Please, Oh Please, Fix This.

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

See, this game is a very big part of my life... it is my job, my hobby and my passion. And sometimes it just makes me sad when people say that it is bad in certain areas, without stating all the facts neccessary to prove that there is indeed a problem. When you play a game against the AI, lead by a run in the 9th, and the opposing team bats the reliever in the 9th while having 3 players rested on the bench, then there is a problem, and I'll gladly look into it and fix it. But just posting a single screenshot or game-log is not constructive at all, all it does is suggest that the game is bad when in fact it is pretty good... and it does shy away potential buyers who would otherwise support the game and our team with their purchase. And that does not amuse me at all.

Whenever I see developers post something like this, it always invokes the same response: I feel your pain, but game development is a thankless job. If you cannot endure constant criticism and complaints, including those like you mentioned, then game development is not the career for you. Just as game developers constantly remind everyone that bugs are a fact of gaming life, the same can be said for criticism from gamers. These are the facts of the gaming life, and they will NEVER change. Just as developers expect gamers to accept bugs, developers must accept criticism.

In my view, a game developer has to be obsessed with the endless pursuit of perfection and to never be satisfied with the game. That mindset has to be internalized, and the developer must be his own harshest critic. The developer needs to be so focused on continual improvement that the external criticism cannot discourage what is happening internally. Otherwise he is doomed to failure or burnout.

Markus, I can only hope for your sake and the sake of OOTP that you have that mindset. If you do, then this product should remain strong and continue to improve for years. I certainly appreciate your efforts, though I have been among the harshest critics of OOTP at times.

But, as others pointed out, there is enormous potential for this game if the AI can ever be improved to a more realistic level. I think the biggest challenge is with drafting and player personnel logic. OOTP is not that far away from huge success in those areas, so I hope we can help bring about the desired changes.

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

I only know that when I'm playing and this happens, I close my eyes and imagine it happening IRL on TV and the questions such a manager would have to answer to the media after the game.

Like Piniella allowing the pitcher to hit in the playoffs last year then immediately bringing in a reliever who blew the game. That, to me, is what you would expect from a computer game.

[gbmoore121]

While I agree with many of your points, I believe you missed his main conern. He was not opposed to the criticism, just criticism without the details. That's how I took it, at least.

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

Whenever I see developers post something like this, it always invokes the same response: I feel your pain, but game development is a thankless job. If you cannot endure constant criticism and complaints, including those like you mentioned, then game development is not the career for you. Just as game developers constantly remind everyone that bugs are a fact of gaming life, the same can be said for criticism from gamers. These are the facts of the gaming life, and they will NEVER change. Just as developers expect gamers to accept bugs, developers must accept criticism.

In my view, a game developer has to be obsessed with the endless pursuit of perfection and to never be satisfied with the game. That mindset has to be internalized, and the developer must be his own harshest critic. The developer needs to be so focused on continual improvement that the external criticism cannot discourage what is happening internally. Otherwise he is doomed to failure or burnout.

Markus, I can only hope for your sake and the sake of OOTP that you have that mindset. If you do, then this product should remain strong and continue to improve for years. I certainly appreciate your efforts, though I have been among the harshest critics of OOTP at times.

But, as others pointed out, there is enormous potential for this game if the AI can ever be improved to a more realistic level. I think the biggest challenge is with drafting and player personnel logic. OOTP is not that far away from huge success in those areas, so I hope we can help bring about the desired changes.

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by gbmoore121

While I agree with many of your points, I believe you missed his main concern. He was not opposed to the criticism, just criticism without the details. That's how I took it, at least.

Yes, but my point was intended to apply to ALL criticism, including instances when there is no supporting evidence offered. You have to be able to accept that sort of criticism along with the more constructive variety, otherwise you are going to become absolutely miserable.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by gbmoore121

While I agree with many of your points, I believe you missed his main conern. He was not opposed to the criticism, just criticism without the details. That's how I took it, at least.

Me too. There were posts suggesting that something was up with game settings as several posters (me included) have never seen it. However we walk a fine line between asking questions and being "see no evil" fanboys.

Edit; I meant to add that finding such a bug must be like the proverbial "needle in a haystack".

[gbmoore121]

Got ya. I was going off the start of your post "Whenever I see developers post something like this..."

Thought you were referring to that post only. I agree a thick thin is needed. I also agree that posts should include enough info to decipher if it is a bug or not.

