My final thoughts on the preview

[swampdragon]

Thanks for the information. I'm also interested in your AAA database, but that's probably another thread.

It looks like 1886 might be a decent starting point. That's the first year of The Sporting News, which has box scores for the AAA (equivalent) leagues. I can even manually import the major leaguers that were in AAA at the time and place them on the proper teams. Gus Weyhing was the opening day starter for the Charleston Seagulls, for example.

[Kyros]

Originally Posted by Muppetus Galacticus

Thanks for the report legendsport! All these positive preview posts make the wait even more unbearable.

As for what league you should try first, my vote goes for 1946. Only because one of my early leagues will start there with MLB and USSR leagues.

Dude I will tell you right now, OOTPBB2007 is GRAND. I really can not put into words how far this game has come, esp from 2006. Like others said, it is 6.5 but with much better AI and all the features have returned from 6.5 plus it is loaded and I mean frickin' loaded with new features and additions. The interface is much better in regards navigation. Those of you who loved 6.5 will love 2007 but in addition we all will see and feel a great experience that we've never been given the opportunity to ever see or feel prior to this.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by legendsport

The schedule is a bit of a bear. I must defer to the acknowledged grand master of the schedule, LGO, for a definitive answer on the best way to knock together a schedule using Retrosheet. I know that he has a bunch of seasons, including 19th century stuff, that'd he probably be willing to share if you asked.

1877-1900 original schedules for the major leagues is not a problem, including the UA and PL. They do need to be converted over to OOTP2007's format though.

There were no original schedules for the 1871-75 time period; the clubs pretty much arranged their games as the season went along. One could probably come up with some sort of full schedule based on the as played schedules. I've read conflicting sources as to whether or not 1876 had a published schedule or not; I've never found one anywhere so adapting the as played schedule would have to be done for that season as well.

The years with the odd number of clubs, i.e. the 1884 UA and 1890-91 AA, aren't a problem. You can either play out the original schedule with the original number of teams, or use an adjusted schedule for those seasons. What really happened in those seasons is that after a team dropped out, the incoming team then took over the departed team's schedule. So that's easy to recreate (though it would mean a club would play for the first part of the season and then not play afterwards, while the incoming team would be idle for the first part of the season and then play the latter part).

[legendsport]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

Thanks for the information. I'm also interested in your AAA database, but that's probably another thread.

It looks like 1886 might be a decent starting point. That's the first year of The Sporting News, which has box scores for the AAA (equivalent) leagues. I can even manually import the major leaguers that were in AAA at the time and place them on the proper teams. Gus Weyhing was the opening day starter for the Charleston Seagulls, for example.

You're right. I'll probably post something about that database as it nears completion. You can PM me if you have specific questions.

I agree about 1886 - a great place to start. Now that Paper of Record is free more folks will have access to the old info - though some of it can be hard to read. Those of us who've paid for subscriptions for years, like myself, are a little put off because we can't search unlimitedly any longer, but free access is quite a boon in general. If you have any of Marshall Wright's books, he's got stats for the International League, Texas League and Southern Association, which all started right around 1886 (give or take a couple of years). The PCL and modern American Assoc. didn't start til after the turn of the century, but there were plenty of minor leagues operating in the 1880-1900 era.

That's the problem with the new sim - there are about a million things I'd love to do, but time is always limited so I have to pick and choose. It's a great problem to have though.

I love the 19th century and deadball eras - to be honest I love baseball history in general. I can find something about any era to love, but my personal fave is probably the postwar era - Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, and all that. All before my time, but that's the beauty of OOTP - nothing is before our time any longer.

[Curtis]

Do you know whether the International Association of the 1870s became the International League?

I was reading "The Rookie Encyclopedia" last night, and it said that the National League almost folded in 1877 and again in 1878. It survived by poaching a team from the IA and adding a couple from the independent minors. By the start of the 1879 campaign the NL was looking so weak that the IA was making plans to declare themselves 'major' as soon as the NL 'inevitably' collapsed, but the NL survived by incorporating the two strongest IA clubs (Syracuse and Buffalo).

