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#21 (permalink) | |
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All Star Reserve
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacifica, CA
Posts: 787
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Quote:
__________________
I cast this question into your soul, that I might know how deep it is - Friedrich Nietzsche It often shows a fine command of language - to say nothing! - Bertrand Russell |
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#22 (permalink) | |
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Minors (Rookie Ball)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35
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Quote:
But then there's the subject of the L/R split as applied to hitting production, which I also find a bit muted in the game. But that's for another thread.... |
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#23 (permalink) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Minors (Triple A)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 230
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So after going through the 2007 data looking for the impact of the length of road trips it is pretty clear that the length of home stands and road trips don't account for the .540 winning percentage for home teams.
There are a number of potential factors driving the home filed advantage. Some are easier to quantify than others. Some of the first things to come to mind are: - Advantage of batting last in the ninth so you know what you have to do strategy-wise to win the game. For example, if the game is tied going into the ninth then the road team wants to score at least one run but they can't assume that one run is enough. At the same time the home team goes into the bottom of the ninth of a tied game knowing that playing for one run wins the game. - Fielding advantages of playing in the home park. This would be interesting to break down and I think that it is a significant factor. However, like most fielding questions, it would be challenging to measure this. I think that the differences in outfield fence configurations, wind patterns and the way turf effects bounces have a real impact on defensive performance between home and road teams. - Hitters may have somewhat of an advantage batting where they have a familiar hitting background. - The home crowd can provide that boost of support to provide confidence in the home team. While all of these are real factors there is one area where there are some simple measurements to look at. Pitching. The chart below shows some core pitching stats from 2007.
The most obvious is ERA where the home pitchers have an ERA that is 8% lower than road pitchers. The problem here is that this stat is a cumulation of the efforts of the teams. Side note, the expected pyth winning percentage of the home team based on the ERA split above is .533. The two things that a pitcher has the most control over are strikeouts and walks. Home pitchers have a 4.3% higher K/9 rate than road pitchers, an 8.2% lower BB/9 rate and a 12.9% higher K/BB ratio. So why are there these differences? As noted earlier, there could be some advantage for home hitters being familiar with the batting background. This could help them judge balls and strikes a bit better at home. However, I think that there is a more important factor, the pitcher's mound. Every grounds crew shapes their mound a little differently meaning that no two are exactly alike. It doesn't take much to throw a pitcher's mechanics off enough to make a few strikes turn into balls. The fact that the home/road walk rates appear to be impacted more than the strikeout rates supports the idea that there is a home-mound advantage for pitchers. If the mound is a significant factor in a pitcher's control then you would expect to see walks jump up. I would be intersted in doing a deeper analysis on the expected impact of just the walk and strikeout rate differences on run production. I have a feeling that these factors make up a good chunk of the home/road run production splits and therefore a significant portion of the home field advantage. Thoughts? |
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#24 (permalink) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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All Star Reserve
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacifica, CA
Posts: 787
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Quote:
__________________
I cast this question into your soul, that I might know how deep it is - Friedrich Nietzsche It often shows a fine command of language - to say nothing! - Bertrand Russell |
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#26 (permalink) | |
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All Star Reserve
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacifica, CA
Posts: 787
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Quote:
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__________________
I cast this question into your soul, that I might know how deep it is - Friedrich Nietzsche It often shows a fine command of language - to say nothing! - Bertrand Russell |
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#27 (permalink) | |
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Minors (Rookie Ball)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35
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Quote:
The real question is why the HFA is LESS significant than in other sports. I believe it's above 60% in most of them. Especially college football. ESPN has a poll up asking which sport has the greatest home field advantage. NBA leads with 46%, NFL in 2nd at 41% and NHL and MLB are tied at 6%. Before this poll, all I heard from friends was that the NBA had by far the greatest home field advantage. |
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#28 (permalink) | |
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Minors (Triple A)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 230
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Quote:
I would be curious if the home-road K/BB differences that I discussed in an earlier post are greater in late inning clutch situations than at other points in the game. You could take it a step further and see if attendance is a factor. I don't see 5000 apathetic Marlins fans having as much of an impact on an umps calls as 50,000 rabid Yankee fans. |
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#29 (permalink) | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Scheduleslovakia
Posts: 6,183
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Quote:
Repeat the analysis looking at ten or twenty seasons' worth of data. Note that average length of scheduled home stands and road trips are much shorter now compared to earlier years. In 1915, the average of the longest scheduled home stands was 22.1 games (with the range being 17-27), while the average of the longest scheduled road trips was 21.6 games (15-28 was the range); in 1965, these averages were 14.3 and 14.3, respectively; in 2005, the averages were 11.7 and 11.5, respectively.
