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Old 12-28-2014, 04:22 PM   #1
darkcloud4579
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300 Years and Counting...a retrospective dynasty

So I've had this league for going on 307 seasons, I forked the league onto my laptop and was able to get to 300 years plus by doing a lot of simming and keeping tabs.

Obviously tons of guys have gone through the league over these years, but I've never done a full accounting of the history of the league. I know some of the main stars, but what about the guys who I don't remember or haven't seen? I'd really like to go through the Hall of Fame, as well as looking at players who maybe missed the Hall and talk about their careers briefly, look at the record breakers, the guys who didn't make it but had amazing seasons and so forth.

Would love to just reflect on the history of the league -- and maybe -- the franchises that compose the league, too.

The hope is that you'll learn more about the league, too and it'll connect you to this vibrant real-life world that I've built over about seven calendar years and counting.
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Old 12-28-2014, 04:30 PM   #2
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MLB Hall of Fame day made me want to get in here and really investigate the HOF of my league.

In this, the 310th season of my leagues we now have 4 major league associations:

Quote:
ABA - American Baseball Association (1800-present)
UPB - Union of professional baseball (2074-present)
NABL - North American Baseball League (2102-present, was a minor league from 2100-2101)
WL - Western League (2109-present, 2097-2108 as a minor league)
All of them have major league status now even though the level of quality is basically in the order listed above ABA, UPB, NABL and then WL is the lowest level and the salary setups are basically patterned similarly.

What we'll do here is reflect on the HOF, though players ultimately are elected to the centralized Hall of Fame and each league will have their own "wing" of sorts.

We're going to use the Bill Simmons model as our guide.

Our Hall of Fame will be located in Cincinnati where we have no team currently.



We will post the inductees to the Hall of Fame in Tiers, though I can't always be faithful to that. How about instead, we'll just post guys and then post their tier. It can be a debate too, I'd especially enjoy that as we get into it -- or induct new guys -- if you'd chime in based on what you're seeing.

Tier 1: "Borderline" Hall of Famers
Tier 2: Legit Hall of Famers.

Quote:
Their team never won a World Series.
Something was missing from their career totals.
They never enjoyed an outrageously good single season.
Somebody else played their position during their time who was better.
Their career was shortened by injury and/or rapidly declining skills.
Tier 3: Lock Hall of Famers

Quote:
Do you have to consider them in any "best of all-time" discussions?
Did they have transcendent games or memorable moments?
Did they hit 500 homers, get 3,000 hits or win 300 games?
Were they just dominant at times?
Will you always remember watching them play, even when you're 80 years old and peeing on yourself?
Tier 4: Greatest Hall of Famers

Basically players who best in the world and who stay in our memories long after they've left.

Tier 5: GOAT
Greatest of all time. Period. Never more than 10% of the years of the league. So if we've got 310 years, there can never be more than 31 GOAT HOFers.

I think we can reevaluate later whether guys can shift tiers, based on new information.

I've actually begun -- in this season -- with suspensions for drugs (only drugs), because I'd be really curious if I'll evaluate those guys differently when their careers are done. I used to not want them because it was too much like real life, but now I'm super curious to see what that'll look like if someone we love or a player i really respect ends up getting suspended for PEDs and whether or not we'll view his career differently when it's over.

My goal with this is to really pour over the history some. I sim so fast sometimes that it's hard to remember who was good and this is an exercise for me to really be able to look back, but also to see who has been here. That way if we go another 100 years, I have something to compare all of this to.

So let's start.

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Old 12-29-2014, 12:03 AM   #3
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MASTER LIST OF HALL OF FAME


HONORABLE MENTION



TIER 1


TIER 2


TIER 3


TIER 4
OF Parker Ashley (2062-86)


TIER 5
OF Joe Peters (2042-74)

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Old 12-29-2014, 12:23 AM   #4
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Old 12-29-2014, 01:55 AM   #5
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Old 12-29-2014, 01:40 PM   #6
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The Willie Mays Hall of Fame | Joe Blogs

I like this idea. After 300 years + of talent, you get a glut of talent and I just want to be able to sift through the all-time greats and come up with all-century teams and maybe a Tricentennial team at the end of all of it. I'm pondering expansion and other things, but right now, I think a dosage of exploring the history would be useful.

