6 new OOTP 9 screens

[PotatoPeeler]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

You've clearly never watched BBC Parliament for any length of time

Or read any of the other threads around here.

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by kq76

This discussion is surreal. I don't think I've ever seen a topic debated so much that meant so little.

If I got one, my vote would probably go to one inactive list that had a column that clearly labeled what the person was on it for (disability, suspension, whatever) and another for how long they had left.

Yeah, yeah. I couldn't help commenting either.

Maybe it means so little to you, but judging by the participation of the thread I'd say it means a tad more than just a "little" to a lot of OOTP players.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by BruceM

Maybe it means so little to you, but judging by the participation of the thread I'd say it means a tad more than just a "little" to a lot of OOTP players.

It's the little things that cause the most arguments. Look up "colour of the bikeshed" on wikipedia.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

That's approximately 2 or 3 too many IMO.

Well, be thankful OOTP was made prior to 1990. Because if it had been, and it recreated the Disabled List rules from that time, you'd have to deal with four DLs: the regular DL, the supplemental DL, the special DL, and the emergency DL.


I would say it's important to get the transactions rules right because being a GM means dealing with those rules. It's a part of the job, and part of the challenge. So that challenge ought to be recreated in the game.

Naturally, some simplification or streamlining of real-world rules where appropriate is understandable. The debate lies around the nature of that simplification and/or streamlining.

As to a Military List, it's main application is for historical leagues and properly recreating the effect that WWII (and to a lesser extent Korea and other conflicts) had on major league rosters. Though it would add an interesting twist for a fictional league...

[kq76]

Originally Posted by BruceM

Maybe it means so little to you, but judging by the participation of the thread I'd say it means a tad more than just a "little" to a lot of OOTP players.

It's my impression that it's really just a matter of how to display it. By the sounds of it Markus isn't going to just lump them all together and have them all use the same rules. It sounds like they will abide by the rules of the appropriate list, he just doesn't want to have to make people select a separate menu to bring up a list that has maybe one lousy guy on it. That would be like having to select the menu to see who was just eligible for the r5d, and again for those who have minor league options, and again for those who can refuse assignment to the minors, etc. That could be useful at times, sure, but it's really not all that useful and I think separate inactive lists would be even less useful than a single one that shows why they're on it and for how long.

[Syd Thrift]

The challenge should get recreated... to a point. I sincerely doubt that many people view having to choose which list to put a player on as one of the real challenges of a general manger. Streamlined and easy to use need not mean less complicated either. This is one of these features that's probably best left "under the hood". Have suspended players automatically go on the "suspended list" and generate a note to the GM when they're due to come off of it, for example.

I think I'd just leave things with an Active and an Inactive List. Baseball sort of calls the latter the Disabled List but OOTP doesn't just simulate Major League Baseball. Then I guess you could put little alphanumeric designations as to why the player is suspended (I for injured, S for suspended, M for military and so on). That seems like it would be the best of both worlds. I'm just afraid of the game turning into Dwarf Fortress.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Then I guess you could put little alphanumeric designations as to why the player is suspended (I for injured, S for suspended, M for military and so on). That seems like it would be the best of both worlds.

If more realistic roster and transaction rules are made user-selectable, then those who don't want to deal with such things could just turn them off, much as they can free agency, Rule 5 draft, etc.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

If more realistic roster and transaction rules are made user-selectable, then those who don't want to deal with such things could just turn them off, much as they can free agency, Rule 5 draft, etc.

This is kind of my argument. We need more options for rules, especially roster and financial rules. As I said earlier, the ideal situation would have all the lists you mentioned above, and various rules for them (or not using them) as options.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

If more realistic roster and transaction rules are made user-selectable, then those who don't want to deal with such things could just turn them off, much as they can free agency, Rule 5 draft, etc.

I like options too, and to be honest I would probably use all these lists because I'm that kind of guy, but at the same time I talk to too many people in my day job who are just plain perplexed because our website gives one type of its users so many options that the end result is a confusing mess. It doesn't matter whether or not you provide it as an option. You will make the game more confusing to new users if you have 4 different kinds of lists for players who can't suit up today.

This goes double for people who want to get into OOTP after giving, say, WWSM or EHM or FOF a whirl. These are people who eventually will, no doubt, be tweaking their game all to heck because that's how they get their enjoyment out of a product like this, but at the same time they need the ability to crawl before they can walk, so to speak. If you don't follow baseball as avidly as you do or I do for that matter, you might not have any idea what the difference between the Disabled List and the Suspended list is, or why the Bereavement List even exists. The difference between the 15 day and the 60 day DL might be the edge of what you could handle the first couple times around. Yes, you could read the (now 300+ page) manual, and again some of us like to have big long manuals we can read for pleasure in the bathtub, but a lot of people just want to play baseball.

