OOTP Online

[Who Killed Kenny?]

Originally Posted by battists

OOTP Online
Possibly the biggest news for today is that we are currently designing a new game, based on OOTP, called "OOTP Online". OOTP Online will be a subscription-based online league version of OOTP, that will be marketed towards fantasy baseball players. OOTP Online would use the OOTP engine for simulating, but would be competely hosted, and would be largely automated. OOTP Online would not replace OOTP 9, nor would it eliminate support for online leagues in OOTP 9. Some of the planned features for OOTP Online include:

• A web-based front end where GMs can submit transaction changes even when away from their PCs
• A "lite" OOTP client that would receive a "changes-only" file from the server each sim, eliminating large file downloads.
• An integrated message board within the lite client, so that GMs can access the league message board from within the game
• An integrated chat program within the lite client, so that GMs can chat with each other
• A points-based subscription system where leagues could win points that could be used to pay for subsequent seasons, etc.
• Support for historical leagues, something that has never really been present in the fantasy baseball world.

There is no release date for OOTP Online as of yet, but it will be after OOTP 9. We're very excited about this, and really feel it can help bring OOTP to a completely new audience.

I know OOTP 9 hasn't been finished yet. I was just curious if this was still in the works. Also, would this be available for solo players so we can play at work?

Thanks!

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by Who Killed Kenny?

.... so we can play at work?

I Shocked, I'm shocked !

[Kelric]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

I Shocked, I'm shocked !

When OOTP5 was released I skipped about two straight days of classes in college. I totally would have been playing it in class if I had had a laptop...

[Who Killed Kenny?]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

I Shocked, I'm shocked !

Um... During my ... um... lunch breaks...

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Who Killed Kenny?

I know OOTP 9 hasn't been finished yet. I was just curious if this was still in the works. Also, would this be available for solo players so we can play at work?

Thanks!

Yes, it is in the works and will ROCK! We have already design documents for the 2nd version, imagine watching your team play with animated graphics while at work

[Mister Bogart]

Actually playing at work is why I am happy sound is coming back in. Then I know when to look over to my laptop when a big play happens.

- Bogie

[fhomess]

Originally Posted by Who Killed Kenny?

subscription-based online league version of OOTP

No thanks.

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Yes, it is in the works and will ROCK! We have already design documents for the 2nd version, imagine watching your team play with animated graphics while at work

Please devote the resources to the core OOTP game instead. There are still many major improvements needed in the game, including a vastly improved drafting AI for historical and fictional leagues, historical transaction models for the early decades of baseball, automatic updates of minor league affiliations and ballparks for historical play, and adding some graphical elements to the game.

I fail to see how OOTP Online will create any of those features or any number of others that people have requested.

PLEASE do not go down the same stupid path as Sports Interactive. They got obsessed with the idea of tapping into new audiences and expanding the product line, and the end result was neglect of the core product.

If you want to bring OOTP to new audiences, I have two words for you: viral marketing.

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by fhomess

No thanks.

''


Waste of development time, IMO only to gain a monthly fee for playing the game.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

''


Waste of development time, IMO only to gain a monthly fee for playing the game.

Wait until you see it in action

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

Please devote the resources to the core OOTP game instead. There are still many major improvements needed in the game, including a vastly improved drafting AI for historical and fictional leagues, historical transaction models for the early decades of baseball, automatic updates of minor league affiliations and ballparks for historical play, and adding some graphical elements to the game.

I fail to see how OOTP Online will create any of those features or any number of others that people have requested.

PLEASE do not go down the same stupid path as Sports Interactive. They got obsessed with the idea of tapping into new audiences and expanding the product line, and the end result was neglect of the core product.

If you want to bring OOTP to new audiences, I have two words for you: viral marketing.

No worries, OOTP online does not take much time away from my schedule, Andreas will code the most stuff needed (server etc) since almost everything we need gaming-wise is already there...

Also, we need new audiences if we want to grow & be able to maintain OOTP the way we do right now. If you have any great marketing ideas, please PM me... everything we have tried in the past did not bring the desired effect.

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Wait until you see it in action

I can't imagine my paying for an online league that can be run for free, but I wish you luck with it if that's the direction you're wanting to steer towards.

Additionally, why would I pay for something that I can do with software that I've already paid to use?

[Corsairs]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

I can't imagine my paying for an online league that can be run for free, but I wish you luck with it if that's the direction you're wanting to steer towards.

Additionally, why would I pay for something that I can do with software that I've already paid to use?

I don't think the intention of this endeavor is to get those of us who run or play in online leagues to pay a monthly fee; rather it's to branch out into an new demographic of customer. As long as Markus assures us that it won't take developmental time away from the core game - and he just did a couple posts up - I'm all for it. Like you, I have no interest in paying a monthly fee for this product. But if it attracts casual fans and brings in revenue that can be turned around and used to improve the core game, that's certainly a project worth pursuing.

