Left/Right Spits in fictional league

[Hardini007]

I just started a fictional league and after simming 10+ years I notice that my players have no left/right splits. Pitchers or hitters. The original players have splits, but by year 10 all lefty hitters and pitchers are the same against left-handers and vice-versa.

Is there a setting I am missing in the player creation modifiers?

Thanks for the time.

Go Cubs.

[1998 Yankees]

Your question is not clear to me. If you do not see splits being recorded, look for the "Keep career L/R splits" option in Player Options (see below). The manual explains it thusly:

This setting has no effect on game play, but gives you some control over the game’s usage of disk space and memory.
• Keep All—Saves the player’s career left/right splits (highest disk/memory usage).
• Major League Stats Only—Saves only the player’s major league left/right splits.
• Keep None—Does not save career splits (lowest disk/memory usage).

If you see splits, but the stats are exactly the same for lefty/righty, then sorry, I don't know the answer to that. BTW, I'll settle for Yankees-Cubs in the Series; that's as far as I will go.

[Hardini007]

Thanks for the reply. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

What I mean is that the players ratings are the same v.Left and v.Right.

For example-- Jo-Jo Jackson, a lefthanded 1st baseman, is a 65 contact against lefties and a 65 against righties. His power is also a 35 against both.

All of my players are like that so no lefty-lefty matchups or platoons are necessary.

I'll take a Yanks/Cubs series as well. REVENGE for 1932 & '38...

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by Hardini007

Thanks for the reply. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

What I mean is that the players ratings are the same v.Left and v.Right.

For example-- Jo-Jo Jackson, a lefthanded 1st baseman, is a 65 contact against lefties and a 65 against righties. His power is also a 35 against both.

All of my players are like that so no lefty-lefty matchups or platoons are necessary.

I'll take a Yanks/Cubs series as well. REVENGE for 1932 & '38...

Ok, ratings. I thought you were talking stats. I have not heard of this problem before; usually there is a differential. Could it be coincidence? Probably not. Let me bump this for you again, and I will look at my game tonight (also fictional) to see if I can spot anything; if so, I will post again. Meanwhile, maybe somebody else will have a comment or suggestion.

[cbbl]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

Ok, ratings. I thought you were talking stats. I have not heard of this problem before; usually there is a differential. Could it be coincidence? Probably not. Let me bump this for you again, and I will look at my game tonight (also fictional) to see if I can spot anything; if so, I will post again. Meanwhile, maybe somebody else will have a comment or suggestion.

I have no suggestion, but I think I've seen this mentioned from time-to-time on these boards -- it appears as though, over time, players improve their skills such that they are equal for both sides. For example:
Odd L/R Issue

Unrealistic, if true.

[Hardini007]

That is exactly what happens. It takes the fun out of the game not having to worry about platoons and match ups.

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by Hardini007

That is exactly what happens. It takes the fun out of the game not having to worry about platoons and match ups.

Well, I just got done looking at my game and it looks a lot like what you are describing. I guess I was like the poster on the other thread that cbbl quoted who looked more at stats than ratings for this purpose.

So, why have L vs. R rating splits if they are so consistently close together? Even looking at the actual ratings in editor mode, there is little difference for example between contact ratings for batters, L vs. R, for player after player. Same thing for pitching ratings, a few points difference out of 1-250 range.

This, along with the "I can't win in the playoffs" theme, is now another topic that I am hoping to see listed as tweaked in the last patch. I have to believe that it would have been picked up in beta testing and reported by somebody, no? Either that, or perhaps it can be explained in some satisfactory manner?

[Left-handed Badger]

Dont have 2007. But from all the past ones I've played it wouldnt necessarily matter. I have had plenty of guys who hit in stats better against one than the other. Despite, their ratings suggesting the exact opposite. I have seen many righties hit better against lefties despite being considered better talentwise against righties. And a few righties who hit righties better despite that the talents say otherwise. Even come across a few LH who hit righties better despite the talents surpisingly say that they should hit lefties better. Though I havent seen that opposite out of the lefty hitter. (i.e. hitting lefties better despite talent saying they should hit righty better).


I never noticed all this from the pitching side. So, it could be argued that the lefty hitter who did the wierd better against lefties than righties talentwise but was conventional in game, was just facing some tough lefty v. lefty pitchers.

