Are there any "pay" online leagues?

[peanburn]

A problem with a lot of leagues is finding committed GMs who know what they are doing. Too many times, it seems to be a game of "who can con the bad GMs" instead of good baseball minds who work hard on their teams. My question is: "Are there any pay leagues?"
I, for one, would be willing to pay to join a league with committed baseball minds for some real good competition.
Is it not allowed or just not done or are there a few?

[SandMan]

Originally Posted by peanburn

A problem with a lot of leagues is finding committed GMs who know what they are doing. Too many times, it seems to be a game of "who can con the bad GMs" instead of good baseball minds who work hard on their teams. My question is: "Are there any pay leagues?"
I, for one, would be willing to pay to join a league with committed baseball minds for some real good competition.
Is it not allowed or just not done or are there a few?

You are one of a very few that would do this. I suggested to Marc Duffy that OOTP offer pay leagues like the ones DMB has now. This will keep the league with dedicated owners like you state. I started playing STATS and then ESPN Diamond Legends years ago when they were expensive and those are still to me the best leagues that I have been in. It would not be ethical or legal to start a pay league using a game engine other than one you create without prior approval or a contract with the game maker. I doubt that SEGA/SI/OOTP would allow such transactions - or maybe they would if the cut and guarantee was high enough.

[BruceM]

Why would it not be ethical or legal?

There have been one or two pay leagues in tha past, however I don't know if they still exist.

[SandMan]

Originally Posted by BruceM

Why would it not be ethical or legal?

There have been one or two pay leagues in tha past, however I don't know if they still exist.

If you read the license agreement you will see that you can't have business transactions with the software. It is for personal use. The licensing fee for the game engine would probably be astronomical if it were used for business use. Almost every software license states this. For personal use on one pc at a time. Not many will allow you to install on a server for multiple users and allow you to profit from such. This is not the same thing as having everyone own the game and splitting the cost to have their league on a website, because then the game players are not paying to play, they are paying to have a service - the website.

My idea was to have, with SI/SEGA agreement, a pay-site which requires the game players to own or to purchase the game and I would simply sell franchises to play the game with some of the proceeds returning to SI/SEGA after expenses of the site. I would like the opportunity myself to go into a web gaming site full time but only if I were to get the go ahead from a game company to use their game engine in return for a portion of the profits plus publicity for the game.

Some would wonder why people would pay when there are free leagues out there. The answer is that subconsciously people feel that there is added value when you have to pay for the item rather than getting it free, that there is a difference even if it is not a huge difference in the product or service offered.

[peanburn]

Originally Posted by SandMan

My idea was to have, with SI/SEGA agreement, a pay-site which requires the game players to own or to purchase the game and I would simply sell franchises to play the game with some of the proceeds returning to SI/SEGA after expenses of the site. I would like the opportunity myself to go into a web gaming site full time but only if I were to get the go ahead from a game company to use their game engine in return for a portion of the profits plus publicity for the game.

Some would wonder why people would pay when there are free leagues out there. The answer is that subconsciously people feel that there is added value when you have to pay for the item rather than getting it free, that there is a difference even if it is not a huge difference in the product or service offered.

Well, the reason people would pay for a league would be the commitment and competiton that pay leagues could offer. Most Free leagues lack these important characteristics as a few teams usually dominate after taking advantage of poor-playing GMs. They stock up on talant leaving many teams decimated. The decimated team's GM quit and those teams are hard fill.

[eMLBCommish]

Originally Posted by SandMan

If you read the license agreement you will see that you can't have business transactions with the software. It is for personal use. The licensing fee for the game engine would probably be astronomical if it were used for business use. Almost every software license states this. For personal use on one pc at a time. Not many will allow you to install on a server for multiple users and allow you to profit from such. This is not the same thing as having everyone own the game and splitting the cost to have their league on a website, because then the game players are not paying to play, they are paying to have a service - the website.

My idea was to have, with SI/SEGA agreement, a pay-site which requires the game players to own or to purchase the game and I would simply sell franchises to play the game with some of the proceeds returning to SI/SEGA after expenses of the site. I would like the opportunity myself to go into a web gaming site full time but only if I were to get the go ahead from a game company to use their game engine in return for a portion of the profits plus publicity for the game.

Some would wonder why people would pay when there are free leagues out there. The answer is that subconsciously people feel that there is added value when you have to pay for the item rather than getting it free, that there is a difference even if it is not a huge difference in the product or service offered.

I see I'm not alone knocking on Markus' and Marc's door. I have in the past 6 months submitted a formalized proposal of a business model. Markus responded with some interest, but never heard back from Marc/Legal on my "Rent-A-Commish" proposal.