My other issue here is that when Markus puts stuff into the game a couple weeks before it comes out (and from what it sounds like, the game is close to being released), it tends to not be playtested terribly well. How could it possibly be playtested as well as a feature that was added back in January? Even if the beta team concentrates on the feature, extra things are going to come up as a result of long term sims, of people playing out games instead of quick-simming them, of people accidentally using the lists for purposes other than what they're supposed to be used for, and so on. I think that something like this deserves the attention that the fanbase, the beta team, and the developers. This does not strike me as a quick little add-on that will work great right out of the box, particularly when you take into account the fact that opposing AI is going to need to understand these lists as well.

[blackrussian]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I like options too, and to be honest I would probably use all these lists because I'm that kind of guy, but at the same time I talk to too many people in my day job who are just plain perplexed because our website gives one type of its users so many options that the end result is a confusing mess. It doesn't matter whether or not you provide it as an option. You will make the game more confusing to new users if you have 4 different kinds of lists for players who can't suit up today.

This goes double for people who want to get into OOTP after giving, say, WWSM or EHM or FOF a whirl. These are people who eventually will, no doubt, be tweaking their game all to heck because that's how they get their enjoyment out of a product like this, but at the same time they need the ability to crawl before they can walk, so to speak. If you don't follow baseball as avidly as you do or I do for that matter, you might not have any idea what the difference between the Disabled List and the Suspended list is, or why the Bereavement List even exists. The difference between the 15 day and the 60 day DL might be the edge of what you could handle the first couple times around. Yes, you could read the (now 300+ page) manual, and again some of us like to have big long manuals we can read for pleasure in the bathtub, but a lot of people just want to play baseball.

My other issue here is that when Markus puts stuff into the game a couple weeks before it comes out (and from what it sounds like, the game is close to being released), it tends to not be playtested terribly well. How could it possibly be playtested as well as a feature that was added back in January? Even if the beta team concentrates on the feature, extra things are going to come up as a result of long term sims, of people playing out games instead of quick-simming them, of people accidentally using the lists for purposes other than what they're supposed to be used for, and so on. I think that something like this deserves the attention that the fanbase, the beta team, and the developers. This does not strike me as a quick little add-on that will work great right out of the box, particularly when you take into account the fact that opposing AI is going to need to understand these lists as well.

well historically we've usually needed a couple of patches to right the ship and have the game be stable enough to play seriously (at least without destroying all the effort one has put it to set up a league). at least with these additions (fights, drugs and subsequent suspensions) we can turn them off if something isnt working right. but its a little disappointing that the issue of what to actually do with these suspended players is just being addressed now. i dunno, maybe it will be easy to add some sort of suspended/restricted list but something tells me not, at least with our experience with how the AI has handled the roster moves in the past. its a pretty sensitive area and the logic has to be spot on.

in terms of the options though, i think at some point you have to concede that the game is sophisticated and does require some understanding of the game outside balls and strikes (to simplify quite a bit). these days the gaming crowd is probably able to handle, and enjoy, something more sophisticated than simple replay games, or arcade style simulations. just as many fans, casual or serious, demand and understand more dynamic and complex content (look at the espn/mlb sites) so it goes for this game.

you cant please everyone and people that want to jump in quickly are bound to be disappointed, not get into the game and not buy it. ive had this happen a few times w/friends ive introduced OOTP to. some have given up pretty quick, others have stuck to it. the great thing is that is a competitive market for the niche that it is. there are simpler games, arcade game, hell you can go play in the strat tournaments if you want to

im just thrilled that theres a game like this to cater to whatever whim i have.

[tysok]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

If more realistic roster and transaction rules are made user-selectable, then those who don't want to deal with such things could just turn them off, much as they can free agency, Rule 5 draft, etc.

Having seperate lists is a detail that has no real reason to be simulated though.

It may even be a detail that doesn't actually exist. These are reasons, but there's probably not all of these seperate lists at MLB headquarters with someone sitting there adding and subtracting names. There may be a list of inactive players there, and all of them are noted what type of reason they're inactive. The important part is how the game treats the player who is inactive... not that there's another list to pull up to put him on. It's important that a guy inactive because of bereavement is treated appropriately, and the guy inactive because of suspension is treated appropriately, and the guy inactive because of disability is treated appropriately...... but it's not important that we pull up the bereavement list and see who all is there.

It's a detail of the overall picture. The game shouldn't get bogged down in useless details, it should simulate the overall picture correctly.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by tysok

Having seperate lists is a detail that has no real reason to be simulated though.

