Screenshots: 6.5 vs. 2007 and Explanations

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by ctorg

Enough time has passed that it's not just an issue of people needing to get used to the new version, I think.

I pulled out this one sentence and while not wanting to take things out of context and not being sure your total meaning I would like to comment, about this thread and the "simpler 6.5 is better" argument many make.

When I read these types of threads I really get the feeling that a good number of "6.5" players never really stayed the course long enough learn how powerful the "new" gui is. I read things like...

I didn't know about screen resolution. We learn here it can take scroll bars out of the game and let you view your whole roster.

I didn't know you could customize the stat columns (how many and what they are) in roster view. I would hope knowing this would let people understand why the lineup\pitching screens were done top\bottom and not left right. It wasn't bad design there was a purpose.


From the roster screen in 6.5 all minors are available with one click and you get the same view for each affiliate. You can do the same with v2k7. Bottom right corner is the affiliate button. Two clicks you say (two clicks never bother me but they seem to be a gamebreaker for some)? No, you can set a preference to auto open any menu you scroll over so scroll over the affiliate button and the menu opens. All ML levels appear, one click and you are on the same screen you were in the MLB view. Scroll over the affiliate button again and all levels of you organization appear again one click and you are there.

Not trying to be critical of anyone person but many of the complaints I read can be fixed or simply don't exist when one has spent minimal time with the GUI . Some obviously are not ie do we want left\right\compact and lose space to view stats or top and bottom and keep them? I think you know where I stand on this And we haven't even touched on the hot keys, bookmarks, and icon buttons that are available to help us get around quickly.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Neags23

Even after seeing these screenshots, I just don't see any advantages of 6.5 over 8 other than the standings screen.

Everything 6.5 can do (other than the standings screen) 8 can do better. And it's much easier to read, and just looks better/cleaner.

Well said and just how I feel. I agree with the bolded part too but, since looks can be such a personal preference, I can understand those that don't like it as much as you and I.

[kingcharlesxii]

Originally Posted by Sweed

I pulled out this one sentence and while not wanting to take things out of context and not being sure your total meaning I would like to comment, about this thread and the "simpler 6.5 is better" argument many make.

When I read these types of threads I really get the feeling that a good number of "6.5" players never really stayed the course long enough learn how powerful the "new" gui is. I read things like...

I didn't know about screen resolution. We learn here it can take scroll bars out of the game and let you view your whole roster.

I didn't know you could customize the stat columns (how many and what they are) in roster view. I would hope knowing this would let people understand why the lineup\pitching screens were done top\bottom and not left right. It wasn't bad design there was a purpose.


From the roster screen in 6.5 all minors are available with one click and you get the same view for each affiliate. You can do the same with v2k7. Bottom right corner is the affiliate button. Two clicks you say (two clicks never bother me but they seem to be a gamebreaker for some)? No, you can set a preference to auto open any menu you scroll over so scroll over the affiliate button and the menu opens. All ML levels appear, one click and you are on the same screen you were in the MLB view. Scroll over the affiliate button again and all levels of you organization appear again one click and you are there.

Not trying to be critical of anyone person but many of the complaints I read can be fixed or simply don't exist when one has spent minimal time with the GUI . Some obviously are not ie do we want left\right\compact and lose space to view stats or top and bottom and keep them? I think you know where I stand on this And we haven't even touched on the hot keys, bookmarks, and icon buttons that are available to help us get around quickly.

Yeah, I agree with this. Perhaps the failing is on education if people didn't know this though? The fact that OOTP has a built-in help system is a big plus but it could still be better I'm sure.

FWIW, those screen shots also reminded me how I couldn't ever go back to 6.5 since it is so much harder to read and has a limited res.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by Sweed

When I read these types of threads I really get the feeling that a good number of "6.5" players never really stayed the course long enough learn how powerful the "new" gui is.

Nice post Sweed, and the quote I highlighted is how I feel exactly. While this thread is great, I, too got the feeling that some of the 6.5 loyalists just haven't poked around the new GUI enough or just were so thrown off by the first reaction, haven't bothered to go back.