Also I'd like to go through and retire the numbers of some players on teams. Some teams i've done it, but others have never been examined.

Actually Bill Simmons concept of a leveled-HOF is better.

ESPN.com: Page 2 : Pyramid scheme could really help Hall

You rank guys based on where they slot, this makes room for all of the best players of an era to be enshrined.
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Old 12-29-2014, 06:01 PM   #7
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I think a pyramid idea is interesting because I think it's easier in this league to isolate the Top 10 greatest players of all time over 300 years -- even including active players -- than it is to sort out the bottom half of the best players ever. So I think with any league like that, you want to hear of the elites or the best players that the league has to offer. So that'll be what we do first is to focus on those elite types, the ones that if you're gonna download the league file and play, that you should know about from the jump.

That said, the latest incarnation of the league setup has not been uploaded yet. I just made it, so...I haven't released it yet. I imagine I will someday, though.
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Old 01-06-2015, 05:11 PM   #8
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Sidenote. Today being HOF day I'm thinking about this more. But in other news...there have only been two father-son teammates in baseball history. Brothers are more common, but I've never had a set of brothers on a team in my dynasty ever and I think it'd be interesting to arrange some pairs and see how that'd go.
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Old 01-06-2015, 11:19 PM   #9
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Old 01-07-2015, 12:03 AM   #10
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First things first, let's take a look at the UPB wing of the Hall, since it's smaller and it's easier to manage. Plus all of the players are modern cases so it's easier.

The most tedious thing about this is that there is no easy way to mass export the player stat cards, so if there's a particular player that you're especially interested in besides the brief I post, then...you can let me know.

Otherwise, I'm just going go for it.

There are currently 25 Hall of Famers who have played part of their careers in the UPB since 2074 when that league was created. Unlike any of the other secondary major leagues, the UPB was a major league from the start and seeded largely from teams that came over from the D2D, which makes it the most legitimate of those alternative leagues, but we haven't gotten to a point yet where guys are say, spending their entire careers in secondary leagues so we need to begin evaluating their careers differently than others, but future HOF cases will necessitate that.

Along the way, we might take a look at borderline cases who have not been inducted yet and have you help me decide whether they deserve enshrinement in Cincinnati.

Let's take a look at our UPB inductees and figure out their tiers. For now, I think we'll consider the tiers fluid until I can start compiling a list of them.
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Old 01-07-2015, 12:29 AM   #11
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PARKER ASHLEY, OF (2062-86)




Ashley only spent one year in the UPB and so I'm just going to evaluate him amongst the all-times everywhere.

17-time all-star, ROY award and 5-time MVP award winner.

As of today:
5th all-time in WAR (184.7)
4th all-time in WPA (95.7)
6th all-time in VORP (1709.2)

Had his number retired by both the Chicago Rouges and the Eau Claire Paws, where he split his ABA career, save for one year in Japan in the UPB.

His hit total is good for 27th all-time, in case you saw that number and were thinking in modern MLB terms, but he's obviously a dream from the advanced metrics point of view.

Having seen all of the all-time greats, I think he's just below that GOAT status, but if you're starting a team, you'd always take him unless there was a compelling player not to.

So for that reason, he's Tier 4 to me.


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Old 01-07-2015, 12:57 AM   #12
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JOE PETERS
Turns out he was the greatest player in the history of the game. At a different time in this league, that might not have been the case, but because he came at a time when feeders were generating talent for the game, his unique skills made him above and beyond his competitors.

He is he all-time leader in VORP, GAMES, RUNS, HITS, TOTAL BASES, SINGLES, HOME RUNS, RBI, WAR

His number was #49 was retired by Baton Rogue, Baltimore and the Carolina Wrens. His #55 was retired by the Los Angeles Seraphs.