Did the IA survive this poaching and evolve into the IL that we know and love today, or did it fold, leaving naught behind but its name?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by legendsport

Now that Paper of Record is free more folks will have access to the old info - though some of it can be hard to read. Those of us who've paid for subscriptions for years, like myself, are a little put off because we can't search unlimitedly any longer, but free access is quite a boon in general.

Agreed. Yes, it's a bit annoying when you hit the 100 download limit, but since all one has to do is wait until the next day to continue, that more than makes up for not having to pay a subscription anymore.

Originally Posted by legendsport

If you have any of Marshall Wright's books, he's got stats for the International League, Texas League and Southern Association, which all started right around 1886 (give or take a couple of years).

I've got the International League book, and it's pretty good. I do with it covered more years than it does, and that it had a few more stats categories. But overall it's a good reference work to have around.

Originally Posted by Curtis

Do you know whether the International Association of the 1870s became the International League?

No, it didn't. Two entirely different outfits.

The origins of the International League are generally described as starting in 1884 with the creation of the Eastern League. Clubs from the 1885-86 New York State League and 1885 Ontario League later joined forces to create the International Association in 1886. In 1887, a couple of clubs from the folded Eastern League then joined the IA. About half-way through the 1890 season the IA ceased operating. It reorganized itself and, with the departure of the Canadian-based clubs, became the Eastern Association in 1891. In 1892 the league changed its name to Eastern League, and in 1912 the name was changed again to International League.

[legendsport]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I've got the International League book, and it's pretty good. I do with it covered more years than it does, and that it had a few more stats categories. But overall it's a good reference work to have around.

I've got the IL book, Texas League and Southern Association. I'm missing the American Association book and it's been killing me. For - literally - years, I've been trying to get my hands on a copy. It's out of print and apparently all the copies have made it into the hands of hard-core historical stat geeks like myself and let me tell you, I wouldn't sell my IL, TL or SA books, so I'm not optimistic about getting a copy.

The worst part is that it's going to put a major crimp in my AAA database project to not have that book because trying to cull complete stats out of Paper of Record's Sporting News collection is sometimes like trying to build sand castles without water.

On the bright side, I do have pretty much all the Sporting News Guides from 1943 onwards, so those years I can - eventually - have in the database.

[Cooleyvol]

legendsport, what are the complete names of those four books? I'd like to try to at least get the three that you have.

[legendsport]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

legendsport, what are the complete names of those four books? I'd like to try to at least get the three that you have.

The International League, 1884-1953
The Southern Association in Baseball, 1885-1961
The Texas League in Baseball, 1888-1958

all are by Marshall D. Wright

He also just put out a book on the Eastern League. I haven't picked it up yet, but plan on grabbing it.

If you've ever seen the Neft & Cohen Baseball Encyclopedia, these are similar to that: short text recaps of each season followed by basic hitting and pitching stats, organized by team. Some of the players will only have number of games and their positions, while others will have most of the "basic" stats. A very solid reference source, especially for the really old stuff which is hard to find otherwise.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by legendsport

On the bright side, I do have pretty much all the Sporting News Guides from 1943 onwards, so those years I can - eventually - have in the database.

Really? Well, in that case, I may have to send a couple of questions your way. There are some minor league schedules I'm missing, and those TSN Guides you have might very well have them listed.

Also, did you hear the news that The Sporting News will no longer be publishing its annual Guide anymore?

[darkcloud4579]

It's great to hear such good things!

[legendsport]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Really? Well, in that case, I may have to send a couple of questions your way. There are some minor league schedules I'm missing, and those TSN Guides you have might very well have them listed.

Also, did you hear the news that The Sporting News will no longer be publishing its annual Guide anymore?

They might - just PM me anything you need and I'll check when I get back home from spring training Monday.

