There's No Snoop Dog in Baseball

[Mister Bogart]

I thought of many titles for this thread and I am going to try and not make a rant, but I am so ticked off at the corporate nerds that I have to get it off my chest. Basically...this year's group of "trash" that the corporate nerds put out is a sign that mainstream baseball console efforts are just going to continue to get worse and that they really just don't get it...

By the corporate nerds...I am referring to the people who make what mainstream America is supposed to be accepting as Sports video games. These are the efforts that have been hijacked by the consoles and have systematically stopped producing quality titles for the pc. They care more about what someone can rent for a week and get sick of...than what someone will buy and actually enjoy. The reason I refer to them as nerds is not because of their academic skill but rather there complete dungeon master lack of knowledge in sports and thus proving they were getting wedgies from the very people in the games they are trying to produce.

These braniacs would rather give us games where we can shoot hookers or replay World War II than create a decent sports game, so when we do actually get their yearly "obiglatory" effort...we end up with a game with fancy menus and for some bizarre reason...songs that sound like what you will hear in the parking lot of Wal-mart jamming from the back of some 14 year-olds car at full blast. Nothing says baseball like Snoop Dog.

The big question I have as of late is when did the consumers abandon this market? I know we all get older and that eventually they stop making things like they used to...but when did we all stop buying decent sports games? I was always willing to throw out my money each year for the next version of games if they actually got better...and listening to everyone on here give their timeline lists, it appears we all continued to support the genre. My only assumption is that they stopped wanting to make these games. Perhaps the nerds finally got into power and said...screw the jocks...let's make decent war strategy games and see if we can support our habit by getting then to buy the latest rehashed crap every year.

Perhaps the more realistic idea is that the consoles have killed sports gaming. The quest for seeing the sweat on Derek Jeter's brow has forced everyone to lose sight of the fact that it matters that the game actually looks and feels like baseball. I hardly feel like adding Ty Cobb to my team if everytime I go to a sub menu, I feel like I should be trying to protect him from getting shot by a pimp in the latest edition of GTA. It really makes you wonder if the guys that found their career on those G4 commercials ever play some of these console baseball games and say...this is really lame.

There have been some cool things on console games before. The career mode is kinda fun on some of them, but it is hardly interesting when you realize that you are going to see the same postgame animations for over 300 games before you make the big leagues. When EA had a franchise they had some cool stadium histories where you could actually take a historical tour of the Astrodome...at least someone had a concept that baseball actually has a history. The rest of the stuff they have produced has become a version of the NBA on the MLB, where they think we really care about what color a batting glove is...or what type of shoe someone is wearing.

I guess I am on this rant because I actually bought a console game the other day. Sometimes I want to get into the game and play, like I did back in the days of Hardball, and Tony Larussa...and even Real Sports Atari Baseball. When I think of all the information they can put on a playstation or xbox disc...it really ticks me off that they waste so much of it with sweat and hip-hop. Why didn't games continue to get better with the development of this new technology? Instead...the graphics have gotten better and the gaming experience has continued to get worse...and worse..and worse. Then I go on-line and read these reviews where these crappy games get 9.5 and 10...and you wonder...doesn't anyone expect more from baseball games than better graphics?

So....what does all this have to do with OOTP Baseball? I think this March 23 is going to be one of the most anticipated ones for me in a long time. I have been buying and playing baseball video games since I was in the fifth grade...and well...the baseball video game is almost dead. If it is not already dead...it is definitely flatlining. This community...the OOTP, the Puresim, the others...these are the only hope to keep this genre alive and rebuild the possibility that Sports games will have a shot. Maybe if games like OOTP continue to succeed...someone will figure out that we actually will buy decent sports games for the pc....and a good American football game will come around...

We never stopped caring about Baseball games...they did...and they saddest thing about it...we have all this money to spend...and they don't want it.

Thanks Markus...for keeping the hope alive...and here's to continuing to strive to make your product as good as it can be.

