[thehef]

bump

[thehef]

Bumping again... I'm curious about this pitcher endurance/number-of-pitchers-on-the-staff stuff...

Garlon wrote:

"... the Use Relievers and Use Closers settings are also tied to how many total pichers the AI will carry on the staff. I suggest setting both of these to Very Often."

SteveP wrote:

"There's a problem with setting pitcher endurance down to Very Low (or even to Low, depending upon the era involved). This is because it messes with roster configurations. If set to Normal, the AI will carry 10 pitchers on the roster, at Low it will carry 11, at Very Low it will carry 12."

So is it Pitcher Endurance, or is it the Use Relievers and Use Closers settings that affect how many pitchers are carried on the roster? Or all of the above?

Is there a conflict with having the goals of realistic bullpen usage and having no more than 10 or 11 pitchers on a staff? In other words, do the settings required to get realistic bullpen usage mean that rosters will generally carry 12 pitchers?

Garlon wrote:

"Thebiggest problem with RPs is that some SP's will of course end up in the bullpen on some teams because A. a team already has better SPs to fill the rotation and B. the extra SPs are better than the other RPs that a team has available on the roster. Now the real issue is that these SPs who are in the bullpen carry their high endurance ratings with them when they relieve. So if you don't have your strategy settings for Pitcher Endurance set to Very Low and Pinch Hit for Pitchers set to Very Often, some of these guys are going to rack up more IP out of the bullpen then some of your SPs will out of the rotation."

Is this an issue across eras, or is it something that is more pronounced during certain periods?

[Garlon]

We'll try to work out the best settings for realism in beta testing this year.

[thehef]

Garlon (or anyone else): Am I correct in my assumption (based upon the posts above) that there is a conflict with the goals of 1) realistic bullpen usage and, 2) having no more than 10 or 11 pitchers on a staff? IOW, the settings required to get realistic bullpen usage mean that rosters will generally carry 12 pitchers?

Also, just re-asking a couple of unanswered questions:

1. Is it Pitcher Endurance, or is it the Use Relievers and Use Closers settings that affect how many pitchers are carried on the roster? Or all of the above?

2. Re this, written by Garlon:

"Thebiggest problem with RPs is that some SP's will of course end up in the bullpen on some teams because A. a team already has better SPs to fill the rotation and B. the extra SPs are better than the other RPs that a team has available on the roster. Now the real issue is that these SPs who are in the bullpen carry their high endurance ratings with them when they relieve. So if you don't have your strategy settings for Pitcher Endurance set to Very Low and Pinch Hit for Pitchers set to Very Often, some of these guys are going to rack up more IP out of the bullpen then some of your SPs will out of the rotation."

Is this an issue across eras, or is it something that is more pronounced during certain periods?

Thanks in advance.

[Spritze]

1. The handy "Use relievers" setting is by far the great determinator as to the number of pitchers on a roster.

2. The issue carries across historical eras.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Spritze

1. The handy "Use relievers" setting is by far the great determinator as to the number of pitchers on a roster.

Garlon implied that using that setting leads to unrealistic use of relievers (In terms of IP), is that something that could be looked at in beta for OOTP10

[Tony M]

Originally Posted by thehef

Garlon (or anyone else): Am I correct in my assumption (based upon the posts above) that there is a conflict with the goals of 1) realistic bullpen usage and, 2) having no more than 10 or 11 pitchers on a staff? IOW, the settings required to get realistic bullpen usage mean that rosters will generally carry 12 pitchers?

Also, just re-asking a couple of unanswered questions:

1. Is it Pitcher Endurance, or is it the Use Relievers and Use Closers settings that affect how many pitchers are carried on the roster? Or all of the above?

2. Re this, written by Garlon:

Is this an issue across eras, or is it something that is more pronounced during certain periods?

Thanks in advance.

Originally Posted by Spritze

1. The handy "Use relievers" setting is by far the great determinator as to the number of pitchers on a roster.

2. The issue carries across historical eras.

This is one of the many things about the database that really bugs the hell out of me. There are a couple of fields stored against each league which appear to be average number of pitchers and hitters (standard values of 12 and 13), but they can't be altered, and even if you do edit them, the game doesn't take much notice of it.

[thehef]

If you go back and read the last post on page two of this thread, and the posts on this page, it is clearly unclear exactly which settings affect the number of pitchers - 10, 11, 12, maybe even 9? - the AI will put on a staff... At least it is not clear in this thread.

Perhaps the answer isn't really known. Can anybody clear this up?

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by thehef

If you go back and read the last post on page two of this thread, and the posts on this page…

Can anybody clear this up?

I can't clear it up, but maybe you can clear something up for me.

On my computer, everything in this thread is on one page, though we're nearing the bottom of it now (50 posts per page). Could you please list relevant posts by number in the future, rather than by page? Apparently not everyone has the same page count.

[thehef]

Curtis wrote:

Apparently not everyone has the same page count.

Didn't realize that. Thanks for pointing it out...

