Disappointed

[Who Killed Kenny?]

I'd like to throw my graduate degree into the ring as well... I agree with both parties.... Thank you.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Who Killed Kenny?

I'd like to throw my graduate degree into the ring as well... I agree with both parties.... Thank you.

It's always nice to see people come down firmly on both sides of the fence.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

It's always nice to see people come down firmly on both sides of the fence.

This, however, tends to be painful if it's a picket fence.

[The Wolf]

Or barbed wire, for that matter. (Ouch!)

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

Fixed that for you. Sort of like a steady buzzing or humming noise.

Originally Posted by SittingDuck

Really? I always thought it was a short, abrupt tooting sound.

It's all in the ear of the behearer, I guess.

[Neags23]

Pretty off-topic for the thread, but it is a generally accepted software engineering principle that all software has bugs.

Just because a bug isn't apparent or hasn't been seen doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Most complex software has bug catching routines/methods/functions, if you will, that mitigate the typical outcome of a bug. Just because a program has never crashed, never worked improperly or has shown no sign of bugs doesn't mean it doesn't have any. Just means the developers did an exceptional job of mitigating them. In such a case, the unintended effect happens, it triggers an exception and the program catches it and points itself in the right direction. The end user knows nothing about this.

One might say that this isn't really a bug. But it is, because it is still an error/flaw/mistake in the program. Just because you fix your mistake before anyone sees it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

And then one might say "what about a program that has the sole job of writing one line of text to a screen?" Well, even that is prone to compiler bugs or bugs in the text editor the code was written in, the OS the program runs on, etc.

Basically, just because you haven't seen the bug doesn't mean it's not there.

[Who Killed Kenny?]

Originally Posted by Neags23

Pretty off-topic for the thread, but it is a generally accepted software engineering principle that all software has bugs.

Just because a bug isn't apparent or hasn't been seen doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Most complex software has bug catching routines/methods/functions, if you will, that mitigate the typical outcome of a bug. Just because a program has never crashed, never worked improperly or has shown no sign of bugs doesn't mean it doesn't have any. Just means the developers did an exceptional job of mitigating them. In such a case, the unintended effect happens, it triggers an exception and the program catches it and points itself in the right direction. The end user knows nothing about this.

One might say that this isn't really a bug. But it is, because it is still an error/flaw/mistake in the program. Just because you fix your mistake before anyone sees it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

And then one might say "what about a program that has the sole job of writing one line of text to a screen?" Well, even that is prone to compiler bugs or bugs in the text editor the code was written in, the OS the program runs on, etc.

Basically, just because you haven't seen the bug doesn't mean it's not there.

Good point. Very Zen. If a bug breaks the software and no one is around, does it make a sound?

[zekester91]

Originally Posted by SittingDuck

Well, I am not sure I want to look at it that way. I wouldn't buy a car that purports to steer in both directions and stop effeciently and get acceptable gas mileage, and then find out the car did things at about 50-75% of what was marketed.

Umm, most cars purport that the get acceptable gas mileage and then most people get a lot less that that purportment. The whole YMMV thing. Most marketing is 25-50% exageration, to make the product look good under perfect conditions, which you will never see out in the wild. Everything in the game works perfectly on Markus' machine

[jm47048]

Originally Posted by Neags23

Pretty off-topic for the thread, but it is a generally accepted software engineering principle that all software has bugs.

Just because a bug isn't apparent or hasn't been seen doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Most complex software has bug catching routines/methods/functions, if you will, that mitigate the typical outcome of a bug. Just because a program has never crashed, never worked improperly or has shown no sign of bugs doesn't mean it doesn't have any. Just means the developers did an exceptional job of mitigating them. In such a case, the unintended effect happens, it triggers an exception and the program catches it and points itself in the right direction. The end user knows nothing about this.

One might say that this isn't really a bug. But it is, because it is still an error/flaw/mistake in the program. Just because you fix your mistake before anyone sees it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

And then one might say "what about a program that has the sole job of writing one line of text to a screen?" Well, even that is prone to compiler bugs or bugs in the text editor the code was written in, the OS the program runs on, etc.

Basically, just because you haven't seen the bug doesn't mean it's not there.