- Snoop Bogie Bogue

[treedom]

Originally Posted by Mister Bogart

By the corporate nerds...I am referring to the people who make what mainstream America is supposed to be accepting as Sports video games. These are the efforts that have been hijacked by the consoles and have systematically stopped producing quality titles for the pc. They care more about what someone can rent for a week and get sick of [citation needed]...than what someone will buy and actually enjoy. The reason I refer to them as nerds is not because of their academic skill but rather there complete dungeon master lack of knowledge in sports and thus proving they were getting wedgies from the very people in the games they are trying to produce. [citation needed]

These braniacs would rather give us games where we can shoot hookers or replay World War II than create a decent sports game [citation needed], so when we do actually get their yearly "obiglatory" effort...we end up with a game with fancy menus and for some bizarre reason...songs that sound like what you will hear in the parking lot of Wal-mart jamming from the back of some 14 year-olds car at full blast. Nothing says baseball like Snoop Dog. [citation needed]

.

[Joe Canadian]

I really don't understand what your apparent dislike for hip-hop has to do with console game designers making good or bad baseball games. The problem with mainstream video games is that the people who buy them want fancy graphics before accurate stats... it's the consumers that demand these games, it's not the "nerds" who design them trying to force "the rap" down our throats.

[Oxydizer]

Mister Bogart makes a good point. If you make a baseball game where there are always blood spilling fights, beanballs and players hitting each other over the heads with bats, then the kids will buy them, I just hope OOTP doesn't go this way. There is noting finer then a good ole' fashioned game of baseball. Oh and please, please get rid of them long baseball pants and go back to the leggin's and stockings, they look terrible. And quit leaving the back pocket lining hanging out, that looks so stupid. How's about a little respect for the game.....Sorry if I got a little off track here, been wanting to let that out for a while.

[swampdragon]

There are more buyers for that kind of game than there are of us. We're a niche market. Be grateful that a few companies in the sports genre still cater to players that don't like the reflex-intensive games. I don't care whether those games play hip-hop or Beethoven, because I'm not buying them anyway. (And if OOTP goes to hip-hop, I'm turning the sound off)

[rocknfire7]

Originally Posted by Mister Bogart

I thought of many titles for this thread and I am going to try and not make a rant, but I am so ticked off at the corporate nerds that I have to get it off my chest. Basically...this year's group of "trash" that the corporate nerds put out is a sign that mainstream baseball console efforts are just going to continue to get worse and that they really just don't get it...

By the corporate nerds...I am referring to the people who make what mainstream America is supposed to be accepting as Sports video games. These are the efforts that have been hijacked by the consoles and have systematically stopped producing quality titles for the pc. They care more about what someone can rent for a week and get sick of...than what someone will buy and actually enjoy. The reason I refer to them as nerds is not because of their academic skill but rather there complete dungeon master lack of knowledge in sports and thus proving they were getting wedgies from the very people in the games they are trying to produce.

These braniacs would rather give us games where we can shoot hookers or replay World War II than create a decent sports game, so when we do actually get their yearly "obiglatory" effort...we end up with a game with fancy menus and for some bizarre reason...songs that sound like what you will hear in the parking lot of Wal-mart jamming from the back of some 14 year-olds car at full blast. Nothing says baseball like Snoop Dog.

The big question I have as of late is when did the consumers abandon this market? I know we all get older and that eventually they stop making things like they used to...but when did we all stop buying decent sports games? I was always willing to throw out my money each year for the next version of games if they actually got better...and listening to everyone on here give their timeline lists, it appears we all continued to support the genre. My only assumption is that they stopped wanting to make these games. Perhaps the nerds finally got into power and said...screw the jocks...let's make decent war strategy games and see if we can support our habit by getting then to buy the latest rehashed crap every year.

Perhaps the more realistic idea is that the consoles have killed sports gaming. The quest for seeing the sweat on Derek Jeter's brow has forced everyone to lose sight of the fact that it matters that the game actually looks and feels like baseball. I hardly feel like adding Ty Cobb to my team if everytime I go to a sub menu, I feel like I should be trying to protect him from getting shot by a pimp in the latest edition of GTA. It really makes you wonder if the guys that found their career on those G4 commercials ever play some of these console baseball games and say...this is really lame.