[pstrickert]

I thought I'd post an e-mail I just received as a DMB customer. It may or may not have relevance to this discussion. But I'll let you all decide. Here it is, copied-and-pasted:


As promised, the Imagine Sports management team has been reviewing our overall company strategy and product plans in regards to the future of the PC game. We conducted surveys and focus groups with you, members of the PC game community, as well as consulting Diamond Mind staff and, of course, Tom Tippett.

In doing so, it was our hope that we could produce a version 10 of the PC game, and we explored various options for doing so. However, as we look ahead to the future of the games industry, there is no question that online games will be the key to our success and the core focus of our investment plans. Given industry trends and limited resources, therefore, we will not produce a version 10 of the PC game for the foreseeable future, and our marketing efforts will focus exclusively on our online games. We will, however, continue to produce season and projection disks for version 9c and issue appropriate patches or updates so long as it remains financially viable to do so. We also plan to go forward with the CPS upgrades and are ensuring Jim Wheeler has the tools he needs to do this.

There are a number of reasons for these decisions, but it basically comes down to 3 business factors:

1. Industry trends. The greatest growth in the games business is now online, while the market for PC games, on the other hand, has been in decline for some time, particularly in regards to sports. Even Madden Football is not immune - Electronic Arts recently announced that it would discontinue producing a PC version of its most popular sports title.

2. Resources. Tom has informed us that it is unlikely that he will have the time to work on a version 10 for the foreseeable future, and the work required is not something Luke could do alone at this point. On top of those significant limitations, it is simply easier for us to upgrade the online versions, where installation, compatibility, and operating systems are not an issue. Whereas you would need a patch every time there is a new version of Windows or a new operating system like Vista, none of that is an issue in online games, and Mac users do not need a Windows Emulator to play DMB. If you can access the Internet, you're ready to play ball. And on the Internet, development cycles are in weeks, not months or years.

3. Cost. We do not feel a new version can proceed without a new interface, something that neither Tom nor Luke feels capable of doing, nor is anyone else at Imagine able to do so for the PC game. This would require us to outsource this work at high cost.

Unfortunately, it is neither practical nor financially prudent for us to undertake a version 10 at this time or for the foreseeable future. And, given the relative return on investment, we must focus our marketing efforts and budget on the online games.

We understand that this will be disappointing to many of you. However, the Diamond Mind customer base and revenues are simply too small to enable us to do many of the improvements to the game that you would like to see. Only by dramatically growing the customer base will we be able to improve Diamond Mind in the ways you'd like, and the kind of growth we need to sustain and advance the game engine can only be achieved via the Internet.

So, now what?

For the reasons listed above, the future of Diamond Mind is online. We invite you to be a part of that - you can have a say and be involved in that future. However, we do not want you to feel forced to play the online games, so we will continue the disks and such for the existing PC customer base. We hope to make it worthwhile for you to try the online games and intend to add new features that will enable you do pretty much everything in the online game that you can do now in the PC version - and more - but with the extra convenience and flexibility that a server-based system can provide.

For example, we have just completed a new version of "Diamond Mind Live" - a server-based version of Netplay that now includes league play ... with the ability to set your own league schedules. Not only does this avoid the connectivity, IP addressing and firewall issues that can afflict Netplay, DML will enable you to play your Diamond Mind leagues in an orderly yet flexible manner without going through the hassle of having team owners sending line-ups and settings to the commissioner who runs the games for centralized leagues, or emailing results to commissioners and waiting for the latest stats in distributed leagues - that is all automated. Gone will be the fear of cheating, so if a team gets hot during a homestand, you'll know it's legitimate. Also, your opponents will no longer be able to look over your manager profile for an unfair advantage. And, backups are maintained on Imagine Sports servers, so if your hard drive crashes or is wiped out by a virus or you just bought a new system, we've got you covered. You'll always be playing with the most up-to-date ratings and data because we'll be maintaining it for you.

The next stage of development will be to add a solitaire style of play and season replays, with all single seasons available to you without needing to buy season disks. We have yet to determine how we will price these future products, but we intend to offer special pricing and discounts to those of you who own the PC game, with special consideration to the amount you have purchased from Diamond Mind over time.

We are now testing this DML League product, and we invite the PC game community to be a part of that testing and provide us with feedback that will enable us to craft the game to meet your needs and desires. We will also be forming a customer advisory group of DMB-PC customers to help provide us with further input and feedback as we build out the online game. We have already gotten some great ideas from you, and we look forward to more. If you would like to volunteer, email Pat at Info@diamond-mind.com to sign up.

In the meantime, we would like to offer you a free 12-month subscription to Imagine Sports, which includes unlimited live game play. This offer is available only to our current registered DMB PC customers who are not yet subscribers of the Imagine Sports online games and will expire on June 30. Email Support@imaginesports.com to sign up.

We understand that the online games may not be for all of you. Of course, you still have your PC game, and we will continue to offer the season disks and support for version 9 so long as that is financially viable and move forward with upgrades of the Classic Past Seasons. So, for those of you who prefer to play on your PC, you can still do so, and we respect your decision. That said, the door is open, and we hope to welcome you to our online world and look forward having your input into the future of those games.