On a side note, peanburn, I believe you wrote to me not very long ago about joining my league. The link is in the sig. You are welcome to re-inquire, as I am in the process of converting to OOTP 2007, and expecting some people not to return (2 so far said no). My league has been in existence since July of 2000. It has its share of "decimated teams", but has very capable and mature ownership. Two of the available teams coming are regular playoff contenders, and a third team I have no ownership has what could be the NL Cy Young.

Back on point, because of doing the right thing, but never hearing back from either of the two figureheads, I never got an opportunity to get an indication of interest from the community on how many people would pay for a Commish to run a league, not run a team, and handle all the operations of the league/website.

I was going to attempt to project an assumption of fees returned to SI/Sega on this idea. If people wish to chime in if they'd pay for such service, knowing SI could potentially receive additional revenue via a third party, go right ahead.

[kckid4u]

I'd like to play in a league where each owner pays between, say, $10 -$20 each year and the Series winner gets like 70% of the total with the series loser getting the other 30%.

This would give people something to play for and increase owner activity.

Hell, I'd pay.

[DougWyatt]

Originally Posted by kckid4u

I'd like to play in a league where each owner pays between, say, $10 -$20 each year and the Series winner gets like 70% of the total with the series loser getting the other 30%.

This would give people something to play for and increase owner activity.

Hell, I'd pay.

In theory.

Would you kick people out if the money wasn't there at season start ? If not, what about the goofballs that don't pay & the winners get shorted, etc. etc. I think that'd open up a big can of worms.

However. If it was to happen, I like worms.

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by SandMan

If you read the license agreement you will see that you can't have business transactions with the software. It is for personal use. The licensing fee for the game engine would probably be astronomical if it were used for business use. Almost every software license states this. For personal use on one pc at a time. Not many will allow you to install on a server for multiple users and allow you to profit from such. This is not the same thing as having everyone own the game and splitting the cost to have their league on a website, because then the game players are not paying to play, they are paying to have a service - the website.

Which is what I assumed he meant, and what other "Pay" leagues did. It wouldn't be illegal to have a pay league when everyone has their own copy of the game. In essence, you'd be paying to join the league, not for use of the software off a server and not necessarily for the web site.

I agree with your assessment in that regard.

[kckid4u]

Originally Posted by DougWyatt

In theory.

Would you kick people out if the money wasn't there at season start ? If not, what about the goofballs that don't pay & the winners get shorted, etc. etc. I think that'd open up a big can of worms.

However. If it was to happen, I like worms.

Well, the ones who don't pay don't get any money if they win the series or are runner up. You're right though, it would mean less money for the ones who do pay. I guess if the two winners didn't pay, the money would carry over to the next year making it a even bigger pot.

[eMLBCommish]

Originally Posted by kckid4u

I'd like to play in a league where each owner pays between, say, $10 -$20 each year and the Series winner gets like 70% of the total with the series loser getting the other 30%.

This would give people something to play for and increase owner activity.

Hell, I'd pay.

Interesting...but let me ask you this:

Would the Commissioner be allowed to own a team in this league? Wouldn't that then create conflict of interest issues...or violate the integrity of the league?

I have to believe an efficient business model for pay leagues is to avoid any possible integrity issues. It's best to have a third party be the Commissioner.

On that note, this individual isn't going to do this out of the goodness of his/her heart. There are costs to running a league...even free leagues! I pay at least $200/yr just for administration, and that doesn't account for the most important commodity I provide a league: My time.

So...how can you justify an efficient and well run league if you have 70% of all funds go to the Winner, and 30% to the Loser? Does it have to be monetary value? What about t-shirts, trophies, or mugs with the leagues' logo, etc? BTW, those have costs, too.

Like I wrote above: I'm all for supporting, and would pay, for a model like this. But it has to be well thought out. As I indicated, I did a very thorough research effort into such a model that, assuming a fee to the company for using their product, would result in a very modest revenue to the prospective Commissioner. And that model has (outside of one quick "Tell me more" e-mail from Markus) fallen on deaf ears. Not even a Legal Disclosure/response!

[eMLBCommish]

Originally Posted by DougWyatt

In theory.

Would you kick people out if the money wasn't there at season start ? If not, what about the goofballs that don't pay & the winners get shorted, etc. etc. I think that'd open up a big can of worms.

However. If it was to happen, I like worms.

My theory: You pay in advance before you even get access to a password sensitive league file.

One thing I didn't mention: Think about all the logistics you have to cover for a league where there's payment made (If people bitch over paying $35 for certain features, you better believe they'll feel justified to bitch on $10 invested in a league!). Examples to consider:

- How many teams?
- Salary cap (for fairness)?
- Max No. of Trades?
- Do you permit inactivity terminations?
- What roster set will be used? Which adds the issue that if you use a mod-created roster set, should that individual receive a fee for providing this?