There have been some cool things on console games before. The career mode is kinda fun on some of them, but it is hardly interesting when you realize that you are going to see the same postgame animations for over 300 games before you make the big leagues. When EA had a franchise they had some cool stadium histories where you could actually take a historical tour of the Astrodome...at least someone had a concept that baseball actually has a history. The rest of the stuff they have produced has become a version of the NBA on the MLB, where they think we really care about what color a batting glove is...or what type of shoe someone is wearing.

I guess I am on this rant because I actually bought a console game the other day. Sometimes I want to get into the game and play, like I did back in the days of Hardball, and Tony Larussa...and even Real Sports Atari Baseball. When I think of all the information they can put on a playstation or xbox disc...it really ticks me off that they waste so much of it with sweat and hip-hop. Why didn't games continue to get better with the development of this new technology? Instead...the graphics have gotten better and the gaming experience has continued to get worse...and worse..and worse. Then I go on-line and read these reviews where these crappy games get 9.5 and 10...and you wonder...doesn't anyone expect more from baseball games than better graphics?

So....what does all this have to do with OOTP Baseball? I think this March 23 is going to be one of the most anticipated ones for me in a long time. I have been buying and playing baseball video games since I was in the fifth grade...and well...the baseball video game is almost dead. If it is not already dead...it is definitely flatlining. This community...the OOTP, the Puresim, the others...these are the only hope to keep this genre alive and rebuild the possibility that Sports games will have a shot. Maybe if games like OOTP continue to succeed...someone will figure out that we actually will buy decent sports games for the pc....and a good American football game will come around...

We never stopped caring about Baseball games...they did...and they saddest thing about it...we have all this money to spend...and they don't want it.

Thanks Markus...for keeping the hope alive...and here's to continuing to strive to make your product as good as it can be.

- Snoop Bogie Bogue

Originally Posted by Oxydizer

Mister Bogart makes a good point. If you make a baseball game where there are always blood spilling fights, beanballs and players hitting each other over the heads with bats, then the kids will buy them, I just hope OOTP doesn't go this way. There is noting finer then a good ole' fashioned game of baseball. Oh and please, please get rid of them long baseball pants and go back to the leggin's and stockings, they look terrible. And quit leaving the back pocket lining hanging out, that looks so stupid. How's about a little respect for the game.....Sorry if I got a little off track here, been wanting to let that out for a while.

Amen!!

[swampdragon]

Maybe the game should have different theme anthems according what era we're playing in. Now there's an idea for OOTP2010. What tunes were popular in 1901, anyway?

[redranger]

I personally think this is one of the best posts that I have ever read. Very well stated Mister Bogart.

[Orunje]

Originally Posted by Mister Bogart

I thought of many titles for this thread and I am going to try and not make a rant, but I am so ticked off at the corporate nerds that I have to get it off my chest. Basically...this year's group of "trash" that the corporate nerds put out is a sign that mainstream baseball console efforts are just going to continue to get worse and that they really just don't get it...

I concur

[Raidergoo]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

Maybe the game should have different theme anthems according what era we're playing in. Now there's an idea for OOTP2010. What tunes were popular in 1901, anyway?

This supposes way too much. There was no radio. The phonograph was bleeding edge stuff. A wiki quote:

By the mid-1890s, most American cities had at least one phonograph parlor.

Here's a tune from 1906. Lyrics have come a long way, huh?

http://ia311509.us.archive.org/2/ite...i-162_64kb.mp3

More choices here

http://www.archive.org/details/cylindertransfer

[JHruska]

Originally Posted by Mister Bogart

The big question I have as of late is when did the consumers abandon this market? I know we all get older and that eventually they stop making things like they used to...but when did we all stop buying decent sports games? I was always willing to throw out my money each year for the next version of games if they actually got better...and listening to everyone on here give their timeline lists, it appears we all continued to support the genre. My only assumption is that they stopped wanting to make these games.

Have you ever seen any demographical marketing studies from an advertising agency? According to those hacks, the group to court is the 14-24 age range (or something like that; it might be 13-23, or 15-25. My memory isn't so great anymore.). Basically, they claim that once you pass that age, you're so set in your ways that you will continue to use the same brands in perpetuity until the Alzheimer's makes you forget which ones you prefer, but that the kids in that range will see a commercial and be so swayed by it that they will want to run out and buy the product immediately. So now everyone creates their products, ads, television shows, and movies with that age bracket in mind.
I believe the shallowness, ease, fewer hours of game play, and general stupidity and annoyingness of modern games are all more of the same.