[injury log]

Perhaps it's built into the game engine- L v R matchups are favorable to the hitter - if so, one will therefore see L/R splits in stats even if there are no L/R differences in ratings.

Of course, that won't quite do, because some players should have bigger splits than others, and this should probably be reflected in ratings- I doubt it's just random luck in real life. I've gone through players in the Editor, and most established Major Leaguers have virtually no L/R split in their ratings. Young players (in Rookie ball) do, however, seem to have some split; I imagine players are created with L/R differences, but since there is only one Potential number, the L and R ratings both move towards the same value, eventually becoming nearly equal for older players.

So I'll join the campaign to get this improved. Has anyone compared the variance in real-life L/R stats and in OOTP?

[cbbl]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

This, along with the "I can't win in the playoffs" theme, is now another topic that I am hoping to see listed as tweaked in the last patch.

< sarcasm > Last patch? There's another patch coming out? < / sarcasm >

[Hardini007]

I did a little more research and the fictional players that are created in the initial draft are not the problem. Those players maintain their splits. However, the players created for the draft each year are created without splits. Their left/rights are always within 4 points. Why?

[statfreak]

I believe it is because of the bias built into the game engine. All things (and ratings) being equal, a left handed batter will hit below league average batting versus left hand pitchers and slightly above league average versus right handers. A right handed batter will hit marginally above league average versus left handers and slightly below league average versus right handers.

So, let's say all ratings for all players are set at 60 (1 - 100 scale). When comparing batters and pitchers, we can assume the ratings are actually...

LH Batter vs LH Pitcher: 55

LH Batter vs RH Pitcher: 62

RH Batter vs LH Pitcher: 61

RH Batter vs RH Pitcher: 59


So even if a batter is rated equally vs LH and RH, there is still an inherent advantage/disadvantage built into the game engine that says the batter will perform better against the opposite handed pitcher and worse against the same handed pitcher... even with identical ratings.

Hope that helps.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by statfreak

I believe it is because of the bias built into the game engine. All things (and ratings) being equal, a left handed batter will hit below league average batting versus left hand pitchers and slightly above league average versus right handers. A right handed batter will hit marginally above league average versus left handers and slightly below league average versus right handers.

So, let's say all ratings for all players are set at 60 (1 - 100 scale). When comparing batters and pitchers, we can assume the ratings are actually...

LH Batter vs LH Pitcher: 55

LH Batter vs RH Pitcher: 62

RH Batter vs LH Pitcher: 61

RH Batter vs RH Pitcher: 59


So even if a batter is rated equally vs LH and RH, there is still an inherent advantage/disadvantage built into the game engine that says the batter will perform better against the opposite handed pitcher and worse against the same handed pitcher... even with identical ratings.

Hope that helps.

This is news to me but I've missed a few things before. Is there a thread (likely beta) where this was discussed?

Although this could account for some of the L/R split differential it doesn't allow for the very good player who is much worse than average against one side and would have to be platooned because of it.

[mrbill]

Whoa. That's not cool unless someone explains it better. I'm under the impression that you just look at the ratings based on the pitcher/hitter being faced. If I'm facing a righty pitcher with a 60 rating vs left and right, and a lefty hitter with a 60 vs R and a righty hitter with 60 vs R, it's a toss up, they're even. The ratings should tell you everything.

If there's a constant bias, I just assume it gets put into the ratings during creation or something. How does one determine the size of this invisible bias to make an informed decision about when to platoon? This is scary as I hate invisible ratings (unless chosen to be made invisible via a setting).

[RonCo]

I don't believe there is a single/baseline platoon advantage coded into the game.

[Eumel]

In any case, this should be logged as a bug, if it not already is. The discrepancy between the initially created players and those you end up with after a few years is certainly a problem. During the first few seasons it still does look right, and there are also players who stay platoon material as they develop.

This might well be the root of the problem:

Originally Posted by Hardini007

I did a little more research and the fictional players that are created in the initial draft are not the problem. Those players maintain their splits. However, the players created for the draft each year are created without splits. Their left/rights are always within 4 points. Why?

For the next version of the game, there should maybe be separate potential ratings vs. R and vs. L?