__________________
. "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win." . Last edited by Le Grande Orange : 05-19-2008 at 06:51 PM. |
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#30 (permalink) | |
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Minors (Triple A)
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 230
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Quote:
Any suggestions on sites to copy data other than ESPN or similar sites? |
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#32 (permalink) | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Scheduleslovakia
Posts: 6,183
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Quote:
What about using Retrosheet's game logs? Those have the game-by-game results for each regular season.
__________________
. "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win." . |
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#33 (permalink) |
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Minors (Double A)
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 111
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I think HFA is a mix of many things, some intangible. For instance in Football (Soccer) there is without doubt a different mental approach from most away teams than when they play at home. With the draw (tie) being an outcome in football many away teams approach a game with the intention of trying not to lose it, rather than trying to win the game. Also I would think the crowd influence both on the team and on occasions the pressure on the referee has an impact on decisions, although again marginal. Across all the European leagues away wins account for around 25% of results.
The interesting thing on the previous chart on the 2007 MLB road trips is that the first three games fell into the .4's percentage wise. The next three, or more likely the second series on the trip, came out higher. It does appear that travel, home comfort, has some effect but how you could ever get a true measure of it I don't know. It's certainly a fascinating subject and lots of elements come into play. The mindset of players, familiarity of the home stadium, home support and many more. |
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#34 (permalink) |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 2,300
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As per the above I went into the Retrosheet game logs and examined the results of games ending after X innings and winning percentage after Z games played consecutively at home or away.
I looked at two periods: 1920-2007 and 1972-2007. Results are very similar for the two periods. First overall home field advantage in all games separated by length in innings. Home teams average that 54% winning percentage overall, but only ~52% in extra inning games. I believe this is consistent with home teams performing better and batting last being of much less significance. The HFA is about half a percent less for 1972-2007 (53.88%) compared to 1920-1971 (54.35%). Guessing, I think that is probably statistically significant, which may merit speculation. But for me here it is all about 54%. Code:
1920-2007 |1972-2007
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Game Home Away |Game Home Away
ended wins wins |ended wins wins
Inn 5: 71 98 |Inn 5: 5 27
Inn 6: 130 142 |Inn 6: 41 38
Inn 7: 159 137 |Inn 7: 37 38
