A problem I see with your "pre-ordering" ....

Sirhawk · 04-25-2008, 11:43 AM

I have bought this game since OOTP 3 every year. And over the years, the game has gotten better and better. However, when OOTP 2006 came out, I felt ripped off....but I gave it a mulligan and purchased 2007. I was still not happy with the product. Mainly, once you merged, the product was too "sterile" for me. There seemed to be a lot of personality missing and I felt again, ripped off and just didn't have fun with the game.

So, why do I bring this up??? Well, if I "pre-order" a game that has been a disappointment in my eyes (still haven't found a more "personal" version since 6.5) the previous two iterations, then why should I give you my trust that you finally got back to what made the game fun? ie. fun play by play, the sweet standings/stat page, the manager dating/relationships, easier navigation through the menus etc.....

I propose that the pre-order discount should stick around for a week after the demo. It isn't about the money more than about the principal....why should I be charged more for a product when the last two versions weren't up to snuff?

Now I know I am gonna get flamed for saying all this, but when you change the recipe for a "fun" game too much, it loses what it once stood as....and that I do think is what has happened. I hope I am wrong this year, just don't think I should be "dinged" extra for paying after I see the demo.

Sirhawk

Ryan W. · 04-25-2008, 12:01 PM

I guess everyone has their own preferences. Personally, I think OOTP 2007/OOTP9 was his best one, followed by 6.5. The additions that have happened to the game engine, the AI is much better and scouting around the world can find you that "diamond in the rough". Now, Markus is trying to reward his loyal customers who purchase his game every year by giving them a $15 break. Times are tough now. The dollar is weak around the world, therefore Markus is making a lot LESS on this version then previous versions (even with the rate hike). He's not doing it to be greedy, he's doing it to survive. He is an independent game developer who is trying to make a living. If you want to continue supporting him and the OOTP series, pay the $24.95. If you want to wait for the demo, play that and, if you like it, pay the $39.95. Your choice.

If you are perfectly content with OOTP 6.5, stick with it. It's still a great game.

Just my $0.02...

Neags23 · 04-25-2008, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirhawk

I have bought this game since OOTP 3 every year. And over the years, the game has gotten better and better. However, when OOTP 2006 came out, I felt ripped off....but I gave it a mulligan and purchased 2007. I was still not happy with the product. Mainly, once you merged, the product was too "sterile" for me. There seemed to be a lot of personality missing and I felt again, ripped off and just didn't have fun with the game.

So, why do I bring this up??? Well, if I "pre-order" a game that has been a disappointment in my eyes (still haven't found a more "personal" version since 6.5) the previous two iterations, then why should I give you my trust that you finally got back to what made the game fun? ie. fun play by play, the sweet standings/stat page, the manager dating/relationships, easier navigation through the menus etc.....

I propose that the pre-order discount should stick around for a week after the demo. It isn't about the money more than about the principal....why should I be charged more for a product when the last two versions weren't up to snuff?

Now I know I am gonna get flamed for saying all this, but when you change the recipe for a "fun" game too much, it loses what it once stood as....and that I do think is what has happened. I hope I am wrong this year, just don't think I should be "dinged" extra for paying after I see the demo.

Sirhawk

I think you're probably in a very very small minority in saying that the most recent version wasn't "up to snuff."

By waiting until after demo, you're not getting "dinged extra." You're just not getting the pre-order discount. That's why it's called a discount. It's cheaper because you're putting extra faith in the program that you'll be satisfied before seeing a demo or reviews. If that leap of faith isn't worth saving $15 to you, you'll just have to pay for the privilege of waiting for the demo.

silvam14 · 04-25-2008, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neags23

I think you're probably in a very very small minority in saying that the most recent version wasn't "up to snuff."

By waiting until after demo, you're not getting "dinged extra." You're just not getting the pre-order discount. That's why it's called a discount. It's cheaper because you're putting extra faith in the program that you'll be satisfied before seeing a demo or reviews. If that leap of faith isn't worth saving $15 to you, you'll just have to pay for the privilege of waiting for the demo.