That's just a few that come to my business mind.

[pallen]

Originally Posted by eMLBCommish

My theory: You pay in advance before you even get access to a password sensitive league file.

Absolutely. Collect your cash up-front, or you'll find that owners that will only pay in if they're doing well.

Originally Posted by eMLBCommish

One thing I didn't mention: Think about all the logistics you have to cover for a league where there's payment made (If people bitch over paying $35 for certain features, you better believe they'll feel justified to bitch on $10 invested in a league!). Examples to consider:

- How many teams?
- Salary cap (for fairness)?
- Max No. of Trades?
- Do you permit inactivity terminations?
- What roster set will be used? Which adds the issue that if you use a mod-created roster set, should that individual receive a fee for providing this?

That's just a few that come to my business mind.

I can think of a few others that I'd care about:

- What are all of the financial settings? Will some teams have a financial advantage over others? Will teams be able to build a financial advantage over time (through cash carried over, increased fan loyalty or market size, etc.)?
- How do you plan to prevent collusion?
- How will rules questions be resolved?
- How many seasons is the league planned to run?
- If the league is planned to run for many seasons, what incentives do you plan to offer to owners who pick up abandoned, poorly-run teams. (Or will you just let the AI run them if you can't find owners to pay money to run these teams?)

[eMLBCommish]

I'll answer some of Pallen's comments.

Originally Posted by pallen

- What are all of the financial settings? Will some teams have a financial advantage over others? Will teams be able to build a financial advantage over time (through cash carried over, increased fan loyalty or market size, etc.)?
- Is the commissioner independent, or is he running a team too?
- How do you plan to prevent collusion?
- How will rules questions be resolved?
- How many seasons is the league planned to run?
- If the league is planned to run for many seasons, what incentives do you plan to offer to owners who pick up abandoned, poorly-run teams. (Or will you just let the AI run them if you can't find owners to pay money to run these teams?)

- In my mind, a Commissioner should not be involved directly in a product he is being paid for. Therefore, he would have to be a third party, but would also have to receive compensation for the efforts, as well as covering site costs.

- Collusion could be a noteworthy issue to watch. I believe a league needs to have a Board that reviews trades to determine whether or not it is a fair deal, and if such a trade would be allowed. You also have to consider if draft picks are permitted to be traded.

- Same for rules question: Have a rules board.

- I would assume a league would remain open-ended for # of seasons, until such a time as the demand for the service is no longer desired, and the league folds. In a system like online leagues, where game engines do become obsolete, you also have to determine the risks of upgrading to new game engines, or run the risk of staying with an older engine, therefore losing the potential base of customers for not using the latest and greatest.

[Gator]

Originally Posted by peanburn

Well, the reason people would pay for a league would be the commitment and competiton that pay leagues could offer. Most Free leagues lack these important characteristics as a few teams usually dominate after taking advantage of poor-playing GMs. They stock up on talant leaving many teams decimated. The decimated team's GM quit and those teams are hard fill.

I don't think the loss of an entry fee of say $10-20 would prevent poor GM's from quitting, anymore than the price of a ticket would prevent me from walking out of a bad movie. In my experience, the problem you reference above is a common one, but can be better overcome by a set of rules (salary cap, no trading draft picks, limited financial inequities) which don't allow teams to become too dominate or too decimated. However, many league commissioners who also own teams want some kind of payback for all the hard work they do and as commissioners tend to be a very honest bunch, that tends to be in the form of a rules package which allows teams to dominate or be decimated. These commissioners often have two or three very close friends who are GM's who also have strong teams in the league so nobody feels like there's anything wrong with abusing the guys who rotate in and out of these leagues. If you want to join a strong, fair league, look for one with a good rules package which promotes equity and where the Comish has a losing team.

[eMLBCommish]

Originally Posted by Gator

I don't think the loss of an entry fee of say $10-20 would prevent poor GM's from quitting, anymore than the price of a ticket would prevent me from walking out of a bad movie. In my experience, the problem you reference above is a common one, but can be better overcome by a set of rules (salary cap, no trading draft picks, limited financial inequities) which don't allow teams to become too dominate or too decimated. However, many league commissioners who also own teams want some kind of payback for all the hard work they do and as commissioners tend to be a very honest bunch, that tends to be in the form of a rules package which allows teams to dominate or be decimated. These commissioners often have two or three very close friends who are GM's who also have strong teams in the league so nobody feels like there's anything wrong with abusing the guys who rotate in and out of these leagues. If you want to join a strong, fair league, look for one with a good rules package which promotes equity and where the Comish has a losing team.