[Mister Bogart]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

I really don't understand what your apparent dislike for hip-hop has to do with console game designers making good or bad baseball games. The problem with mainstream video games is that the people who buy them want fancy graphics before accurate stats... it's the consumers that demand these games, it's not the "nerds" who design them trying to force "the rap" down our throats.

Actually that is kinda the question I have...do the consumers really want this junk or is something else driving the market. Would a statistically accurate baseball game with great graphics bomb? Are they not producing good sports games because they think they won't sell or because they don't have to produce good games...because they can get away with selling bad games because no one ever complains....

I know that all markets are based on consumers and all that...I am just voicing my frustration...because somewhere along the way...I moved into the minority....and it sure seems like I have a lot more money to spend then when I was in this "majority"

My problem isn't really with hip-hop music...it is more of a reference to the way that console baseball games have started to try and look like they are some how making baseball as trendy as the NBA has become.

I guess it is an aquired taste...maybe they will make a game next with Babe Ruth becoming anorexic or Lou Gherig coming down with SARS just to make baseball more "modern"....and of course it will end up in the 5.00 bin at blockbuster with all this other junk...

[Mister Bogart]

By the corporate nerds...I am referring to the people who make what mainstream America is supposed to be accepting as Sports video games. These are the efforts that have been hijacked by the consoles and have systematically stopped producing quality titles for the pc. They care more about what someone can rent for a week and get sick of [see footnote 17-4b page 13]...than what someone will buy and actually enjoy. The reason I refer to them as nerds is not because of their academic skill but rather there complete dungeon master lack of knowledge in sports and thus proving they were getting wedgies from the very people in the games they are trying to produce. [736 pg. 73, appendix 15]

These braniacs would rather give us games where we can shoot hookers or replay World War II than create a decent sports game [The Gamers Guide to Hooker Killing and World War II genre shooters, page 16], so when we do actually get their yearly "obiglatory" effort...we end up with a game with fancy menus and for some bizarre reason...songs that sound like what you will hear in the parking lot of Wal-mart jamming from the back of some 14 year-olds car at full blast. Nothing says baseball like Snoop Dog. [Snoop's latest CD, Chillin at the Ballpark, Song 3]

Yeah...I should have prefaced...this is all just my opinion...a very negative way to say...I love OOTP Baseball....the way only a killer clown can...This is what happens when you hear the slow drum of March 23....beating in the back of your head...they are coming to take me away....ha ha....coming to take me away....

[ChuckkieB]

It's all about supply and demand. The general gaming public is clearly more interested in primo graphics, MTV perpetuated music, and all of the other bells and whistles, and that's exactly what the gamemakers give them. You can't blame them for that at all.

Even though I crave a realistic baseball game and so do most of the people that frequent this board, once we step outside our nice little comfort zone here, it's quite easy to recognize that we are sadly in the minority in the gaming community.

As long as OOTP continues to deliver the goods, I'm good.

[Matches]

Originally Posted by Mister Bogart

Actually that is kinda the question I have...do the consumers really want this junk or is something else driving the market. Would a statistically accurate baseball game with great graphics bomb? Are they not producing good sports games because they think they won't sell or because they don't have to produce good games...because they can get away with selling bad games because no one ever complains....

Well, I haven't ever bought a console baseball game. I've done it for football, basketball, and hockey. Your OP's stated beefs all deal withbells and whistles rather than the lack of statistical accuracy, "Instead...the graphics have gotten better and the gaming experience has continued to get worse...and worse..and worse."

I don't know for sure that the latest console game is statistically inaccurate. I strive for this when playing console games in other sports and spend lots of time tweaking things to get something close to my perception of real.

To answer your question, "Would a statistically accurate game with great graphics bomb?" quite simply, of course not. Let's assume that to appeal to "kids these days" you need certain things: Derek Jeter's sweat is one. Customizable batting gloves is another. It is clearly possible to include this on current-generation console games and marketers have decided it's necessary. I think it is very safe to say that they could also increase the "accuracy" of their baseball games (assuming it's as inaccurate as you say), but it comes to ecomonics. If EA can push $x million worth of MLB2kWhatever as is, do they really need to bother spending the extra money it would take to make the game more "accurate" if it is only going to generate a small increase in sales? Particularly when there is little (or no) competition?