Again, not pointing anyone out here in particular and I also know that some of you here have given the new version a realistic shot

[Nukester]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

All these images have me wanting to fire v6 up when I get home!

You better fire up BB first !!

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by Nukester

You better fire up BB first !!

Gridiron Glory rears its ugly head, even in this thread?

You know it! I've got some Bulldog a$$ to beat tonight!

[Anisoptera]

It bothers me that some seem to largely be blowing off this thread because Jestor missed a couple things. There are so many more suggestions in this that should be looked at that I'm sure would please not just 6.5 "loyalists", but 2k7 loyalists as well in the end. I was on the 2k7 side, but the more "don't bother improving things" I hear, the more I have to side with the old-timers. Sorry for my tone, but I'm just getting sick of the tone, not just in this thread, that I'm hearing. I'm glad Jestor has taken it so well.

[Neags23]

Originally Posted by Anisoptera

It bothers me that some seem to largely be blowing off this thread because Jestor missed a couple things. There are so many more suggestions in this that should be looked at that I'm sure would please not just 6.5 "loyalists", but 2k7 loyalists as well in the end. I was on the 2k7 side, but the more "don't bother improving things" I hear, the more I have to side with the old-timers. Sorry for my tone, but I'm just getting sick of the tone, not just in this thread, that I'm hearing. I'm glad Jestor has taken it so well.

Improvement is always welcome.

I, personally, simply don't see these 6.5 screenshots as improvements over 2007. Obviously that's a subjective opinion.

If there are ways to improve 2007, I'm sure everyone will be in favor of them.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by silvam14

Nice post Sweed, and the quote I highlighted is how I feel exactly. While this thread is great, I, too got the feeling that some of the 6.5 loyalists just haven't poked around the new GUI enough or just were so thrown off by the first reaction, haven't bothered to go back.


Again, not pointing anyone out here in particular and I also know that some of you here have given the new version a realistic shot

Yeah, I'm not calling out anybody either. I realize some of this could be because they only tried v2006 and being, somewhat justifiably, unimpressed didn't bother with v2007. After some of the frustrations with 2006 they certainly can't be blamed for staying away from 2007. Of if they did try 2007 when first opening the game could have thought looks like more of the same (2006), why bother?

Hey it's a larger gui and does take some time to figure out where you want to go. I've played both 2006 and 2007 and am still finding things I didn't even know existed in the history section

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Anisoptera

It bothers me that some seem to largely be blowing off this thread because Jestor missed a couple things. There are so many more suggestions in this that should be looked at that I'm sure would please not just 6.5 "loyalists", but 2k7 loyalists as well in the end. I was on the 2k7 side, but the more "don't bother improving things" I hear, the more I have to side with the old-timers. Sorry for my tone, but I'm just getting sick of the tone, not just in this thread, that I'm hearing. I'm glad Jestor has taken it so well.

I think it's been a very civil thread with good discussion. I haven't seen anything that Jestor would "have to take well". No personal insults just discussion about the issues and opinions on why we like the things we do.

[Tony M]

Originally Posted by rdomico

A big difference between 6.5 and 8 is the number of minor league levels you can have. Since 6.5 had a set number of levels, it is easier to design a nice screen.

I am not sure how you could make 8 as nice as 6.5 because of that, but I am sure someone will come up with some good ideas.

Ah, somebody has made the point I was going to make. I couldn't see Short Season A or Rookie on the 6.5 transaction screen.

Where's the comparison between setting up a 6.5 custom league and a 2007 custom league?

[jbergey22]

Everyone keeps talking about the standings screen being so much better in 6.5 but from the OOTP8 game I play there is a standings page displayed just like the one your are reqesting to have back except the new version gives new stories of trades, no hitters, cycles, etc...AND league leaders plus standings.

[Ktulu]

Originally Posted by Anisoptera

It bothers me that some seem to largely be blowing off this thread because Jestor missed a couple things. There are so many more suggestions in this that should be looked at that I'm sure would please not just 6.5 "loyalists", but 2k7 loyalists as well in the end. I was on the 2k7 side, but the more "don't bother improving things" I hear, the more I have to side with the old-timers. Sorry for my tone, but I'm just getting sick of the tone, not just in this thread, that I'm hearing. I'm glad Jestor has taken it so well.