I don't know how else to say this...

What a complete waste of crap that was. I'm rather insulted by it.

You're trying to tell me just because my team has a career 1264-1004 record in 14 regular seasons (.557 Pct), and a 20-19 lifetime playoff record (.513), winning the World Series once back in 2005, that my league isn't STRONG AND FAIR!?!?

And for the record, I do have close RL friends in the league: One has managed Texas since Day 1 (1018-1250 career...or a .449 Win Pct), and the two others have joined in the past 3 seasons, only one having one season with a .500+ Record.

But because I've had a +.500 record, and my friends are not given any roles of authority in the league to avoid a conflict of interest....my league is still unfair and a piece of crap.

I want a refund. I could've spent the time reading that post doing something more productive...like cleaning my tub with a lint brush.

[PerfectMisnomer]

Originally Posted by Gator

I don't think the loss of an entry fee of say $10-20 would prevent poor GM's from quitting, anymore than the price of a ticket would prevent me from walking out of a bad movie. In my experience, the problem you reference above is a common one, but can be better overcome by a set of rules (salary cap, no trading draft picks, limited financial inequities) which don't allow teams to become too dominate or too decimated. However, many league commissioners who also own teams want some kind of payback for all the hard work they do and as commissioners tend to be a very honest bunch, that tends to be in the form of a rules package which allows teams to dominate or be decimated. These commissioners often have two or three very close friends who are GM's who also have strong teams in the league so nobody feels like there's anything wrong with abusing the guys who rotate in and out of these leagues. If you want to join a strong, fair league, look for one with a good rules package which promotes equity and where the Comish has a losing team.

LOL!

[peanburn]

Back on point...

There is a difference between "pay to play" and "pay to win" leagues. Anytime a financial prize is offered it complicates things. I think that this can be overcome with rules as stated in the above posts. However, I would be willing just to pay to play in a competitive league with other baseball minds. Paying a fee upfront would discourage some GMs (not all as the movie reference applies), but the rules package of can correct this to an extent.
Having leaguewide votes if a trade is questioned, just like they have in fantasy football seems to work well, as the judgment of a small group of commishes can be biased. I am surprised leagues don't have this.
The online experience fell far short of my expectations, as it is harder to trick the AI than real people (which is not a statement of how far AI has come...)
I do think there is a market for real good competition given this game's abilities, but the current online experience does not offer this.

[CatKnight]

Just a random thought.

The alleged problem is bad GMs who don't know what they're doing, mess up their team and so quit leaving the 'good' GMs in a lurch while those who took advantage of the bad GM get ahead.

First....a monetary prize is not going to solve that. It is going to make it worse. Now the 'evil' GMs have incentive to take advantage of the newbies.

Second, charging a fee isn't going to make the bad GMs better. It MIGHT scare them off trying....which is bad for the game as a whole.

What I'd suggest is two fold:

First, in online sim leagues I've seen rules are the most important tool I've seen to ensure fair play. Use a salary cap. Maybe share revenue. Don't allow draft trades, and maybe the commissioner should be able to veto trades "not in the best interest of the league" if he's not playing. (If he is then a three-man council, like the early days of MLB, might be a useful idea.)

Second, the only way these bad GMs are going to get competent is if you let them play....and maybe let them fall on their face once or twice. Real life GMs get suckered too. Teams can recover from even catastrophic trades, and the 'evil' GMs will eventually develop a reputation for untrustworthiness. Especially if the league has an active forum.

As for the 'bad' GMs....train them. Part of a responsible commissioner's job is to maintain the health of the league, and sometimes that may mean mailing them and saying "Uhm...are you sure you want to do that?" If there's a small body of trusted, experienced GMs maybe one who's not a competitor (different league, whatever) gets assigned as a coach to answer questions and offer advice.

Paying for a league is valid for dealing with administrative expenses and time spent keeping the league functional. I have no problem with that. As a tool to encourage fair gaming it will backfire however, and as a tool to encourage the 'right' kind of GM...sends the wrong message to new players.

[peanburn]

Your points are valid about cash prizes. I am just looking for good competition in an online league. I think that rules are the way to go but many leagues just let anything go as far as trades.
I agree that people need to start somewhere and there are plenty of free leagues for that. I would just like to see the level of competition and baseball mindedness brought up to a higher level, so the league is more representative of what a real GM deals with.
Right now they seem to be to con the poor GMs out of all their good players and that loses enjoyment pretty quick for me.
Pay leagues would keep out some poor GMs, but the rules package seems to be the key.
Also I think the fewer the better. Finding 30 committed GMs is a formidable, if not impossible task.