Well said

Sirhawk · 04-25-2008, 12:26 PM

I guess I have lost my faith....when you take too much stuff out of a game and then repackage it with other features, it sometimes loses its luster...that is my take on it.

falkonisback · 04-25-2008, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirhawk

I have bought this game since OOTP 3 every year. And over the years, the game has gotten better and better. However, when OOTP 2006 came out, I felt ripped off....but I gave it a mulligan and purchased 2007. I was still not happy with the product. Mainly, once you merged, the product was too "sterile" for me. There seemed to be a lot of personality missing and I felt again, ripped off and just didn't have fun with the game.

So, why do I bring this up??? Well, if I "pre-order" a game that has been a disappointment in my eyes (still haven't found a more "personal" version since 6.5) the previous two iterations, then why should I give you my trust that you finally got back to what made the game fun? ie. fun play by play, the sweet standings/stat page, the manager dating/relationships, easier navigation through the menus etc.....

I propose that the pre-order discount should stick around for a week after the demo. It isn't about the money more than about the principal....why should I be charged more for a product when the last two versions weren't up to snuff?

Now I know I am gonna get flamed for saying all this, but when you change the recipe for a "fun" game too much, it loses what it once stood as....and that I do think is what has happened. I hope I am wrong this year, just don't think I should be "dinged" extra for paying after I see the demo.

Sirhawk

WOW! I personally thought that OOTP 2007/8 was just a little better than a rip off

Sirhawk · 04-25-2008, 12:34 PM

I didn't say 07 was a ripoff...I said 06 was...I just was still not having fun with 07..too many missing pieces that were in 6.5...those pieces just added up to a game missing a personality and genuine fun for me.

Sirhawk · 04-25-2008, 12:36 PM

Oops...I guess I did say that...

Well, maybe ripped off is a bit strong for 07....more like, still disappointed.

cbbl · 04-25-2008, 12:36 PM

The pre-order discount is a risk and reward proposition, isn't it? The base price is $40. If you order now, sight unseen, you save $15. The risk is you won't like the product when it is released. For taking that risk, OOTP will give you $15.

In reality, the pre-order discount is an tactic to intice buyers to purchase the game now and infuse the developer with cash up front. The risk/reward scenario plays out on OOTP's side as well -- they sacrifice $15 to get cash now rather than later and to get committed sales.

So, there are the rules. Save $15, but take the chance.

We ALL agree (with few dissenters) that OOTP 2006 was this series' nadir, but I think most feel that OOTP 2007/8 restored our faith -- and that to save $15, taking the next leap of faith is a risk well worth its potential reward.

I hope you agree.

BusterKing · 04-25-2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirhawk

I guess I have lost my faith....when you take too much stuff out of a game and then repackage it with other features, it sometimes loses its luster...that is my take on it.

Then the answer for you is simple, stick to the version you liked.

Changes are being made to bring progress to the game. Not everyone likes to see this.

And the word "fun" that you have been using in your original post is a very personal word. What's fun for you may not be fun to others. It's all about taste.

I have the feeling that you are just making this thread in an attempt to undermine Markus and the game that most posters in this forum love. It's not going to work.

Erik W. · 04-25-2008, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Then the answer for you is simple, stick to the version you licked.

Yeah, because now it has your saliva on it. No one else wants it.

falkonisback · 04-25-2008, 12:39 PM

Yeah, I wish there was a forum where we could complain about the price of gasoline instead of the price of OOTP!!! LOL

BusterKing · 04-25-2008, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by falkonisback

Yeah, because now it has your saliva on it. No one else wants it.

LOL... fixed!

Sirhawk · 04-25-2008, 12:43 PM

No, I am not here to "undermine" anyone. I rarely post on here and I just wished there was a better way to feel assured I am not going to be disappointed in the new version.