If you wish to talk about all this, I will hold a chat on the DMB forum on Tuesday, May 27, at 9pm EST/6pm PST. Please join in if you can.
Thank you for your loyalty and commitment to Diamond Mind.

Warm regards,
Dayne Myers
CEO, Imagine Sports

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

1. Industry trends. The greatest growth in the games business is now online, while the market for PC games, on the other hand, has been in decline for some time, particularly in regards to sports. Even Madden Football is not immune - Electronic Arts recently announced that it would discontinue producing a PC version of its most popular sports title.

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but this is EXACTLY why I've been harping on improvements in AI. Whenever I complain about AI in baseball games, I get the same response, "That's what online leagues are for.". And this is, in my opinion, WHY the market is trending that way. In most team sports PC (or console for that matter), the AI is so weak that the most fun and challenge can ONLY be garnered online against another human. And while I'm not discounting that area of marketing, I STILL believe, and will believe until I die, that if someone finally masters baseball AI, in the same way they mastered chess AI (where it could challenge even pros), you would find a resurgance in interest in solo games, because solo games gives you way more flexibility in WHEN you play it and HOW you play it, and IMO, the market would be strong for those reasons.

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by Corsairs

I don't think the intention of this endeavor is to get those of us who run or play in online leagues to pay a monthly fee; rather it's to branch out into an new demographic of customer.

The problem with this is that it involves the assumption that online subscription play will attract a new demographic and create increased revenue. Imagine Sports is following the same approach.

But the real reason that Imagine Sports is doing it is because Strat-O-Matic has online play available through the Sporting News website. This allowed a huge increase in marketing and advertising exposure for SOM, and it almost certainly attracted many people who would have otherwise never heard of the game. So it appears as if sports sim developers are all jumping on the bandwagon in the hopes of producing similar results.

However, what is the plan for Diamond Mind and OOTP? How is the implementation of online subscription play going to result in added customers and revenue? If you don't have a channel for marketing the product like the Sporting News website or something similar, then you will not get anywhere. The mere fact that you offer an online subscription-based simulation does not mean you will get new customers or revenue. What is going to make people aware of this service, and what is going to attract them to it?

That is the real issue here, because anything less than a thorough strategy to make this succeed means that there is a huge risk of failure and therefore a risk of wasting resources that could have otherwise been spent on the core product. New product solutions are not always the key to increased revenue. I think you need to make sure that you've truly executed the best marketing strategies and have invested a suitable amount of resources before you conclude that you can no longer grow your customer base with your existing product.

[cfeedback]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Also, we need new audiences if we want to grow & be able to maintain OOTP the way we do right now. If you have any great marketing ideas, please PM me... everything we have tried in the past did not bring the desired effect.

Well, I play in a Baseball Mogul 2008 league and honestly it seems like no one had ever heard of OOTP when I mentioned it. I know Mogul is a far easier/inferior game but a lot of members of this league are hardcore baseball fanatics and read Baseball Prospectus, Bill James, etc.

I convinced about 5 people in that league to pre-order OOTP9 and join me in creating a historical league. I was just kind of shocked no one was familiar with it though. Something needs to be done to get the word out!

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

No worries, OOTP online does not take much time away from my schedule, Andreas will code the most stuff needed (server etc) since almost everything we need gaming-wise is already there...

So we're delaying TBCB 3 instead?

Also, we need new audiences if we want to grow & be able to maintain OOTP the way we do right now. If you have any great marketing ideas, please PM me... everything we have tried in the past did not bring the desired effect.

I definitely agree with this, although I'd caution a "smaller guy" group like OOTPDev to spend too many resources on advertising, at least via conventional means. Or if you're going to do it, do it whole hog by hiring specific people to do that for you. I'm not sure that anything short of bringing in someone else to help with your marketing is going to have the "desired effect" you mention.

[Faaip De Oiad]

I am in. Online is the way to go. Markus can you expound on the commish options we might have to run a league?

As long as we have everything that is the main game and the game is updated timely.

Can we use customized logos in our online league?

[edm]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

Please devote the resources to the core OOTP game instead. There are still many major improvements needed in the game, including a vastly improved drafting AI for historical and fictional leagues, historical transaction models for the early decades of baseball, automatic updates of minor league affiliations and ballparks for historical play, and adding some graphical elements to the game.

I fail to see how OOTP Online will create any of those features or any number of others that people have requested.

PLEASE do not go down the same stupid path as Sports Interactive. They got obsessed with the idea of tapping into new audiences and expanding the product line, and the end result was neglect of the core product.

If you want to bring OOTP to new audiences, I have two words for you: viral marketing.

I'm torn. On one hand I kind of agree. On the other hand I think something like this sounds really cool and could be a lot of fun if done correctly. I would just have to take Markus word that OOTP will still be the main priority.

As for a fee, I don't mind paying (to a point). It does after all take bandwidth, server space, and time to put something like this together. So I wouldn't expect it to be free.