I haven't seen anyone say "don't bother improving things". Nobody is blowing this thread off either. It has however been pointed out that for the most part 2k7 is a better interface if you take the time to learn it. I remember when I first started playing ootp 5, it took me quite a while to become familiar with the in's and out's of the interface. The same was true for 2k7. People seem to forget that there was always plenty of criticism directed at the old V6 interface. The way some people go on about it (not in this thread) you would think it was the holy grail of sports sim interfaces.

There are a lot of ways the new interface can be improved (and many of them are being discussed) but improvement isn't going to be achieved by going backwards. As demonstrated in this thread there are things that can be learned from the v6 interface, but for the most part it needs to be left behind.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by Ktulu

I haven't seen anyone say "don't bother improving things". Nobody is blowing this thread off either. It has however been pointed out that for the most part 2k7 is a better interface if you take the time to learn it. I remember when I first started playing ootp 5, it took me quite a while to become familiar with the in's and out's of the interface. The same was true for 2k7. People seem to forget that there was always plenty of criticism directed at the old V6 interface. The way some people go on about it (not in this thread) you would think it was the holy grail of sports sim interfaces.

There are a lot of ways the new interface can be improved (and many of them are being discussed) but improvement isn't going to be achieved by going backwards. As demonstrated in this thread there are things that can be learned from the v6 interface, but for the most part it needs to be left behind.

Amen!

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Charley575

STOP MAKING THE LISTS RESET! Do you hear me Markus? If I'm in the draft screen and I want to sort by fielding ratings to find say, the best fielding shortstops, when I switch back to batting ratings to see if any of them can hit, the list resets. What a bunch of bull.

Hell yeah!

[The Wolf]

I play on a laptop, so all of the benefits of having OOTP 8 on a big monitor with huge resolution are wasted on me, and so I still prefer the 6.5 interface. But that being said, I have really been enjoying this discussion and I'm very glad that Jestor started it. Hopefully we are all learning something about this issue from each other. I know I am.

[Jestor]

Note #1. Playoff Simming
Rather than a true exhibit, this is a commentary on the playoffs when simming.

6.5


2K7


Notes

While these are taken after the playoffs have concluded, 6.5, when simming the playoffs, shows the bracket and has the results appear real-time in the right-hand corner.

2K7, on the other hand, does not show the playoff bracket when simming the playoffs, nor does it show the real-time results like 6.5 does, unless it does it in the top bar, which isn't very easy to spot. It instead shows the default standings screen. Not a good way to see who advances, in any case.

Suggestion for Improvement

Take this screen:



Make it the default screen when simming playoffs in 2K7 and provide the scores as they're simmed. Ideally it'd be arranged so that you could see the scores flash up clearly similiar 6.5. I think there's enough open space to permit that to happen, even in larger leagues and larger playoff brackets.

[Jestor]

Originally Posted by Anisoptera

Default Screen

-While you compare the default screen in 6.5 to 2k7's standings screen, I think enough people have asked long and hard enough now for the screen that pops up while you are simming to be the default screen in 2k7. It's also the closest to 6.5's default/sim screen and superior with its news updates.

So I see. I can see where this is a necessity for larger leagues as well, but at the same time, I'd like to be able to arrange the columns somewhat. Like, say I prefer to have the league standings on the default 2K7 screen in the middle and the league leaders on either side like in 6.5... it'd be really nice to have that option.

Standings Screen

-I wouldn't be in favour of adding stuff to 2k7's standings screen as I think it should be a separate screen you go to just for that standings info and I imagine there might be space issues with large leagues. If anything, make it where you can add/edit the columns to change the listed stats.

Given that I see the default simming screen I didn't see before, maybe it would be possible to include more standings on the actual standings page, such as the minors standings? Obviously that'd probably only work for smaller leagues, but it's something that could be customized?

Just food for thought.