Just because I like 6.5 better, doesn't mean there wasn't alot of cool things that has been added since. It is just the items that were taken away really made my experience a lot less enjoyable. The whole point of my post was to have this pre-order special last a week after the demo...and if I remember right, the demo came out right when the game came out...but maybe I am wrong, maybe the demo was a month after the release.

kckid4u · 04-25-2008, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirhawk

I have bought this game since OOTP 3 every year. And over the years, the game has gotten better and better. However, when OOTP 2006 came out, I felt ripped off....but I gave it a mulligan and purchased 2007. I was still not happy with the product. Mainly, once you merged, the product was too "sterile" for me. There seemed to be a lot of personality missing and I felt again, ripped off and just didn't have fun with the game.

So, why do I bring this up??? Well, if I "pre-order" a game that has been a disappointment in my eyes (still haven't found a more "personal" version since 6.5) the previous two iterations, then why should I give you my trust that you finally got back to what made the game fun? ie. fun play by play, the sweet standings/stat page, the manager dating/relationships, easier navigation through the menus etc.....

I propose that the pre-order discount should stick around for a week after the demo. It isn't about the money more than about the principal....why should I be charged more for a product when the last two versions weren't up to snuff?

Now I know I am gonna get flamed for saying all this, but when you change the recipe for a "fun" game too much, it loses what it once stood as....and that I do think is what has happened. I hope I am wrong this year, just don't think I should be "dinged" extra for paying after I see the demo.

Sirhawk

No one is forcing you to pre-order, or even purchase the game at all for that matter.

YankeePride · 04-25-2008, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by falkonisback

Yeah, I wish there was a forum where we could complain about the price of gasoline instead of the price of OOTP!!! LOL

Off Topic.

You can even suggest it's the reason America will eventually crumble worse than the Roman Empire.

kckid4u · 04-25-2008, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YankeePride

Off Topic.

You can even suggest it's the reason America will eventually crumble worse than the Roman Empire.

The Roman Empire crumbled? Crap, where was I when this happened?

cbbl · 04-25-2008, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirhawk

No, I am not here to "undermine" anyone. I rarely post on here and I just wished there was a better way to feel assured I am not going to be disappointed in the new version.

Sirhawk, the only way that will happen is for you to wait to order until you've played the demo and, if you find the game satisfactory, pay the full price of $39.95. It's like insurance. Is it worth giving up a $15 discount to be sure you'll like the game, or worth saving $15 to take the risk that you might not?

Who Killed Kenny? · 04-25-2008, 01:27 PM

Let's think about this mathematically:

****Warning MATH Below!!****

Value of pre-ordering: $25
Value of not pre-ordering: $40
Value of enjoying the game: $E
Value of not enjoying the game: $0
Probability of enjoying the game: 1/2. Lets say theres a 50-50 chance that you'll like the next version.

Expected value = (Value of A)*(Prob of A happening) + (Value of B) * (Prob of B happening)

The Expected Value of pre-order is:
= Value of enjoying the pre-order times 1/2 + Value of not enjoying the pre-order times 1/2
= (E - 25)*(1/2) + (0 - 25)*(1/2)
= (E / 2) - (25 / 2) - (25 / 2)
= (E / 2) - 25

The Expected Value of waiting is a little different since you get to view the demo. Let's say that you will NOT get the game if you do not like the demo. Therefore there is close to 100% chance you'll like the game. The expected value is:
= (E - 40)*(1) + (0 - 40)*(0)
= E - 40

The actual difference in price is $15 so in order for pre-ordering to make sense the difference in the Expected Values should be greater that $15.
So what is the difference in Expected Value of Waiting versus Expected Value of Pre-ordering?
15 <= (E - 40) - ((E / 2) - 25)
15 <= E - 40 - (E / 2) + 25
15 <= (E / 2) - 15

Now we solve for E to find the minimum amount of enjoyment you'll need to make pre-order feasible.

15 <= (E / 2) - 15
30 <= E / 2
60 <= E

Therefore, if you think that you'll get at least $60 worth out of the game based on a 50-50 chance that'll you enjoy it, pre-ordering is the best option.
QED.

