	22	1-1	3    3	 0	 22.1	17	10   4	 5  15	4.03
Dave Heaverlo	26	2-3	58   0	 1	 95.2	85	19   3	21  47	1.79
Bob Apodaca	27	3-4	52   0	16	 68.2	68	28   7	15  51	3.67
Enrique Romo	29	2-8	25   0	11	 24.1	41	29   8	13  26 10.73
Jim Willoughby	28	0-3	23   0	 1	 41.1	50	27   3	17  17	5.88
#Steve Burke	22	3-1	14   0	 0	 18	17	8    3	 7   7	4.00

The 77 Jays were very similiar to the M's. To me this looks like an expansion team roster. The only questionable players perhaps are Larry Bowa and Warren Cromartie. Bowa, I discovered was actually traded from Milwaukee to the Mariners in July for pitcher Nelson Briles. The move makes sense for the Brewers as it was done to make room for the return of Robin Yount, who had missed most of the previous season with an injury.

Cromartie was left unprotected in the draft by the Expos in likely a numbers game. Montreal had veteran Rico Carty along with youngsters Andre Dawson, Elis Valentine, Jerry White, Bombo Rivera and Pepe Mangual in the outfield.

[Tiger Fan]

Originally Posted by darkenigma510

When playing did you notice the difference between 80s baseball and late90s baseball in terms of power and offence?

Just like in OOTP2006 the league modifiers are designed to give as realistic as possible league totals so yes, there was more offense in the 90's than in the 80's.

This chart should provide an example:

Hitters with 50 or more homers by decade
YRS	       SIM  REAL LIFE
1900-09		0	0
1910-19		0	0
1920-29		4	4
1930-39		2	4
1940-49		2	3
1950-59		5	2
1960-69		4	3	
1970-79		3	1	
1980-89		1	0
1990-99	       30      12				
2000-06		9      10

Something to keep in mind for the 1990's discrepancy. In 1994 I had 9 players hit at least 50 homers while because of the labour dispute the real life majors had no one hit 50. In the sim there was no labour dispute of course.

Also, iIn the sim during the 90's 15 players hit either 50 or 51 homers. I had injuries turned on but set to low so if injuries were at normal perhaps a few of those 15 might not have reached 50.

[Tiger Fan]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Thanks for the 84 Cub recap. Hadn't thought about not having Sandberg etc until you replied.

Your Royals recap has me curious about the Twins of the 60's-70's. How did the Royals get Carew? And how did the Twins fare in those two decades with the likes of Killebrew, Oliva, Allison, and Nettles?

The Twins got taken, that's how. In December 1970 Carew was 24 and coming off a season where he hit .338. The Twins dealt him to the Royals for outfielder Richie Scheinblum. Scheinblum was 26 and did hit in the .290's for 3 seasons with the Twins but Carew would go on to win 5 batting titles including 1973 when he hit a career best .373. For his career, Scheinblum hit .275 in 803 games. In real life he hit .263 in 462 games.

There are two possible reasons I can think of that the Twins made this deal. The most likely one is money. I had the auto-inflation option turned on but did not allow players to become free agents. Minnesota's payroll took a big jump between 1968 and 1972 while the team's cash balance was climbing quite high in the negatives. The Twins were building a contender, and did in fact win division titles in 1971 and 1972 so it paid off at least in the short term.

Reason number two is the Twins had more depth in the infield than they did in the outfield. After the trade of Carew, Harmon Killebrew moved back to second base for a season or two (although he was anything but a gold glover) because they had no where else to play him. Don Mincher was enjoying some productive seasons at first base deserved full-time duty as did young Graig Nettles at third. Rookie Steve Braun stepped in at shortstop with Jim Holt, Danny Thompson and Zolio Versailles adding depth. The outfield had 3 decent starters in Pat Kelley, Tony Oliva and Cesar Tovar but there was a need for a spare outfielder so that may have influenced the decision to acquire Sheinblum.

As for the Twins franchise, well, just like the Cubs they have never won a World Series dating back to their start in Washington in 1901. They have made 9 postseason appearances including 1963, 1971, 1972, 1981, 1988 and 1999 while in Minnesota.

The 1963 club likely should have been World Champion but they lost to underdog Cincinnati in 5 games. That year the Twins had Jim Kaat (25-8) and Jack Kralick (19-7) on the mound along with plenty of power in Killebrew (.257,39,103), Jimmie Hall (.265,38,112), Tony Oliva (.319,31,111) and Don Mincher (.227,27,75). The Reds barely held off the Dodgers and Braves to win the NL pennant. Vada Pinson (.354,32,96) had an MVP season but many other Reds had subpar years offensively, such as Frank Robinson (.244,15,72) and rookie Pete Rose (.253,6,39). Jim O'Toole (22-10) was their only outstanding hurler but he tossed two complete game shutouts in the series. Veteran Joe Nuxhall (14-9) also silenced the Twins bats with a postseason shutout that year.

The 1971 club finished with 97 wins, 10 more the East Division champion New York but the Yankees won the ALCS in 3 straight games. In 1972 the Twins tied a franchise record (set in 1963) with 102 victories and breezed past Boston in the ALCS only to fall to Atlanta in 6 games in the World Series. Oliva (.317,25,91) and Nettles (.265,15,65) were still in their prime but age was beginning to slow down the production of sluggers Killebrew (.248,16,68) and Mincher (.260,12,54). Young pitchers Bert Blyleven (20-7, 2.36) and Dave Goltz (18-5, 2.59) provided hope for the future but it would be 9 years before the Twins would play in the postseason again.

Killebrew would be dispatched to San Diego following the 1972 season. He would hit just 7 homers in 2 seasons with the Padres and finish his career with 506. MVP in 1970, Killebrew also made 6 allstar teams.

Oliva would spend his entire 16 season career in Minnesota and just like in real life he would finish with a .304 batting average for his career. Oliva also hit 291 homers, while in real life he had 220. He won a rookie of the year award, 1 MVP, 2 gold gloves and made 8 trips to the allstar game in the sim.

Nettles would be dealt from Minnesota to Montreal prior to the 1975 season in exchange for pitcher Balor Moore and catcher Charlie Sands. He also had brief stints in Houston and with the Texas Rangers. For his career Nettles would play in 2581 games and bat .254 with 377 homers. Those numbers compare very nicely to real life totals of 2700 games, 390 homers and a .248 career batting average. Nettles also won a gold glove and made 4 allstar teams in the sim.

I made no mention of the final player you asked about, Bob Allison, because he was dealt from the Senators to the Boston Red Sox following his rookie season of 1959. Allison hit .245 with 262 homers in 1787 games. Real life numbers were 1541 games played, .255 average and 256 homers. His sim batting average would compare much better to real life had he not hung around 3 years longer than in real life, going 57-for-328 (.173) with 7 homers in that span.