Roster Screen

-While 6.5's does look better (I'm comparing it to 2k7's actual roster screen not the website like homepage), I really never spent that much time on the roster screen then or now. I do miss the hot and cold streak columns as well as the team leader rankings a bit, but if you're going to add those back somehow I'd prefer they be customizeable. While some may care about BA,RS,RBI,Wins,Saves, etc, I much more care about other stats. Like the pitching and batting screens you could devote the bottom half of the roster screen to small sections with customizeable leaderboards, hot/cold streaks, team rankings, and other important info that you should always check for after a sim like: newly injured/day-to-day players, players recovered from injuries, players who need to come off the DFA, etc.

Many, however, probably prefer how 2k7's roster screen fits many more players and more stats. What would probably be better is have a subscreen (like you know how the transactions screen has the disabled list subscreen), but with these subscreens you'd have screens that list what you had with the 6.5 roster screen (and the others I said above like the injured and DFAs), but with the added bonus of more room to show more and customizeable columns! Yeah, you could probably do some of that with views, but you have space there for subscreens, you might as well make the info one click away and already set up for the convenience of the user.

I would very much like to see Hot and Cold streaks back, not so much for myself, but for others. Sure, 2K7 has the hot/cold icons, but they don't give you an idea of the degree of hotness or coldness like 6.5 does with the statistics.

Your suggestion about customizing the team leaders is a good one as well. I confess I don't entirely grasp your remark about the subscreens. I'd need to see an illustration of that.

Font

-You bring up that the numbers are easier to read in 6.5. I wholeheartedly agree, but I think it's an issue with the font, not really the size. The size looks about the same, but in 2k7 it's either a different wider font or the old one but bolded. It would probably be wise to go back to a skinnier font or at least make the font customizeable by the user (font itself, size, bold or regular). RchW mentioned 2k7's is easier on his bifocal eyes so customizeable is probably the way to go as its definitely not easier on mine.

Customizable numbers would be good, I agree, as the thinner ones in 6.5 are much easier for me to read.

Pitching and Batting Screens

-I agree with you that the left-right nature of 6.5 is much easier on the headaches, but if going back to that way means not being able to have as many data columns visible at once I think I'd much rather have 2k7's up-down. That said, I think it would be awesome if, at least here, you had the option of going to classic left-right screens.

-I have to say I do miss the bigger font sizes of the rotations and lineups from 6.5. It is a matter of better readability (6.5) vs more info (2k7), though, and it's always difficult to side with less info.

-I do see a way of increasing the screen area by a bit, however. You see how the top pull-downs are taking less than half the width of the screen as are the bottom push-ups? Why not put them on the same line thereby allowing that much more screen space? Perhaps there is then a problem with narrow resolutions, but I'm not convinced those menus couldn't be re-organized and/or some moved elsewhere. There's a fair amount of wasted screen space in OOTP, working on that would help getting the number of mouse-clicks down.

I see your point about the top-bottom split and more information. In fact, others have illustrated it very nicely as well, but all the same, I'd like to be able to have that left/right split as an option as you suggest.

Transactions Screens

-9 sections destroys 4 sections. It's more than 4 apparently if you go to some resolution that my wide screen laptop doesn't support as it only goes up to 1280x800, but really, do most OOTPers have a larger resolution? And what about the rest of us? Are we just supposed to suffer with a worse transactions screen, perhaps the screen that we use the most, or at least used the most in 6.5? Please don't suggest that I lug around a 17" screen laptop.

-Heck, 2k7's doesn't even really show more columns than 6.5's did even though it takes up way more space. So where is the benefit in 2k7's? You can't even customize the columns shown, which you should be able to. I'd much, much, rather have the more squeezed look of 6.5's. Even if you could only give us 6 sections instead of the 4 at regular resolutions, it would be an improvement.

-Another way to improve 2k7's transactions screen (perhaps simpler than the last) would be to add more subscreens (e.g. the disabled list). I understand you can get to some of these by the pull-down menus, but one click buttons are so much faster (that's a big difference between the two throughout: menus are good for lots of selections and little room, but if you've few selections and/or enough room then one-click buttons are so much better). You've got disabled and trade subscreens, add waiver, DFA, minor league subscreens, maybe even more.

Agreed with pretty much everything here, though I still haven't tested it in the larger resolutions.