22-time MVP
Rookie of the Year Award
27-time All-Star


Code:
Year/Team/League	Age	G	AB	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	R	BB	HP	SF	K	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	OPS+	VORP	WAR
2042 Baton Rouge - D2D	23	162	575	158	9	3	27	81	113	143	4	2	105	25	9	.275	.421	.442	.863	140	63.2	7.7
2043 Baton Rouge - D2D	24	163	550	188	20	6	34	89	135	186	3	4	53	19	3	.342	.507	.585	1.093	198	125.6	12.2
2044 Baton Rouge - D2D	25	163	557	220	31	6	39	117	144	166	1	7	22	28	5	.395	.529	.682	1.212	231	146.3	13.4
2045 Baton Rouge - D2D	26	162	582	223	28	8	42	145	165	158	4	5	25	25	3	.383	.514	.675	1.189	220	143.4	16.3
2046 Baton Rouge - D2D	27	162	600	241	51	6	61	187	189	170	2	3	27	18	4	.402	.533	.812	1.345	257	183.6	19.4
2047 Baton Rouge - D2D	28	68	250	99	10	4	24	64	65	59	0	5	9	9	2	.396	.503	.756	1.259	228	65.9	7.5
2048 Los Angeles - D2D	29	158	502	202	36	7	47	156	148	143	2	10	19	40	9	.402	.528	.783	1.311	236	156.7	13.8
2049 Los Angeles - D2D	30	192	691	283	45	8	67	204	207	189	2	9	56	42	13	.410	.532	.789	1.321	243	214.6	20.5
2050 Los Angeles - D2D	31	158	558	201	24	5	41	120	139	137	2	8	42	36	12	.360	.482	.642	1.124	199	120.4	12.3
2051 Los Angeles - D2D	32	158	559	222	30	7	42	127	149	140	3	9	33	35	14	.397	.513	.701	1.215	233	146.7	13.0
2052 Los Angeles - D2D	33	158	555	189	32	8	43	130	144	152	3	3	49	26	3	.341	.482	.659	1.142	209	126.6	12.2
2053 Chicago - D2D	34	87	313	103	14	2	19	51	63	80	1	1	19	16	4	.329	.466	.569	1.035	189	57.4	6.4
2053 Baltimore - D2D	34	71	253	94	19	1	15	53	56	51	0	2	17	11	2	.372	.474	.632	1.106	208	53.2	5.3
2053 Total - D2D	34	158	566	197	33	3	34	104	119	131	1	3	36	27	6	.348	.469	.597	1.067	0	110.6	11.7
2054 Baltimore - D2D	35	158	547	199	28	7	37	120	119	137	3	3	42	15	2	.364	.491	.644	1.135	209	125.1	13.2
2055 Baltimore - D2D	36	158	552	201	29	0	49	139	141	145	3	5	44	11	3	.364	.495	.683	1.178	223	132.1	14.1
2056 Baltimore - D2D	37	158	549	185	24	5	47	131	142	148	3	8	40	13	2	.337	.475	.656	1.130	214	120.5	13.0
2057 Baltimore - D2D	38	158	535	182	34	5	34	109	113	140	2	12	51	7	3	.340	.470	.613	1.083	200	107.1	12.0
2058 Baltimore - D2D	39	158	555	211	32	9	39	130	104	132	5	7	44	10	2	.380	.498	.681	1.179	226	136.6	15.1
2059 Baltimore - D2D	40	158	565	215	35	9	43	151	135	157	0	6	30	9	0	.381	.511	.703	1.214	239	148.0	15.7
2060 Baltimore - D2D	41	158	579	222	40	4	37	135	153	136	3	8	34	40	24	.383	.497	.658	1.155	205	131.9	13.2
2061 Baltimore - D2D	42	158	589	217	31	2	31	110	133	133	4	2	54	14	7	.368	.486	.586	1.072	197	112.7	9.8
2062 Baltimore - D2D	43	158	570	198	36	8	28	113	123	139	4	7	56	17	0	.347	.474	.586	1.060	195	109.9	9.3
2064 Virginia - D2D	45	123	435	145	28	2	21	81	85	80	0	2	60	15	2	.333	.435	.552	.987	180	67.3	5.1
2064 New York - D2D	45	33	120	39	6	0	3	19	26	24	0	1	11	2	0	.325	.434	.450	.884	154	14.1	1.0
2064 Total - D2D	45	156	555	184	34	2	24	100	111	104	0	3	71	17	2	.332	.435	.530	.965	0	81.4	6.0
2067 Carolina - D2D	48	158	606	193	30	1	17	95	100	89	0	7	77	12	0	.318	.402	.455	.857	147	62.9	4.4
2068 Carolina - D2D	49	158	604	209	30	4	19	87	96	79	2	3	75	10	2	.346	.422	.503	.925	161	73.6	5.8
2069 Carolina - D2D	50	158	561	194	31	5	26	96	102	91	1	8	52	28	24	.346	.433	.558	.991	164	72.8	6.5
2070 Carolina - D2D	51	158	602	199	42	2	21	82	90	61	2	4	93	14	4	.331	.392	.512	.903	154	61.9	6.2
2071 Carolina - D2D	52	158	601	168	27	3	24	84	94	73	1	8	103	6	2	.280	.354	.454	.809	127	39.4	3.9
2072 Carolina - D2D	53	158	655	214	39	2	18	92	118	70	1	4	116	13	0	.327	.390	.475	.865	141	64.4	6.4
2073 Texas - D2D	54	54	215	62	12	2	1	31	27	17	0	3	40	1	0	.288	.336	.377	.713	95	5.9	0.2
2073 Los Angeles - D2D	54	104	430	121	22	0	13	46	76	47	2	3	77	2	1	.281	.353	.423	.776	115	21.0	2.1
2073 Total - D2D	54	158	645	183	34	2	14	77	103	64	2	6	117	3	1	.284	.347	.408	.755	0	26.9	2.3
2074 Tacoma - D2D	55	44	166	43	7	0	3	15	20	18	1	0	39	1	0	.259	.335	.355	.691	90	0.4	-0.2
2074 Los Angeles - D2D	55	5	4	1	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	3	0	0	.250	.250	.250	.500	44	-0.2	-0.0
2074 Baton Rouge - D2D	55	8	23	7	2	0	0	4	1	0	0	0	4	0	0	.304	.304	.391	.696	89	0.5	0.1
2074 Total - D2D	55	57	193	51	9	0	3	19	22	18	1	0	46	1	0	.264	.330	.358	.688	0	0.7	-0.1
Total D2D		4603	16608	5848	914	141	1012	3394	3716	3690	64	169	1621	570	161	.352	.468	.607	1.075	195	3211.3	316.9
Total JWL		58	210	54	2	3	17	36	51	58	1	2	33	25	3	.257	.417	.538	.955	100	29.3	2.9
If we were naming wings, Tier 5 would be the Joe Peters wing of the Hall of Fame.