Inn 8: 145 136 |Inn 8: 25 25
Inn 9: 57845 68767 |Inn 9: 32144 37813
Inn 10: 2765 3000 |Inn 10: 1470 1678
Inn 11: 1545 1686 |Inn 11: 850 906
Inn 12: 853 940 |Inn 12: 471 500
Inn 13: 475 497 |Inn 13: 260 266
Inn 14: 250 310 |Inn 14: 147 160
Inn 15: 140 145 |Inn 15: 79 69
Inn 16: 73 97 |Inn 16: 37 47
Inn 17: 43 46 |Inn 17: 28 23
Inn 18: 23 24 |Inn 18: 14 16
Inn 19+: 28 24 |Inn 19+: 15 14
Total: 64545 76049 : HFA (0.5409) | Total: 35623 41620 : HFA (0.5388)
upto9: 58350 69280 : HFA (0.5428) | upto9: 32252 37941 : HFA (0.5405)
Extra: 6195 6769 : HFA (0.5221) | Extra: 3371 3679 : HFA (0.5218)
Code:
1920-2007 |1972-2007
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Homestand Home Away |Homestand Home Away
game # wins wins |game # wins wins
home 1 : 10506 8614 (0.5495) |home 1 : 6042 5138 (0.5404)
home 2 : 10034 8650 (0.5370) |home 2 : 5963 5171 (0.5356)
home 3 : 9623 8189 (0.5403) |home 3 : 5805 5022 (0.5362)
home 4 : 8431 7201 (0.5393) |home 4 : 5067 4425 (0.5338)
home 5 : 7715 6707 (0.5349) |home 5 : 4804 4109 (0.5390)
home 6 : 7181 6014 (0.5442) |home 6 : 4486 3723 (0.5465)
home 7 : 5361 4673 (0.5343) |home 7 : 3049 2648 (0.5352)
home 8 : 4191 3472 (0.5469) |home 8 : 2163 1723 (0.5566)
home 9 : 3543 2958 (0.5450) |home 9 : 1721 1444 (0.5438)
home 10 : 2747 2286 (0.5458) |home 10 : 1113 931 (0.5445)
home 11 : 2062 1790 (0.5353) |home 11 : 630 547 (0.5353)
home 12 : 1688 1408 (0.5452) |home 12 : 391 357 (0.5227)
home 13 : 1348 1111 (0.5482) |home 13 : 222 223 (0.4989)
home 14 : 986 873 (0.5304) |home 14 : 86 96 (0.4725)
home 15 : 811 678 (0.5447) |home 15 : 40 34 (0.5405)
home 16 : 640 576 (0.5263) |home 16 : 18 14 (0.5625)
home 17 : 532 460 (0.5363) |home 17 : 11 10 (0.5238)
home 18+: 1618 1441 (0.5289) |home 18+: 9 8 (0.5294)
Code:
1920-2007 |1972-2007
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Road trip Away Home |Road trip Away Home
game # wins wins |game # wins wins
away 1 : 8694 10420 (0.4548) |away 1 : 5132 6046 (0.4591)
away 2 : 8531 10156 (0.4565) |away 2 : 5131 5993 (0.4613)
away 3 : 8375 9386 (0.4715) |away 3 : 5050 5723 (0.4688)
away 4 : 7200 8427 (0.4607) |away 4 : 4388 5097 (0.4626)
away 5 : 6701 7695 (0.4655) |away 5 : 4143 4786 (0.4640)
away 6 : 6045 7175 (0.4573) |away 6 : 3723 4510 (0.4522)
away 7 : 4625 5473 (0.4580) |away 7 : 2612 3080 (0.4589)
away 8 : 3520 4190 (0.4565) |away 8 : 1787 2115 (0.4580)
away 9 : 2955 3629 (0.4488) |away 9 : 1462 1726 (0.4586)
away 10 : 2346 2798 (0.4561) |away 10 : 969 1150 (0.4573)
away 11 : 1759 2100 (0.4558) |away 11 : 539 637 (0.4583)
away 12 : 1449 1635 (0.4698) |away 12 : 334 384 (0.4652)
away 13 : 1092 1315 (0.4537) |away 13 : 187 211 (0.4698)
away 14 : 883 976 (0.4750) |away 14 : 86 91 (0.4859)
away 15 : 643 816 (0.4407) |away 15 : 36 36 (0.5000)
away 16 : 527 668 (0.4410) |away 16 : 18 15 (0.5455)
away 17 : 425 535 (0.4427) |away 17 : 8 5 (0.6154)
away 18+: 1331 1623 (0.4506) |away 18+: 18 15 (0.5455)
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#35 (permalink) |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 2,300
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We can also look at runs scored from the Retrosheet game logs. I will only take innings 1-8 since from the 9th inning and beyond the home team often will not take all of the batting opportunities possible to them. Again we examine 1920-2007 and 1972-2007, which strongly resemble each other in their results.