Once you've modelled batting gloves, it strikes me as pretty darn easy to get them to change color. How long's Markus been at it and still encountering stumbling blocks?

You are right. With new consoles have come a greater focus on graphics. This is what you see at your friend's house when he shows you the game he just bought. It's what you see in the store on the little demo display box they have. It's what they show on the TV commercials. It is, quite simply, what sells the game. Keep in mind on PC games you can try before you buy a lot. Demos and whatnot allow gamers to get beyond whatever stimulating visuals a game offers and get more into the guts of the game itself. A console game has one chance to hook a buyer and that's with graphics.

Sorry for the length, but here's my last point, a theory. When graphics were lacking, we were willing to forgive a lot. Earl Weaver Baseball, as far as I was concerned, came down not from Electronic Arts but from the heavens themselves. As graphics get more detailed we become more and more immersed in how "real" the game looks, that along with such incredible realism comes a very disappointing disconnect with how "not real" a game plays. Example - EWB had some weird quirks, but they never bothered me too much. When I tried to play Hardball 4 I absolutely couldn't get over how the infielders all threw with their left hand. Nevermind that EWB didn't even take into account which hand the fielders were, my friends and I hated Hardball because the fielders all threw left handed.

We can put anybody's face on incredibly realistic player models today, but I still can't find a basketball game that feels and flows like an actual basketball GAME. Fundamentally it's miles ahead of Double Dribble, but because the game looks so real, I end up disappointed in every unrealistic facet of how it plays.

[Zitofan75]

Originally Posted by ChuckkieB

It's all about supply and demand. The general gaming public is clearly more interested in primo graphics, MTV perpetuated music, and all of the other bells and whistles, and that's exactly what the gamemakers give them. You can't blame them for that at all.

Even though I crave a realistic baseball game and so do most of the people that frequent this board, once we step outside our nice little comfort zone here, it's quite easy to recognize that we are sadly in the minority in the gaming community.

As long as OOTP continues to deliver the goods, I'm good.

Bingo. A realistic game of any genre requires work, intelligence, and patience not just on the maker but on the consumer. OOTP is too complex and deep for many. I'm not saying they're idiots or that somehow I have some deeper intelligense but I think many people want their entertainment to be easy with a minimum of thinking and effort on their part. OOTP is not a casual game where you can fire it up and hit a few dingers over the wall. It's a game that attempts to be a serious model of the sport it represents.

Grognards deal with the same thing. I played War in the Pacific which played out the whole pacific theater of WW2. Day by day. 60 mile hexes. Indivdual ships, air squadrons, and battalions. Commanders of the units were tracked. Often, your day involved moving around supplies for offensives or outlying outposts. Many of us loved the game but sales were still tiny. Playing the game required you to A) know something of the history of the war, B) know what the different types of weapons did, C) have an interest and appreciation of what the real commanders on both sides faced. It was a demanding game and we realized that most gamers seemed to prefer an RTS where they could lasso a bunch of units (often quite generic units at that) and hurl them off in a direction. Instant gratification.

I tend to believe that if most baseball game players wanted OOTP then we'd have console games with all the features of OOTP and Markus would have 40 people working for him, programming away. Of course, the bad side is that all those programmers and all that money doesn't really lead to greatness (look at Microsoft). It gets bureaucratic, stagnant, and everyone gets conservative because they have something to lose. When you're so small that the market doesn't see you anyways it frees you to innovate. So in that we should be thankful to be in that minority, we could be stuck with mass produced mediocrity.

[Magc8Ball]

I'm going to have to speak up in defense of the "dumb" demographic, just since I've worked in the industry before. Now, I'm not defending the dumb consumers (those that keep EA in business, for instance), just defending the need for occasional "dumbed down" games. I'm going to limit my points to baseball games, though...

Originally Posted by Zitofan75

... I think many people want their entertainment to be easy with a minimum of thinking and effort on their part.