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

Yes, but my point was intended to apply to ALL criticism, including instances when there is no supporting evidence offered. You have to be able to accept that sort of criticism along with the more constructive variety, otherwise you are going to become absolutely miserable.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

Ok, how I looked at April 4th, two outs, bottom of the ninth, trailing by 3 with a man on. So, if this guy reaches, it means the tying run would come to the plate. R. Diaz is a reliever, and he bats. I have posted the boxscore, the game log, and my settings (which are basically 1901 settings with some changed to Normal), and all player creation modifiers and league total modifiers set at 1.

IME when you set "use relievers" to "very rarely" the AI will not bring in more than 1 or at the most 2 relievers in the game. If you allow the AI to set its own rosters, the "very rarely" setting generally causes it to have 1 relief pitcher on the roster. If you have 4-man rotations, it will carry 5 pitchers. If you have 2-man rotations, it will carry 3.

If anything, though, the game overuses its relief pitchers at that level. One reason I started playing out all the games in my deadball-era league was that I got tired of finding relievers with 70 games and 140 innings pitched. When you set your "use relievers" to "very rarely" the issue IMO was not that it didn't pinch-hit for the reliever, it's that it brought the reliever into the game in the first place.

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

See, this game is a very big part of my life... it is my job, my hobby and my passion . . . just posting a single screenshot or game-log is not constructive at all, all it does is suggest that the game is bad when in fact it is pretty good... and it does shy away potential buyers who would otherwise support the game and our team with their purchase.

The proof is in the pudding, Markus. You seem to have a successful business with quite a few customers hanging on your every word about your newest product and eagerly awaiting its release. This includes people like me who have been critical at times; we are still here. New folks are going to see this excitement and loyalty and not be put off by occasional criticism. In 2006, given the amount of that criticism, maybe. Not in 2008; not so far.

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

If my criticism of baseball AI is taken as a personal attack, then, again, I apologize. That was not, and is not, my intention. If the offense is great enough that you would rather me not be a part of OOTP and the forums anymore, I understand. But please email me with some way to get a refund for my pre-order of OOTP 9, as I too was anxiously awaiting its release.

OFG, this is overreaction. Stick around; we need you. See if your problems are due to relatively small sample sizes.

Originally Posted by bababui

I think people are uber-critical about small parts of the game because the game is close to being what they would consider perfection..except for this one thing...

. . . or that one thing . . . good comment, this.

[myasu]

Old Fat Guy,

With all the respect to the tremendous effort you have given to learn about this game in a relatively short period of time, I ask you never to leave this community.

Your opinions/suggestions are very very important for the game.

All Markus is asking us is to submit the details of the potential problems of the game when you put it on the board.

I understand how Markus feels when he finds the thread titles like this when he has been working on the new version of the game hoping to make this into a better business. (If a potential customer of the game visits the board, and find thread titles that have words like "Fix", "Please", "AI Not Working", it must be so....discouraging, to say the least!)

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

Ok, how I looked at April 4th, two outs, bottom of the ninth, trailing by 3 with a man on. So, if this guy reaches, it means the tying run would come to the plate. R. Diaz is a reliever, and he bats. I have posted the boxscore, the game log, and my settings (which are basically 1901 settings with some changed to Normal), and all player creation modifiers and league total modifiers set at 1.

I still believe this is probably as good as any other AI out there, but there are weaknesses. If pointing out those weaknesses is offensive, than I apologize. If you would rather me not post anymore, so be it. However, I would then like a refund from my pre-order of OOTP 9.

I don't know how to post a screenshot PROVING they had rested players on the bench. I only know that when I'm playing and this happens, I close my eyes and imagine it happening IRL on TV and the questions such a manager would have to answer to the media after the game. And as far as the guy getting drafted one day and starting the next, I don't know what I could've done to make this "my fault". I didn't change the default way the AI values players, whatever that default is (I can't remember off the top of my head, something like 65% ratings, 30% statistics or something, I can't remember it but I DIDN'T CHANGE it.)

The problem with the drafted player, this was the EXACT same problem that occurred year after year after year EVERYTIME I played BM. To then move over to OOTP, basically fall in love with all of the options and depth, spend several months reading the manual and learning the interface (I will say this about BM, it was easier to learn), and then see the SAME THING happen, it freaked me out.

If my criticism of baseball AI is taken as a personal attack, then, again, I apologize. That was not, and is not, my intention. If the offense is great enough that you would rather me not be a part of OOTP and the forums anymore, I understand. But please email me with some way to get a refund for my pre-order of OOTP 9, as I too was anxiously awaiting its release.

EDIT: I forgot to add the screenshots again. Sorry.