I didn't hear that about TSN no longer publishing the guides. That'll be a shame; they've done it every year for almost 70 years. At least BA will, I guess, continue to put out the Almanac, which covers the same info.

[Autism Speaks]

Thanks for the info, legendsport.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by legendsport

They might - just PM me anything you need and I'll check when I get back home from spring training Monday.

Great, thanks.

Originally Posted by legendsport

I didn't hear that about TSN no longer publishing the guides. That'll be a shame; they've done it every year for almost 70 years. At least BA will, I guess, continue to put out the Almanac, which covers the same info.

The subject came up on the SABR-L listserv when someone mentioned the Guides weren't being published anymore and wanting suggestions as to other places which might have the complete minor league statistics.

[legendsport]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

The subject came up on the SABR-L listserv when someone mentioned the Guides weren't being published anymore and wanting suggestions as to other places which might have the complete minor league statistics.

Hmm. I'm a SABR member and get the SABR-L digest. I guess it was in one of them that I didn't read all the way through. I also get the Deadball committee stuff and there are days where I just don't manage to get 'em both read.

I've spent several years and a LOT of money on EBay buying the old guides. I need two books to have the full run from 1943-82. In the 80s and 90s I have a mixture of Guides and BA Almanacs, sometimes both from a given season. Eventually I hope to have every year covered back to 1942. Before then you get into the Spalding Guides and those things might as well be made of gold for the prices you get for them on Ebay. That's why I love Wright's books - they fill in the early years nicely, and he keeps on churning them out.

[darkenigma510]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Great, thanks.

The subject came up on the SABR-L listserv when someone mentioned the Guides weren't being published anymore and wanting suggestions as to other places which might have the complete minor league statistics.

The Baseball America Guide is great

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by legendsport

Hmm. I'm a SABR member and get the SABR-L digest. I guess it was in one of them that I didn't read all the way through. I also get the Deadball committee stuff and there are days where I just don't manage to get 'em both read.

I didn't know you were a SABR member. Which reminds me, I've got to renew my membership!

I think I only noticed the messages because of the subject headlines. I seem to recall someone from TSN posting on the listserv to confirm that TSN would no longer be publishing Guides.

Originally Posted by legendsport

I've spent several years and a LOT of money on EBay buying the old guides. I need two books to have the full run from 1943-82. In the 80s and 90s I have a mixture of Guides and BA Almanacs, sometimes both from a given season.

Very nice collection! I ordered online some past issues of the Baseball America Directory since they include the minor league schedules. I picked up the 1989, 1991, 1998 and 1999 Directories. Those were inexpensive, fortunately.

[legendsport]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I didn't know you were a SABR member. Which reminds me, I've got to renew my membership!

Yep, and I've seen you post on SABR-L too. You helped me out with some schedules for 1891, I think it was, way back when via PM here on these boards. I've never posted on SABR-L, though I read it almost every day. Just as here on the OOTP forums, I tend to read much, much more than I post, although the excitement of OOTP 2007 has me posting at - for me - a fever pitch.

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I think I only noticed the messages because of the subject headlines. I seem to recall someone from TSN posting on the listserv to confirm that TSN would no longer be publishing Guides.

Very nice collection! I ordered online some past issues of the Baseball America Directory since they include the minor league schedules. I picked up the 1989, 1991, 1998 and 1999 Directories. Those were inexpensive, fortunately.

Yep - BA's various publications are great. I do video stuff for MLB.com, primarily covering the minors the last year or so, and I see a ton of scouts with the directory poking out of their back pockets.

[swampdragon]

I just spent a bunch of $$ on Marshall Wright books at Amazon. I think I'm going to blame this thread.

[legendsport]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

I just spent a bunch of $$ on Marshall Wright books at Amazon. I think I'm going to blame this thread.

Yeah, it has kind of turned into a commercial for his books. I should email him and ask for some kind of a kickback