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by statfreak

So even if a batter is rated equally vs LH and RH, there is still an inherent advantage/disadvantage built into the game engine that says the batter will perform better against the opposite handed pitcher and worse against the same handed pitcher... even with identical ratings.

So, it's in there but the L/R ratings splits are apparently meaningless.

Originally Posted by RchW

This is news to me but I've missed a few things before. Is there a thread (likely beta) where this was discussed?

This is not intended as criticism, especially since I did not participate in the process, but I am speaking as a customer now and not to the beta testers themselves: Something as basic as this went unnoticed by over 100 beta testers? If so, how could that be possible?

Originally Posted by mrbill

Whoa. That's not cool unless someone explains it better. I'm under the impression that you just look at the ratings based on the pitcher/hitter being faced. If I'm facing a righty pitcher with a 60 rating vs left and right, and a lefty hitter with a 60 vs R and a righty hitter with 60 vs R, it's a toss up, they're even. The ratings should tell you everything.

If there's a constant bias, I just assume it gets put into the ratings during creation or something. How does one determine the size of this invisible bias to make an informed decision about when to platoon? This is scary as I hate invisible ratings (unless chosen to be made invisible via a setting).

I totally agree with everything in this quote. I could not even edit it down, accordingly.

Originally Posted by Eumel

In any case, this should be logged as a bug, if it not already is. The discrepancy between the initially created players and those you end up with after a few years is certainly a problem.

Agree, even if . . .

Originally Posted by cbbl

< sarcasm > Last patch? There's another patch coming out? < / sarcasm >

. . . it means waiting until November for the last patch. This, and the playoff anti-human bias / field-leveling issue must be fixed IMO.

[RonCo]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

This is not intended as criticism, especially since I did not participate in the process, but I am speaking as a customer now and not to the beta testers themselves: Something as basic as this went unnoticed by over 100 beta testers? If so, how could that be possible?

Speaking only for myself: I examined the player creation algorithm, tabulating the platoon advantage for each build. I wrote code that did this, and worked to ensure the split was (on average) in line with numbers that are used in the sabermetric world. I can validate that part. I did not go back and study the end state of players. OOTP has never had issues with platoon splits shifting much to my knowledge, so it never occurred to me to question this, and since most of my testing is with large populations I didn't set my eyeballs on enough individual player cards to notice the issue...assuming it's an issue here...at this point I'm guessing it is, but I haven't seen enough to say it always happens.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Hardini007

I just started a fictional league and after simming 10+ years I notice that my players have no left/right splits. Pitchers or hitters. The original players have splits, but by year 10 all lefty hitters and pitchers are the same against left-handers and vice-versa.

Is there a setting I am missing in the player creation modifiers?

Thanks for the time.

Go Cubs.

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

So, it's in there but the L/R ratings splits are apparently meaningless.

This is not intended as criticism, especially since I did not participate in the process, but I am speaking as a customer now and not to the beta testers themselves: Something as basic as this went unnoticed by over 100 beta testers? If so, how could that be possible?

It's quite possible that it wasn't there. We've had two patches and numerous intermediate builds since the game was released. Perhaps this is a new or variant bug. It would be interesting to look at some early build leagues to see if things were different. I'd also check OOTP 2006 leagues to see if this has been around a while.

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by RonCo

Speaking only for myself: I examined the player creation algorithm, tabulating the platoon advantage for each build. I wrote code that did this, and worked to ensure the split was (on average) in line with numbers that are used in the sabermetric world. I can validate that part. I did not go back and study the end state of players. OOTP has never had issues with platoon splits shifting much to my knowledge, so it never occurred to me to question this, and since most of my testing is with large populations I didn't set my eyeballs on enough individual player cards to notice the issue...assuming it's an issue here...at this point I'm guessing it is, but I haven't seen enough to say it always happens.

Thanks. Again, no personal criticism of beta testers was implied in my previous message.

Originally Posted by RchW

It's quite possible that it wasn't there. We've had two patches and numerous intermediate builds since the game was released. Perhaps this is a new or variant bug. It would be interesting to look at some early build leagues to see if things were different. I'd also check OOTP 2006 leagues to see if this has been around a while.

I was thinking that as well. I have the first patch; I may take a look at the game with just that installed. Nothing scientific, just some casual observation to see if things are substantially different from one build to the next.