Vote: Time Warp HOF Ballot 1940

Matt from TN · 07-07-2004, 11:16 PM

1936 Initial Ballot Results, 1937 Results, 1938 Results, 1939 Results

No players were elected to the RL HOF in 1940.

All players who received at least 5% of votes on last ballot were retained for this ballot. I added players with HOF Standards scores of 35-39. I also added players who became eligible for the ballot in 1940 (retired after 1934 season).

All players not receiving 5% of votes on this ballot will be removed.

Players who have been retired for 20 years are not eligible for this ballot, but since many of them are just becoming eligible by my HOF Standards scores, I will do this: If a player is over the 20 year mark, he will be removed from the ballot once 1946 gets here and the VC is in effect. After that point, the regular 20-year rule will be used.

Vote for as many or as few as you want. Max votes are 10.

HOF Standard: 50 is considered an average HOF'er. 100 is max.

Batters

Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List):
AVG: .365
Hits: 4000
HR: 340 (pre-1939)
RBI: 1713
2B: 665
BB: 1643
R: 2004
SB: 921

Whitey Kohse, SS, Last Season: 1932, HOF Standard: 74
2749 H, 660 2B, 131 HR, 1346 RBI, 1523 R, 853 K, 1643 BB, 164 SB, .324 AVG, .939 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 4
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: OBP 5, SLG 3, OPS 5, Doubles 4, Runs 1, Walks 6
Career Top 10: RBI, Doubles, Walks (#1), Runs

Tom Turley, C, Last Season: 1930, HOF Standard: 71
3098 H, 395 2B, 131 HR, 1502 RBI, 1653 R, 931 K, 1454 BB, 420 SB, .293 AVG, .814 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 2
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: Walks 1
Career Top 10: Hits, RBI, Runs, Walks

"Flaky" Arsenault, SS, Last Season: 1930, HOF Standard: 59
3511 H, 351 2B, 28 HR, 1330 RBI, 1661 R, 446 K, 1012 BB, 359 SB, .336 AVG, .838 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: 1
Gold Gloves: 3
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: Hits 1, Runs 1
Career Top 10: Hits, Runs

Jed Burke, 2B, Last Season: 1921, HOF Standard: 59
2950 H, 265 2B, 18 HR, 1055 RBI, 1228 R, 600 K, 921 BB, 138 SB, .345 AVG, .851 OPS
BOY Award: 2
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 1
Pennants: 4
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: 3
Led League in: OBP 4, SLG1, OPS 2, Hits 3, BB 1
Career Top 10: NONE

Campbell Ditty, CF, Last Season: 1929, HOF Standard: 56
3131 H, 665 2B, 206 HR, 1628 RBI, 1313 R, 628 K, 665 BB, 60 SB, .309 AVG, .797 OPS
BOY Award: 2
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 4
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: 2B 3, HR 5, RBI 1
Career Top 10: Hits, HR, RBI, 2B (#1)

Patrick Seifried, 1B, Last Season: 1924, HOF Standard: 51
2720 H, 313 2B, 59 HR, 1195 RBI, 1348 R, 851 K, 1137 BB, 235 SB, .327 AVG, .867 OPS
BOY Award: 3
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 5
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: 1
Led League in: OBP 3, SLG 1, OPS 2, RBI 2, Runs 2, BB 3
Career Top 10: NONE

Paris "Frenchie" Fournier, 3B, Last Season: 1924, HOF Standard: 49
2730 H, 465 2B, 24 HR, 980 RBI, 1511 R, 354 K, 541 BB, 802 SB, .296 AVG, .772 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 4
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: Hits 2, 2B 1, 3B 2, Runs 4, SB 7
Career Top 10: 3B, Runs, SB

"Dark Horse" Allen, CF, Last Season: 1913, HOF Standard: 42
1795 H, 213 2B, 67 HR, 709 RBI, 907 R, 528 K, 871 BB, 13 SB, .325 AVG, .883 OPS
BOY Award: 3
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: 2
Led League in: OBP 2, SLG 4, OPS 4, Hits 2, 3B 1, HR 1, Runs 3, BB 5
Career Top 10: NONE