Period.


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Old 01-07-2015, 01:38 AM   #13
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Gonna go back and start dredging up some of the older dudes of history because the newer guys are easy, but really want to talk about some of the OGs of the game.
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Old 01-07-2015, 01:49 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkcloud4579 View Post


JOE PETERS(2042-74)
He's a weird case, in that, a user from my 200+ year dynasty had his commissioned. We had no idea he'd be this good to be honest. But man...his career WAR is 316.2, tops of anyone, the next closest Hall of Famer is at 202, which should just give a sense of how good he was for how long.

22-time MVP (Though to be fair, OOTP awards that too often based on VORP and if you're not paying attention one guy can rack up a ton if he's dominant) and 27-time all-star for those keeping score at home. His number is retired by the Arkansas Red Sticks (formerly Baton Rouge), Carolina Wrens & Baltimore Atlantics, the most of any player ever.

We simply haven't ever in my league seen a hitter like him for as good, for as long. He played until he as 55. I did unretire him once, but after that, the game just kept letting him play. I finally force retired him because I felt like it might let him play until he was 60.

If we were naming wings, Tier 5 would be the Joe Peters wing of the Hall of Fame.

Period.

5900 Hits? Wow! Can you post his career stats?
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Old 01-07-2015, 02:34 AM   #15
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I updated his thread with the stats from the original dynasty.