It may even be a detail that doesn't actually exist. These are reasons, but there's probably not all of these seperate lists at MLB headquarters with someone sitting there adding and subtracting names. There may be a list of inactive players there, and all of them are noted what type of reason they're inactive. The important part is how the game treats the player who is inactive... not that there's another list to pull up to put him on. It's important that a guy inactive because of bereavement is treated appropriately, and the guy inactive because of suspension is treated appropriately, and the guy inactive because of disability is treated appropriately...... but it's not important that we pull up the bereavement list and see who all is there.

It's a detail of the overall picture. The game shouldn't get bogged down in useless details, it should simulate the overall picture correctly.

I agree with this post and if the poster produces a news-based magazine that has its share of light, airy topics, I would like to subscribe to it.

[r0nster]

The stats mentioned in story do not match up with the stats on lower right corner under picture. 18HRs in story and 22HRs below picture. Average and RBIs is off too.

I do like the screenshots overall good job .... just wanted to give heads up on that

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by tysok

Having seperate lists is a detail that has no real reason to be simulated though.

It may even be a detail that doesn't actually exist. These are reasons, but there's probably not all of these seperate lists at MLB headquarters with someone sitting there adding and subtracting names. There may be a list of inactive players there, and all of them are noted what type of reason they're inactive. The important part is how the game treats the player who is inactive... not that there's another list to pull up to put him on. It's important that a guy inactive because of bereavement is treated appropriately, and the guy inactive because of suspension is treated appropriately, and the guy inactive because of disability is treated appropriately...... but it's not important that we pull up the bereavement list and see who all is there.

It's a detail of the overall picture. The game shouldn't get bogged down in useless details, it should simulate the overall picture correctly.

I don't consider them useless details at all. If I have an inactive player, i want to know why and how long he's inactive for. There doesn't necessarily have to be a seperate list for each detail, but the game has to provide the details of each situation.

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by r0nster

The stats mentioned in story do not match up with the stats on lower right corner under picture. 18HRs in story and 22HRs below picture. Average and RBIs is off too.

I do like the screenshots overall good job .... just wanted to give heads up on that

This taken from page 12 of this thread.

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

That's because the news is older than the league date... the player card always displays the most up-to-date stats.

[Kelric]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

OK, I added a checkbox 'Include retired players' in the 'All Players'-section of the league transaction screen

Awesome. Will make selecting players for the Hall of Fame so much easier. No more sorting through all of the retired guys one by one, now I can set some benchmark stats.

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

I think a good compromise would be to have three lists:

Active
Disabled
Suspended

Maybe the others (military would be useful for historical leagues!) could be added at a later date.

A military list would be a beautiful thing to have for a future version (or a patch).

[tysok]

Originally Posted by BruceM

I don't consider them useless details at all. If I have an inactive player, i want to know why and how long he's inactive for. There doesn't necessarily have to be a seperate list for each detail, but the game has to provide the details of each situation.

I didn't say all inactive players should go on the 15 or 60 day DL.

Originally Posted by tysok

The important part is how the game treats the player who is inactive... not that there's another list to pull up to put him on. It's important that a guy inactive because of bereavement is treated appropriately, and the guy inactive because of suspension is treated appropriately, and the guy inactive because of disability is treated appropriately...... but it's not important that we pull up the bereavement list and see who all is there.

Obviously by "treated appropriately" I mean you see he's there because of bereavement or suspension and how long he's out for.

Having a bereavement list, and being able to pull up and see who all is on that list, is the useless detail.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

It doesn't matter whether or not you provide it as an option. You will make the game more confusing to new users if you have 4 different kinds of lists for players who can't suit up today.

There's a relatively simple way around that sort of complexity problem, and I've proposed it before: difficulty level settings. Take a look at most strategy games and you'll find there are difficulty level settings which give the player a way to ease into learning the game's mechanics.

OOTP could easily incorporate something similar. At the easiest or simplest level setting, by default you could have the financial system turned off, no optioning of players, no waivers, etc., allowing a new user to learn the game and just concentrate on managing their roster without getting bogged down in the various transaction rules. Then the next setting up might introduce, say, options and waivers. The next level after that might introduce free agency. And so on. You have a graduated set of levels which allow the user with one click to set up the rules their game will be operating under.

And for those who like to tinker, you can always customize your level settings by enabling or disabling various game rule options.

It's a bit strange really that OOTP doesn't offer this sort of quick difficulty level settings.

[Bobbuttons]

Here's a question for Markus that is very relavent, I think.

Do Germans still love David Hasselhoff, and if so, any thoughts of putting him in the title screen for OOTP 9?

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Bobbuttons

Here's a question for Markus that is very relavent, I think.

Do Germans still love David Hasselhoff, and if so, any thoughts of putting him in the title screen for OOTP 9?

David who?