Now that was enough info for me Your league setting for pinch hitting for pitchers is NOT a modern setting, so the AI does not behave the way we know it from todays baseball. If you set pinch hit for reliever to "very often", then the problem you describe never occurs. Thanks for the screenies!

Edit: For that draft pick being placed in the majors immediately I'd need the .dat league files the moment this happens. I think the reason probably is that Baltimore had lots of guys injured, and he was barely good enough for the #5 rotation slot. For the rotation the AI always picks the 5 best pitchers who can start, no matter what their previous league level was or where they came from. So, Baltimore was probably in a terrible situation, and just did what every GM should do: Pick the 5 best guys.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

Whenever I see developers post something like this, it always invokes the same response: I feel your pain, but game development is a thankless job. If you cannot endure constant criticism and complaints, including those like you mentioned, then game development is not the career for you. Just as game developers constantly remind everyone that bugs are a fact of gaming life, the same can be said for criticism from gamers. These are the facts of the gaming life, and they will NEVER change. Just as developers expect gamers to accept bugs, developers must accept criticism.

In my view, a game developer has to be obsessed with the endless pursuit of perfection and to never be satisfied with the game. That mindset has to be internalized, and the developer must be his own harshest critic. The developer needs to be so focused on continual improvement that the external criticism cannot discourage what is happening internally. Otherwise he is doomed to failure or burnout.

Markus, I can only hope for your sake and the sake of OOTP that you have that mindset. If you do, then this product should remain strong and continue to improve for years. I certainly appreciate your efforts, though I have been among the harshest critics of OOTP at times.

But, as others pointed out, there is enormous potential for this game if the AI can ever be improved to a more realistic level. I think the biggest challenge is with drafting and player personnel logic. OOTP is not that far away from huge success in those areas, so I hope we can help bring about the desired changes.

I have been doing this for almost 10 years now, so I guess I have chosen the right career What you say is correct, but you cannot keep your cool all the time, otherwise you'll explode one day...

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

IME when you set "use relievers" to "very rarely" the AI will not bring in more than 1 or at the most 2 relievers in the game. If you allow the AI to set its own rosters, the "very rarely" setting generally causes it to have 1 relief pitcher on the roster. If you have 4-man rotations, it will carry 5 pitchers. If you have 2-man rotations, it will carry 3.

If anything, though, the game overuses its relief pitchers at that level. One reason I started playing out all the games in my deadball-era league was that I got tired of finding relievers with 70 games and 140 innings pitched. When you set your "use relievers" to "very rarely" the issue IMO was not that it didn't pinch-hit for the reliever, it's that it brought the reliever into the game in the first place.

That is another possibility.

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by zekester91

I think this happens more when you import real rookies as the DB (at least the one that comes with the game) is by when they became Major leaguers, so they get imported as near ready ML. If they where not near ready ML you would be cutting 3 or more years off thier carrers as thier ages are already early to mid 20's. That is why one of the things that was irecommended f your importing real rookies is to move the draft to post season/offseason so that you don't have these players reaching the Majors like this.

If it's game created players maybe the player creation modifiers need to be turned down a little.

With feeder leagues, I've at least noticed that it is rarer for these players to jump straight to the majors, but YMMV.

Actually, yeah, I usually put my draft in the offseason. Though, that was mainly due to the fact i didnt want to have to deal with finding room for a bunch of draftees in the middle of the year. It got just too annoying. I got to studying the numbers too much. And thinking too hard on what is a hobby. It just felt easier to move around the players at beginning of the season and tweak as i go.

Note: as for studying numbers, I mean attributes and stuff. I like to try to analyze the player, what I want from him, gauge his future, where would be over his head etc. And put him in regards to that input. This takes a while. It was too frustrating and time-consuming to do this in the middle of the season.

[winit87]

Newbie... so please let me know if I don't know what I'm talking about!!!!!


This might be why I am looking for an option after the draft to "contact" all the draftees, sign them and send them to Rookie, Short-season , etc so they don't get scattered across your minor league system

I think one of the best part of the game is drafting and watching these players develop in the minors even if your #1 pick from 2005 turns out to be a bust.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Now that was enough info for me Your league setting for pinch hitting for pitchers is NOT a modern setting, so the AI does not behave the way we know it from todays baseball. If you set pinch hit for reliever to "very often", then the problem you describe never occurs. Thanks for the screenies!

Edit: For that draft pick being placed in the majors immediately I'd need the .dat league files the moment this happens. I think the reason probably is that Baltimore had lots of guys injured, and he was barely good enough for the #5 rotation slot. For the rotation the AI always picks the 5 best pitchers who can start, no matter what their previous league level was or where they came from. So, Baltimore was probably in a terrible situation, and just did what every GM should do: Pick the 5 best guys.