Sometimes, you just want a game you can sit down with for half an hour, though. It's not all kids with short attention spans, it's sometimes adults with short periods of available time (or just not always wanting to sit down for the amount of time it takes to put in some serious "sim" time). I like to keep my "fun" and "serious" baseball time separate, for instance.

Let's face it: baseball, when you're *playing* a game (ie, commanding every pitch and/or swinging the bat) takes a long time. There's no simple way to abridge a baseball game when you're actively taking part. With football and basketball you can just set 5 minute quarter lengths, and you've got a nice, quick game. What can you do with baseball, though? One-pitch mode doesn't work well when you're actively controlling players. Shorter game lengths don't serve a purpose if you're wanting to have "accurate" stats. I'm sure there are innovations waiting to happen (just batting and simming the pitching side could be one), but in most cases baseball (that is played, not simmed or managed) does not carry over well at all to a "I have a half hour to play" time frame.

Now, it is possible to get baseball quick, but this inevitably involves dumbing it down. You have to take out the strategy and much of the long-term planning, because these are the things that slow the game down. This, I think, is where the discontent comes from, too: the current batch of console-based games (mainly 2k* and the EA series) at least try to pay lip-service to having a franchise mode. They include some long-term strategy, but because that's not their priority, they don't really get it tuned up. Which is, to my point of view, fine, because these games aren't meant to be sims!! They're very clearly marketed as something you play occasionally... but there's this hardcore subgroup of people that wants *every* baseball game to be totally realistic and provide completely accurate stats and let them fine tune every aspect of the game. Which is *great*... but that's what OOTP is for (and this has already been discussed to death in the thread, the concept of a niche market)

I think that there would be less friction towards these games if they actually made LESS attempt at being realistic looking. As it stands, the current generation of baseball on the high-end consoles is VERY pretty. I've yet to actually see any of it in motion, but the screenshots put out by marketing look quite nice. I think that some people look at it like "hey, it looks realistic, so it should be realistic in ALL aspects!" Unfortunately... this isn't, well, realistic.

Anyways, my original point is that these "dumb" games serve a purpose, and that's to get some quick baseball in the hands of people that either can't or won't sit down for hours at a stretch. I think that the Sega/EA games may suffer from some missed expectations because they don't obviously dumb things down enough... if they added some flaming baseballs and even more out-of-reality stuff to their games (if EA were allowed, I'd love to see "MLB Street"), it would probably help the discontent a little bit.

Now, I have OOTP when I want a hardcore sim extravaganza. Console sports games simply CAN'T produce the kind of detail that this game produces due to constraints in the hardware, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to PC gaming, and the hard-held belief that it will ALWAYS do more in-depth gaming than consoles, even ignoring the market constraints. Things like Civilization, RTS games, hardcore sports sims, and "slow" strategy titles (things like Silent Hunter III) will always just be better on a PC because the hardware is more tuned to things like that. So, I'm more than happy that OOTP is a niche title on the PC since, as stated above, it lets Marcus and crew be innovative and work on fun detail things, as well as providing excellent support and year-round updates (though going to an annual release cycle has me worried about this quite a bit).

When I want to play fun, quick, just whack-a-ball baseball?

That's what Super Mario Baseball is for.

[DrSatan]

I miss the days of High Heat Baseball. Good game play, tons of stats (nothing as good as ootp of course), and a good pc following. There was also a ton of mods out there, which we all love. It was a good game, because the sim quality was good, it was easy to navigate, and you could stop and play a week here or there, or sim the whole season and play the playoffs. The game went to hell when it tried to appeal to console gamers with it's final version (2003 I think). The loyal fans abandoned ship and turned to MVP and OOTP. The title was later bought by Microsoft and died. To me the perfect game would be all the detail of OOTP mixed with the gameplay of a console title like MVP. Just my random thoughts

[ctorg]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

Maybe the game should have different theme anthems according what era we're playing in. Now there's an idea for OOTP2010. What tunes were popular in 1901, anyway?

"Maple Leaf Rag" for Canadian teams, perhaps?

[No Pepper]

You are spot on Magc8ball, well spoken. Besides, baseball is a game without a clock and honors players who fail 7 times out of 10.