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Old 01-07-2015, 03:39 AM   #16
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How'd ya get him to play until he was 58? Wonder how many HR Ruth, Bonds or Aaron would have hit if they played until 58.
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Old 01-07-2015, 10:52 AM   #17
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Did you create Joe Peters to be the greatest player in history on purpose, with 250s across the board and impervious to any injury, just to see how he would do?

And is your real life name Joe Peters? :wink:
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Old 01-07-2015, 11:40 AM   #18
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Did you create Joe Peters to be the greatest player in history on purpose, with 250s across the board and impervious to any injury, just to see how he would do?

And is your real life name Joe Peters? :wink:


No, I let users from the forum create their own characters and so, he belongs to an OOTPer

Injuries are turned off in this universe, because I play the fast-sim way (no injuries, fatigue high or normal, tinker in the off-season but then make no real moves during the actual season)

I've always played that way, though.

Quote:
How'd ya get him to play until he was 58? Wonder how many HR Ruth, Bonds or Aaron would have hit if they played until 58.
OOTP always retires guys at 45 it seems. But this is the first version where occasional dudes will play past 45 if they're still at a certain level. Peters retired at 45 like normal, but I unretired him because he was a few HRs short of a milestone (I forget which one, probably homers...) and so after that, I just let him play and I forgot he was still around tbh... FWIW, I have seen guys who I didn't force unretire last until 46 or 47 without intervention. This is the first version I've ever seen that.

If you want to keep a guy around for longer without having to always unretire him though, all you have to do is change the age of the player (I usually go back 10 years) and that way they'll last longer. I don't edit ratings in these instances, but it does give guys who are otherwise performing at a high level a chance to keep it up.

Plus dudes like Satchel Paige and others played well into their 50s and even Julio Franco played until his late 40s. Dudes today have no incentive to play forever because there's too much money involved, but...I do like modeling a world where some elites hang on too long if they're doing well.
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Old 01-07-2015, 01:09 PM   #19
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Plus dudes like Satchel Paige and others played well into their 50s and even Julio Franco played until his late 40s. Dudes today have no incentive to play forever because there's too much money involved, but...I do like modeling a world where some elites hang on too long if they're doing well.
All due respect, I have always disagreed with the idea that players routinely retire early from the majors because of "too much money involved". If it was all about the money, then guys would routinely be leaving the game once they made 30 or 50 or 70 million or whatever in their careers, more money than they would ever need in their lifetimes, and we would see very good players leaving the game before their 30th birthdays.

My opinion is that these guys, these major league baseball players, are addicted to the trappings of playing baseball, and especially to being at the top of a very competitive, very visible vocation. This is why guys like Ken Griffey Jr., Tom Glavine, Jim Thome, John Smoltz, Tom Gordon, Craig Biggio, Ivan Rodriguez, Luis Gonzalez, Raul Ibanez—and too many others to keep looking up and naming—continue playing baseball for several years in their late 30s and 40s at salaries far below their peaks—less than $2 or $3 million a year in some cases—even though they have already made close to or better than $100 million during their careers. After you get to a certain point, it really is not about the money anymore. It's about the game, the competition, the camaraderie, the need to excel. (And who knows, perhaps the traveling and the endless tail on the road, too).

I will agree that there's one thing you don't see anymore that's money-related: you don't see major league stars ending their careers playing several years in the minor leagues because they still need the money. But that's because today's player is paid what he is actually worth, instead of being lowballed by greedy owners and leagues, plus the minor leagues is developmental these days anyway. Although that did not stop Wes Chamberlain, Ryan Langerhans, Scott Burroughs, Tracy McGrady and other guys from playing independent league ball, despite the money they made in professional sports. Because in the final analysis, it's almost never about the money. Otherwise, these guys would have real jobs that pay living wages instead of playing independent league ball for a pittance.
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Old 01-07-2015, 01:43 PM   #20
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All good points.

To give you all a sense of how this league has evolved over the past 300+ years with no injuries and so forth, I've gone and taken screenshots of all of the batters in the ABA HOF by WAR and will do a separate post for pitchers.

I'll go through and highlight each guy over time and put them in a tier, but...I figured the best way to really make sense of the jarring numbers compared to IRL was to post all of these numbers.













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