I'm referring to post 40 and above...

[Curtis]

Thank you.

[thehef]

Bumping... and clarifying... and a question...

If you go back and read this thread from post 40 on, it has not been made clear exactly which settings affect the number of pitchers - 10, 11, 12, maybe even 9? - the AI will put on a staff...

Garlon: "... the Use Relievers and Use Closers settings are also tied to how many total pichers the AI will carry on the staff."

SteveP: "There's a problem with setting pitcher endurance down to Very Low (or even to Low, depending upon the era involved). This is because it messes with roster configurations. If set to Normal, the AI will carry 10 pitchers on the roster, at Low it will carry 11, at Very Low it will carry 12."

Spritze: "The handy "Use relievers" setting is by far the great determinator as to the number of pitchers on a roster."

Perhaps the answer isn't really known. Can anybody clear this up?

And if one's goal is to have less-than-12-man pitching staffs, somewhat realistic bullpen usage, and complete game numbers that aren't way too low, what would be the recommended settings? I realize this is something that will be looked at in v10 beta testing, but what would be the best "tradeoff" settings for v9?

[Spritze]

Please notice that the esteemed Mr. Garlon and my own selves are referencing the same settings in game setup.

You can simply test these scenarios for yourself. Go to the game setup screen, change the use relievers setting, then choose "run computer manager on all teams" from the menu, then go look and see how many pitchers are on the staffs.

You will note that each change in use relievers will result in a change of the number of pitchers on a staff.

Use closers just changes how often a closer gets used, it does not affect the saff numbers.

[Cryomaniac]

Just from what I've read (I haven't studied it a great deal,if at all) in the 19th century teams should have one starter, one spot starter and maybe 1 or 2 relievers (one of whom is probably an OF who can pitch). OOTP clearly doesn't work like that.

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Just from what I've read (I haven't studied it a great deal,if at all) in the 19th century teams should have one starter, one spot starter and maybe 1 or 2 relievers (one of whom is probably an OF who can pitch).

LGO will probably be by shortly to straighten us out on this, but as a very rough rule of thumb, that's true for the 1870s. By the time the American Association is formed you should probably add a starter, and by the time it folds one more.

A really great book on this topic is "The Great Encyclopedia of 19th Century Major League Baseball" by David Nemec. It has more facts, figures and statistics than articles. I'll just list the number of starters for teams in 1882 and 1892, Both are in order of team's finish.
1882 (you may feel this supports your position):
Chicago (2) 45 and 39 {3 total pitchers/1 relief appearance/1 reliever}
Providence (2) 52 and 32 starts {2 pitchers/6/2 relievers}
Boston (3) 48, 32 and 5 {4 pitchers/4/3 relievers}
Buffalo (4) 51, 29, 3 and 1 {5 pitchers/5/3 relievers}
Cleveland (3) 67, 16 and 1 (67 led the NL) {3 pitchers/3/2 relievers}
Detroit (3) 45, 39 and 2 {4 pitchrs/4/4 relievers}
Troy (3) 42, 33 and 10 {4 pitchers/4/3 relieves}
Worcester (6) 46, 18, 14, 3, 2 and 1 {6 pitchers/9?[there's a typo, so I'm extrapolating]/2? relievers}
National League Total (26 for 8 teams) {31 pitchers/36?/20? relievers} 15 both started and relieved, 5 relieved only, 11 started only

Cincinnati (3) 54, 25 and 1 {3 pitchers/3/1 reliever}
Philadelphia (7) 41, 20, 8, 2, 2, 1 and 1 {8 pitchers/3/2 relievers}
Louisville (5) 55, 11, 10, 2 and 1 (55 led the AA) {6 pitchers/7/4 relievers}
Pittsburgh (6) 38, 23, 14, 2, 1 and 1 {7 pitchers/2/2 relievers}
St. Louis (9) 45, 14, 8, 4, 3, 2, 1, 1 and 1 {10 pitchers/5/4 relievers}
Baltimore (7) 39, 13, 13, 3, 3, 2 and 1 {8 pitchers/12/4 relievers}
American Association Total (37 for 6 teams) {42 pitchers/32/17 relievers} 12 both started and relieved, 5 relieved only, 25 started only
1892:
Boston (6) 51, 48, 35, 16, 1 and 1 {7 pitchers/11/4 relievers}
Cleveland (7) 49, 42, 28, 26, 5, 1 and 1 {7 pitchers/12/5 relievers}
Brooklyn (6) 44, 42, 23, 21, 20 and 8 {6 pitchers/28/6 relievers}
Philadelphia (7) 49, 38, 36, 18, 9, 3 and 2 {7 pitchers/24/6 relievers}
Cincinnati (12) 49, 34, 27, 16, 10, 7, 3, 3, 3, 1, 1 and 1 {15 pitchers/29/10 relievers}
Pittsburgh (10) 53, 36, 26, 13, 12, 4, 3, 3, 1 and 1 {11 pitchers/28/9 relievers}
Chicago (6) 71, 45, 26, 2, 1 and 1 {7 pitchers/13/5 relievers}
New York (4) 62, 47, 43 and 1 {5 pitchers/12/4 relievers}
Louisville (9) 40, 31, 24, 18, 16, 15, 4, 4 and 2 {10 pitchers/7/5 relievers}
Washington (11) 52, 23, 21, 15, 14, 7, 7, 4, 4, 3 and 3 {11 pitchers/27?[extrapolation]/8 relievers}
St. Louis (9) 45, 32, 20, 13, 12, 11, 10, 10 and 2 {10 pitchers/22/6 relievers}
Baltimore (13) 47, 46, 21, 13, 8, 6, 3, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1 and 1 {14 pitchers/23/10 relievers}
League Association Total (100 for 12 teams) {110 pitchers/236/78 relievers} 68 both started and relieved, 10 relieved only, 32 started only