First note that home teams score about 52.4% of the runs in innings 1-8. This percentage should not match the HFA winning percentage - for example, if home teams scored 75% of all runs they would win almost all games. There is quite a bit of variation by inning in percentage of runs scored by the home team. The 1st inning especially and to a lesser degree the 3rd & 5th innings see home teams scoring a greater percentage of the runs compared to other innings. Those innings would seem to be those where the top of the order (better hitters) would more often bat. So perhaps better hitters have more pronounced home/away differences. Another explanation may be that away SPs struggle (relative to how they perform at home) early on, especially in the 1st inning. Code:
1920-2007
Away (runs/ Home (runs/ Percent of runs
runs inning) runs inning) scored by home team
-------------------------------------------------
Inn 1: 73626 (0.5223) 86913 (0.6166) 54.14%
Inn 2: 59123 (0.4194) 65268 (0.4630) 52.47%
Inn 3: 66769 (0.4737) 74857 (0.5311) 52.86%
Inn 4: 68906 (0.4888) 74477 (0.5284) 51.94%
Inn 5: 67458 (0.4786) 74407 (0.5280) 52.45%
Inn 6: 70578 (0.5014) 76057 (0.5408) 51.87%
Inn 7: 67999 (0.4841) 73692 (0.5251) 52.01%
Inn 8: 67755 (0.4835) 72325 (0.5166) 51.63%
-------------------------------------------------
1-8 : 542214 597996 52.45%
_______________________________________________________
1972-2007
Away (runs/ Home (runs/ Percent of runs
runs inning) runs inning) scored by home team
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Inn 1: 40276 (0.5211) 47698 (0.6172) 54.22%
Inn 2: 33422 (0.4324) 36434 (0.4714) 52.16%
Inn 3: 37525 (0.4855) 41765 (0.5404) 52.67%
Inn 4: 38626 (0.4998) 41370 (0.5353) 51.72%
Inn 5: 37723 (0.4881) 41466 (0.5366) 52.36%
Inn 6: 39076 (0.5058) 42168 (0.5462) 51.90%
Inn 7: 37395 (0.4846) 40287 (0.5224) 51.86%
Inn 8: 36580 (0.4746) 38988 (0.5060) 51.59%
-------------------------------------------------
1-8 : 300623 330176 52.34%
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#36 (permalink) | |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 2,300
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Quote:
I guess the last post above with the differences in runs scored home/away by inning points to something a little more going on, but generally it seems a small general "help" for home players and a small general "hurt" for away players can take care of the home field advantage. Back in OOTP6 the BB & SO home/away differences were smaller than in MLB at least in one test I ran, but considering the above quote I would figure that the home/away stat differences and thus HFA win% probably work out to be very similar to the historical MLB numbers. |
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#37 (permalink) | ||
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Watertown, New York
Posts: 2,636
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Quote:
In case I didn't make that clear, my guess would have been that visiting teams were more likely to lose the first game in a different stadium than subsequent games, and less likely to lose that first day if it followed a day off. Based on the analyses performed by professor ape and gmo, it now looks to me as though there probably is no appreciable effect, though I would be grateful if someone could look into it. Quote:
If you do look at the attendance effect, don't forget that you'll need to factor out the correlation between team winning percentage and attendance. In doing so you might discover whether or not teams with higher winning percentages have higher (or lower) home field advantage, as was brought up above.
__________________
Continuing a campaign to promote adding a 'mass select' option to Out of the Park 10. *sigh* |
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#38 (permalink) | |
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Minors (Double A)
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Observing
Posts: 155
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Quote:
Interesting fact: the longer a game goes in terms of innings, the more likely the visiting team is to win. This isn't compelling evidence one way or the other -- it's probably just a selection bias, because, since there is a HFA, the fact that the game goes to extra innings suggests the visiting team is probably stronger. But, it's the opposite of what we'd expect to see if having last ups were decisive. |
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