Player Screens

-I also miss the coloured bars and feel that they did a much better judge of quickly allowing you to assess a player, but I'm not sure you can really help that while keeping all the info I'd like to keep on that screen. However, they could make space for bars by abbreviating words like use 1B instead of firstbase, IF instead of infield, make subheadings for current ability and potential talent instead of adding potential to the end of every rating label, etc. Again, there's a lot of wasted space in 2k7 whereas 6.5 really did do a pretty good job of optimizing it. Work on that enough and I think you just might be able to bring bars in at least some places.

-For pitchers, showing how many pitches over the last 5 days they've thrown really should be horizontal like in 6.5 as otherwise you need to scroll.

Agreed on all points here as well.

[Jestor]

Originally Posted by DODO

Just to add, not ony visually speaking, but load times is what makes me love 6.5 compard to later verions.

I play a lot of times on my laptop rather than my desktop, since I can play is essentially anywhere on my laptop. 2007 takes considerably longer to sim, load screens, ect. Trying the demo for both before deciding which one to buy...I had tried 6 first, and then changing to 2007 was killer on my patience, I just couldn't take how long things took.

I'm sure for most people it's not a problem, since I'm sure most people playing on a desktop. Still saying it anyway

I play on a laptop myself and while the load times are faster in 6.5, the sim times are faster in 2K7.

[Jestor]

Originally Posted by English_Ray

Also to answer a couple of Jestor's points on this, while there isn't a hot/cold streak table as such, you can see who's hot and who's not from the icons down the left on the roster view. I know its not quite the same, and is probably one of those things that went missing in the new versions that was nice to have about. The other point is on viewing minor affiliates. If you are on the roster view, and then choose your affiliate from the tab in the bottom right, then it will take you to that teams roster, filtered in the same way as you were looking at your team (at least I think it does, someone check, quick!). Plus you can still include all players, or 40-man roster players on the view from the drop down.

True, on the hot/cold thing, but like I said, you don't have the precise detail that 6.5 gives you. And I see your point about the minor-league affiliates, but it's an extra click. (I know, I know, tiny nitpick ).

Pitching/Lineups

The pitching and lineup screens are probably the ones where in my view v8 has the biggest advantages. Having the width is such a big advantage, it, along with the customizeable views, means that I can have every single bit of info, rating or stat on screen at once. This is massive when I'm setting my pitching staff or lineup. I also disagree about it being easier to have the staff down the right as opposed to across the bottom. I find it pretty much exactly the same wherever it is. There is one thing that annoys me on the pitching view though. Why, oh why does it go spot starter-middle reliever-mop up? Thats not the right order!!! Drives me mad...

Its the same deal on the hitting screens, having the depth chart along with the order is so much better. Especially for stupid people like me that put someone into the starting SS spot, and then immediately forget his name when deciding on the batting order... Two points I do agree on - yes, while its not a particular problem for me, I can see that the red numbers on v8 aren't that easy to read. I also see the point with the lack of contrast between LHP/RHP/DH/non-DH tabs. Making them stand out more certainly couldn't hurt.

Yeah, I'm seeing that most people prefer the top/bottom split for the more information, so I'll probably lose the left/right split debate. I do like the depth chart being on the same page as the lineup, though, so that's a bonus for the hitting page.

Transactions

Then there's the transactions screen. Ok, it is definitely great to have all the boxes on screen at once. No question. But, I like that I can choose what info is displayed in the boxes in v8. I think having different colours for the different boxes definitely should come back, its only a little thing, but it does make it easier, and quicker to move players around. What I would say is that if you can fit more boxes on the screen, then great. But please please please don't do it at the cost of making the font smaller/columns more compact. I am pretty young, with excellent eyesight, but the last thing I want to do after working on a computer all day is to have to squint at the screen trying to figure out whether my AAA third baseman is hitting .261 or .281.

Anyway, thats all pretty much a long way of saying that I prefer the new interface to the old. Sure, there are elements that used to be done better, but in my eyes the changes from v6.5 to v8 are for the most part good ones.

Anyhow...back to work(!)

I'll have to test it at the higher resolution to see how many boxes I can come up with on this laptop, which isn't top of the line, but isn't ancient either.