It should take into account the players prior level surely, unless he is like the next best thing.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

It should take into account the players prior level surely, unless he is like the next best thing.

I disagree.

[OldFatGuy]

Oh well, been a coupla days and I've heard nothing suggesting I should keep my opinions to myself, so here goes again.

Originally Posted by bababui

I think people are uber-critical about small parts of the game because the game is close to being what they would consider perfection..except for this one thing...

This is a very good point, because as far as I'm concerned OOTP IS CLOSE TO PERFECTION. I mean, as far as options or features, I love it the way it is. The newer features advertised in OOTP 9 are nice as well, which is why I pre-ordered that. The ONLY thing lacking, IMO, is an AI that is challenging.

Originally Posted by RchW

I'm certainly not defending the AI. I still feel strongly that there is some setting somewhere not right as I have not seen this, ever. Not suggesting it doesn't happen. Just don't have any way to help.

To answer the "why" question. Money, simply money.

Take 10,000 sales at $40 = $400,000
Take 1,000 sales at $150 = $150,000 I think you'd be lucky to get 1000 sales at $150.

At a $150 price point customers would expect graphical motion, the slickest of slick interfaces and even smell-o-vision. It is very likely that the development costs and resources required would result in a price point exceeding $150 by a long shot.

You may well be right that not many would pony up $150 or perhaps more. But, I will say this, I tried new games for years and was unhappy with them and just continued to play my old FPS Baseball (Sierra Sports) for years, until just last year I found out about BM and OOTP, and thought I'd give them a try. Now, just since last year, I've purchased BM 2008 and 2009, OOTP 2007, OOTP 8, and OOTP 9, and if you add all that up, I'm already over $100, and I'd bet there are more than 1,000 people right now with more than $150 already spent and are still looking for that AI challenge.

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

OFG, this is overreaction.

I don't think so 1998 Yanks, as Markus sounded geniunely offended when he spoke of it being more than just a job, it was his passion; even if I didn't intend it to be offensive. And these are, sort of, his boards; i.e. its his game. If I were in someone else's house and offended them, even if unintentionally, I would offer to leave and would gladly do so if asked.

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

I disagree.

I agree with you Markus. The AI should pick the 5 best (or 4 best in case of 4 man rotations) pitchers available, period. The problem is, in Baltimore's case, and in the case of three others in THIS league (I didn't post but two other teams used draft picks as starters the week of the draft), there were better options available. The free agent list was full of starting pitchers and relievers with better than 14 endurance with at least journeymen type ratings (I.E. an average of 9 in all 3 ratings). And the only team in the league bumping up against their budget, according to the financial report, was mine. I mean, I WANT the AI to pick the best 5 available, I WANT the AI to field the best team possible, and in these cases it's obvious to a casual observer that they weren't. Put another way, if you put a 100 humans in control of Baltimore in that case, I'm reasonably sure 100 of them would've come up with a better option than the kid they just drafted the day before.

And, its the same with the pitcher hitting. There are certain circumstances where the strategy settings should influence decisions, but there are some circumstances where the option is SO OBVIOUS, it should be immune from strategy settings. Again, using the 100 manager example, if 100 humans managed a team with two outs in the bottom of the ninth trailing by 3 with one man already on (thus meaning if the this guy reached the tying run would come to the plate), THEN 100 OUT OF 100 OF THOSE HUMAN MANAGERS WOULD'VE PINCH HIT.

Again, I'm not intending this as a personal attack, because I have not found a baseball sim with BETTER AI than OOTP. I am stating that baseball AI, throughout the industry, could use a vast improvement.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Do you still have that league file? If yes, please zip the .dat files and email them to markus@ootpdevelopments.com ... I have never seen something like this, so obviously something is wrong if what you say is indeed correct Thanks!

[Syd Thrift]

In the player editor is the box marked "Has Compromising Pictures Of the GM With A Goat" enabled? Because that could explain a lot.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Do you still have that league file? If yes, please zip the .dat files and email them to markus@ootpdevelopments.com ... I have never seen something like this, so obviously something is wrong if what you say is indeed correct Thanks!

Ok, be glad to. But now I'm into July, if that matters. And FYI, the other two teams starting drafted pitchers the week of the draft are the Dodgers and Red Sox. BUT, I'm sorry but I'm not sure what you mean by the .dat files. Do you want me to zip up the entire .lg directory or just the .dat files I circled below or is there another set of .dat files you are referring to?? Sorry, but I've never sent any in before.