Based on that very small sample, it looks to me like the American Association led the way to larger staffs. Also note that in 1892 the teams are playing close to 150 games, whilst in 1882 the NL clubs were scheduled for 84 games, and the AA clubs played 73-80. As the seasons lengthened, the number of pitchers needed did as well. Someone with more mathematical savvy than I have could determine which percentage of games were started by the number one starter, number two, etc.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Curtis

LGO will probably be by shortly to straighten us out on this, but as a very rough rule of thumb, that's true for the 1870s. By the time the American Association is formed you should probably add a starter, and by the time it folds one more.

A really great book on this topic is "The Great Encyclopedia of 19th Century Major League Baseball" by David Nemec. It has more facts, figures and statistics than articles. I'll just list the number of starters for teams in 1882 and 1892, Both are in order of team's finish.
1882 (you may feel this supports your position):
Chicago (2) 45 and 39
Providence (2) 52 and 32 starts
Boston (3) 48, 32 and 5
Buffalo (4) 51, 29, 3 and 1
Cleveland (3) 67, 16 and 1 (67 led the NL)
Detroit (3) 45, 39 and 2
Troy (3) 42, 33 and 10
Worcester (6) 46, 18, 14, 3, 2 and 1 (26 for 8 teams)

Cincinnati (3) 54, 25 and 1
Philadelphia (7) 41, 20, 8, 2, 2, 1 and 1
Louisville (5) 55, 11, 10, 2 and 1 (55 led the AA)
Pittsburgh (6) 38, 23, 14, 2, 1 and 1
St. Louis (9) 45, 14, 8, 4, 3, 2, 1, 1 and 1
Baltimore (7) 39, 13, 13, 3, 3, 2 and 1 (37 for 6 teams)
1892:
Boston (6) 51, 48, 35, 16, 1 and 1
Cleveland (7) 49, 42, 28, 26, 5, 1 and 1
Brooklyn (6) 44, 42, 23, 21, 20 and 8
Philadelphia (7) 49, 38, 36, 18, 9, 3 and 2
Cincinnati (12) 49, 34, 27, 16, 10, 7, 3, 3, 3, 1, 1 and 1
Pittsburgh (10) 53, 36, 26, 13, 12, 4, 3, 3, 1 and 1
Chicago (6) 71, 45, 26, 2, 1 and 1 (71 led the league)
New York (4) 62, 47, 43 and 1
Louisville (9) 40, 31, 24, 18, 16, 15, 4, 4 and 2
Washington (11) 52, 23, 21, 15, 14, 7, 7, 4, 4, 3 and 3
St. Louis (9) 45, 32, 20, 13, 12, 11, 10, 10 and 2
Baltimore (13) 47, 46, 21, 13, 8, 6, 3, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1 and 1 (100 for 12 teams)

Based on that very small sample, it looks to me like the American Association led the way to larger staffs. Also note that in 1892 the teams are playing close to 150 games, whilst in 1882 the NL clubs were scheduled for 84 games, and the AA clubs played 73-80. As the seasons lengthened, the number of pitchers needed did as well. Someone with more mathematical savvy than I have could determine which percentage of games started by by the number one starter, number two, etc.

Interesting numbers, and yes, I'm sure LGO will have something to say about them. I'm not sure the number of starters is the problem here though, it's more the number of relievers. Again, I could be wrong here, but most of the teams you mention probably only had 1 or 2 actual relief pitchers (sometimes another starter would finish a non-shutout blowout for example). What OOTP should model is teams going from 1 SP + 3RP in 1870 to 5/6 SP + 7/8 RP in 2008, that really doesn't happen, because even if you set up 15 man rosters and 1 man rotations you get 6 pitchers and 9 hitters, usually one of each position plus a backup C.

[Curtis]

Especially in 1882, there were almost no incomplete games. I'll go back and add two columns to the above list: Total number of relief appearances for each team and total number of pitchers that season (many of whom fall into your outfielder category).

Edit: One thing I noticed while going through this the second time was that there were MANY more starts than the teams' records could account for. Apparently there were many more tied games back then than I had thought.