Sirhawk · 04-25-2008, 01:40 PM

Wow!...uh...could you help me with my algebra???

It isn't a dollars and cents issue for me. 15 bucks is not the issue. It was all about the principle of a game being worth a pre-order, when I was disappointed in the last 2 versions(and pre-ordered it!). I am trying to voice the opinion of wanting the old pieces of the game put back in with the inclusion of what was cool from the newer ones. Buying it sight unseen after being burned by the last two made me feel that i should not trust the game til the demo....which what I am going to do. Was just hoping if the demo was out right away, to keep the price at the pre-order price for a week, not for the money savings, but the principle of not having my faith broken again. Hope that makes sense

Sirhawk

04-25-2008, 11:43 AM	#1 (permalink)
Sirhawk Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 91	A problem I see with your "pre-ordering" .... I have bought this game since OOTP 3 every year. And over the years, the game has gotten better and better. However, when OOTP 2006 came out, I felt ripped off....but I gave it a mulligan and purchased 2007. I was still not happy with the product. Mainly, once you merged, the product was too "sterile" for me. There seemed to be a lot of personality missing and I felt again, ripped off and just didn't have fun with the game. So, why do I bring this up??? Well, if I "pre-order" a game that has been a disappointment in my eyes (still haven't found a more "personal" version since 6.5) the previous two iterations, then why should I give you my trust that you finally got back to what made the game fun? ie. fun play by play, the sweet standings/stat page, the manager dating/relationships, easier navigation through the menus etc..... I propose that the pre-order discount should stick around for a week after the demo. It isn't about the money more than about the principal....why should I be charged more for a product when the last two versions weren't up to snuff? Now I know I am gonna get flamed for saying all this, but when you change the recipe for a "fun" game too much, it loses what it once stood as....and that I do think is what has happened. I hope I am wrong this year, just don't think I should be "dinged" extra for paying after I see the demo. Sirhawk

04-25-2008, 12:01 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ryan W. Jack of all trades Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Somewhere, not sure where. Maybe nearby, maybe far away. Posts: 777	I guess everyone has their own preferences. Personally, I think OOTP 2007/OOTP9 was his best one, followed by 6.5. The additions that have happened to the game engine, the AI is much better and scouting around the world can find you that "diamond in the rough". Now, Markus is trying to reward his loyal customers who purchase his game every year by giving them a $15 break. Times are tough now. The dollar is weak around the world, therefore Markus is making a lot LESS on this version then previous versions (even with the rate hike). He's not doing it to be greedy, he's doing it to survive. He is an independent game developer who is trying to make a living. If you want to continue supporting him and the OOTP series, pay the $24.95. If you want to wait for the demo, play that and, if you like it, pay the $39.95. Your choice. If you are perfectly content with OOTP 6.5, stick with it. It's still a great game. Just my $0.02... Last edited by Ryan W. : 04-25-2008 at 12:02 PM.

04-25-2008, 12:36 PM	#9 (permalink)
cbbl All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 652	The pre-order discount is a risk and reward proposition, isn't it? The base price is $40. If you order now, sight unseen, you save $15. The risk is you won't like the product when it is released. For taking that risk, OOTP will give you $15. In reality, the pre-order discount is an tactic to intice buyers to purchase the game now and infuse the developer with cash up front. The risk/reward scenario plays out on OOTP's side as well -- they sacrifice $15 to get cash now rather than later and to get committed sales. So, there are the rules. Save $15, but take the chance. We ALL agree (with few dissenters) that OOTP 2006 was this series' nadir, but I think most feel that OOTP 2007/8 restored our faith -- and that to save $15, taking the next leap of faith is a risk well worth its potential reward. I hope you agree. Last edited by cbbl : 04-25-2008 at 12:37 PM.