Thank you. Finally someone with a brain in their head. This is the point I have been trying to get across for half this thread already, but some people still don't get it, despite "corporate experience." I too have "corporate experience" in gaming, and other industries and the fact remains that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BUG-FREE SOFTWARE. Does not exist. Cannot exist. Will not exist. I grow tired of this though anyway. I have been called an egghead for stating a fact. With that said, anything past this remark from me only furthers to foster a case in front of virtual people that we have never met in real life, only to look good to people that they will never see in person. It does no good. But... if people continue to go on about the point, please read the works by McCabe, Munson, and the "Mythical Man Month" article in (I believe) the IEEE library. A good point was made here about exception handling. That defines correction of a problem before the problem brings things down. So yes, an exception, in general terms, is bad news and the fact that handling needs to be done illustrates my point.

In any rate, like I said... I have been called an egghead and I have been told I sit around all day theorizing things, when in reality, I work a full time job as a senior software engineer for a major organization. So not only have I see this first hand, but I have had to maintain a code base that was written by other (poor) developers.

Thank you for the fun times. Life is grand.

[jm47048]

Originally Posted by Who Killed Kenny?

I'd like to throw my graduate degree into the ring as well... I agree with both parties.... Thank you.

Off topic, but what did you study?

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Neags23

Pretty off-topic for the thread, but it is a generally accepted software engineering principle that all software has bugs.

And a lot of programmers will tell you that's all so much nonsense.

Originally Posted by Neags23

Most complex software

And there's the end of it right there. I allow that it is unlikely to have complex bug-free software. The problem is that the Fundamentalists refuse to acknowledge that bug-free non-complex software can and does exist. Hell, I can write some myself.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by jm47048

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BUG-FREE SOFTWARE

Utter nonsense. Total foolishness. It can exist and it DOES exist.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Neags23

And then one might say "what about a program that has the sole job of writing one line of text to a screen?" Well, even that is prone to compiler bugs or bugs in the text editor the code was written in, the OS the program runs on, etc.

I'm sorry, we're talking about just application code here. Stop trying to bring the whole world in on this to fake a case. ("Oh, Windows has bugs, therefore that perfect code you write that we're running under Windows must have bugs too because Windows does! Or maybe the video driver has a bug! Eek!")

Nice try. Won't fly.

You guys do understand that code can be mathematically proved to be bug-free, right? And that a bunch of it has been? Especially software apps that deal with human lives?

Go back to your ivory towers and let the rest of us go on with real life.

[Who Killed Kenny?]

Originally Posted by jm47048

Off topic, but what did you study?

Computer Science and Mathematics, my Master's thesis was on email spam.

[SittingDuck]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

It's all in the ear of the behearer, I guess.

Nose as well!

[jm47048]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I'm sorry, we're talking about just application code here. Stop trying to bring the whole world in on this to fake a case. ("Oh, Windows has bugs, therefore that perfect code you write that we're running under Windows must have bugs too because Windows does! Or maybe the video driver has a bug! Eek!")

Nice try. Won't fly.

You guys do understand that code can be mathematically proved to be bug-free, right? And that a bunch of it has been? Especially software apps that deal with human lives?

Go back to your ivory towers and let the rest of us go on with real life.

We weren't talking about application code. We were talking about bug free software. It was a good point about the "simple writing text to a screen" program. Seems I have people in my camp, and in your case, the cheese stands alone.

Yes, this is "bug free" code:

#include <iostream>

using namespace std;

int main (void)
{
cout << "Hello world!" << endl;

return 0;
}

But does not illustrate the point of bug free software. Just because the code is right, doesn't mean there aren't bugs. And THAT is the point I have been trying to make for the past 7 posts.

EDIT: For some reason iostream is not showing up after the #include, but you get the idea. I think it has to do with the brackets that would normally surround it. I guess it thinks its an HTML tag. In any rate, you get all see what I am saying. Funny how this sorta furthers my point

[jm47048]

Originally Posted by Who Killed Kenny?

Computer Science and Mathematics, my Master's thesis was on email spam.

If there is some place online that I might be able to read your thesis, I would like to if you would be willing to share.

Thanks!

[kckid4u]

Originally Posted by jm47048

Whatever. You win. I guess my graduate level education and industry experience in computer science and software engineering doesn't amount to anything..

Apparently not.

[kckid4u]

Damn, when I was young kid, I used to play "Pong" for hours on end, and I never ran across a bug. So.......dare I say it? Yes I will! "Pong" was a bug free program! You might want to throw in "Ms Pacman" too.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by jm47048

We weren't talking about application code.

Oh, bull. Stop reaching. You've tried to drag in operating systems to justify your nonsense. What's next? Middleware? Hardware?

Bug free software is used every day in the real world.