04-25-2008, 12:39 PM	#12 (permalink)
falkonisback Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 416	Yeah, I wish there was a forum where we could complain about the price of gasoline instead of the price of OOTP!!! LOL __________________ GM of the OBL - Cincinnati Reds (811-898, .477) 1938 NL West Champs 1938 National League Champs GM of the SSBL - Atlanta Braves (451-325, .581) 2022, 2024-2026 NL East Champs 2024 National League Champs GM of the BJHL - Avery Island Hot Peppers (235-251, .484)

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04-25-2008, 12:26 PM	#5 (permalink)
Sirhawk Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 91	I guess I have lost my faith....when you take too much stuff out of a game and then repackage it with other features, it sometimes loses its luster...that is my take on it.

04-25-2008, 12:34 PM	#7 (permalink)
Sirhawk Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 91	I didn't say 07 was a ripoff...I said 06 was...I just was still not having fun with 07..too many missing pieces that were in 6.5...those pieces just added up to a game missing a personality and genuine fun for me.

04-25-2008, 12:36 PM	#8 (permalink)
Sirhawk Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 91	Oops...I guess I did say that... Well, maybe ripped off is a bit strong for 07....more like, still disappointed.

04-25-2008, 12:43 PM	#14 (permalink)
Sirhawk Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 91	No, I am not here to "undermine" anyone. I rarely post on here and I just wished there was a better way to feel assured I am not going to be disappointed in the new version. Just because I like 6.5 better, doesn't mean there wasn't alot of cool things that has been added since. It is just the items that were taken away really made my experience a lot less enjoyable. The whole point of my post was to have this pre-order special last a week after the demo...and if I remember right, the demo came out right when the game came out...but maybe I am wrong, maybe the demo was a month after the release.

04-25-2008, 01:27 PM	#19 (permalink)
Who Killed Kenny? Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 216	Let's think about this mathematically: **Warning MATH Below!!** Value of pre-ordering: $25 Value of not pre-ordering: $40 Value of enjoying the game: $E Value of not enjoying the game: $0 Probability of enjoying the game: 1/2. Lets say theres a 50-50 chance that you'll like the next version. Expected value = (Value of A)(Prob of A happening) + (Value of B) (Prob of B happening) The Expected Value of pre-order is: = Value of enjoying the pre-order times 1/2 + Value of not enjoying the pre-order times 1/2 = (E - 25)(1/2) + (0 - 25)(1/2) = (E / 2) - (25 / 2) - (25 / 2) = (E / 2) - 25 The Expected Value of waiting is a little different since you get to view the demo. Let's say that you will NOT get the game if you do not like the demo. Therefore there is close to 100% chance you'll like the game. The expected value is: = (E - 40)(1) + (0 - 40)(0) = E - 40 The actual difference in price is $15 so in order for pre-ordering to make sense the difference in the Expected Values should be greater that $15. So what is the difference in Expected Value of Waiting versus Expected Value of Pre-ordering? 15 <= (E - 40) - ((E / 2) - 25) 15 <= E - 40 - (E / 2) + 25 15 <= (E / 2) - 15 Now we solve for E to find the minimum amount of enjoyment you'll need to make pre-order feasible. 15 <= (E / 2) - 15 30 <= E / 2 60 <= E Therefore, if you think that you'll get at least $60 worth out of the game based on a 50-50 chance that'll you enjoy it, pre-ordering is the best option. QED.

04-25-2008, 01:40 PM	#20 (permalink)
Sirhawk Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 91	Wow!...uh...could you help me with my algebra??? It isn't a dollars and cents issue for me. 15 bucks is not the issue. It was all about the principle of a game being worth a pre-order, when I was disappointed in the last 2 versions(and pre-ordered it!). I am trying to voice the opinion of wanting the old pieces of the game put back in with the inclusion of what was cool from the newer ones. Buying it sight unseen after being burned by the last two made me feel that i should not trust the game til the demo....which what I am going to do. Was just hoping if the demo was out right away, to keep the price at the pre-order price for a week, not for the money savings, but the principle of not having my faith broken again. Hope that makes sense Sirhawk