Charlie Matthews, RF, Last Season: 1929, HOF Standard: 40
2027 H, 449 2B, 93 HR, 1067 RBI, 1159 R, 411 K, 432 BB, 457 SB, .308 AVG, .846 OPS
BOY Award: 2
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 5
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: 2
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: SLG 2, Hits 1, RBI 1, Runs 2, SB 3
Career Top 10: NONE

"Ray of Light" Brown, RF, Last Season: 1926, HOF Standard: 49
2526 H, 339 2B, 130 HR, 1155 RBI, 1314 R, 969 K, 828 BB, 167 SB, .300 AVG, .836 OPS
BOY Award: 2
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 11
Pennants: 4
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: SLG 2, Hits 2, 3B 1, HR 2, Runs 1
Career Top 10: 3B

Marty Pasinetti, RF, Last Season: 1929, HOF Standard: 37
1990 H, 328 2B, 53 HR, 997 RBI, 1152 R, 400 K, 1051 BB, 212 SB, .293 AVG, .822 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 1
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: RBI 1, BB 1
Career Top 10: NONE

Lou Langley, 3B, Last Season: 1925, HOF Standard: 36
2219 H, 339 2B, 107 HR, 1197 RBI, 1122 R, 792 K, 1058 BB, 24 SB, .270 AVG, .758 OPS
BOY Award: 1
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 0
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: SLG 1, OPS 1, HR 2, RBI 1, BB 1
Career Top 10: NONE

Calvin Zayas, RF, Last Season: 1926, HOF Standard: 35
2336 H, 385 2B, 45 HR, 1001 RBI, 1125 R, 381 K, 485BB, 45 SB, .306 AVG, .801 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 1
Pennants: NONE
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 10: NONE

Robert "Moneybags" Tatum, RF, Last Season: 1920, HOF Standard: 35
2415 H, 475 2B, 109 HR, 1052 RBI, 1031 R, 630 K, 1069 BB, 24 SB, .296 AVG, .782 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 1
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: 1
Led League in: 2B 2, HR 2, RBI 1
Career Top 10: NONE

Clyde Kreisle, SS, Last Season: 1917, HOF Standard: 35
2302 H, 256 2B, 27 HR, 978 RBI, 1104 R, 395 K, 346 BB, 546 SB, .276 AVG, .692 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 4
Pennants: 5
WS Victories: 2
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: RBI 1, SB 1
Career Top 10: NONE

Ron Bennarivo, SS, Last Season: 1934, HOF Standard: 61
2871 H, 458 2B, 135 HR, 1343 RBI, 1668 R, 692 K, 1476 BB, 637 SB, .279 AVG, .784 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: 1
Gold Gloves: 1
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: Runs 1, SB 2
Career Top 10: Runs, BB, SB

Tike Kaufman, 3B, Last Season: 1934, HOF Standard: 44
1786 H, 304 2B, 80 HR, 913 RBI, 1058 R, 317 K, 1253 BB, 286 SB, .300 AVG, .866 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 5
Pennants: NONE
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: OBP 3, BB 4
Career Top 10: NONE

Matt from TN · 07-07-2004, 11:16 PM

Pitchers

Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List):
ERA: 2.10
W: 365 (pre-1939)
K: 2612
CG: 601
SHO: 95

Allen Albertini, Last Season: 1920, HOF Standard: 60
265-147, 64.3%, 2.32 IP, 3982.3 IP, 1275 BB, 1724 K, 306 CG, 59 SHO, 1.05 WHIP
POY Award: 1
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: NONE
WS Victories: NONE
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: ERA 2, WHIP 1, BB 1, SHO 1
Career Top 10: ERA, SHO

Will Haggan, Last Season: 1922, HOF Standard: 58
337-299, 53.0%, 3.28 ERA, 5837.1 IP, 1597 BB, 2612 K, 601 CG, 45 SHO, 1.15 WHIP
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: 2
No-Hitters: 2
Led League in: Wins 1, Losses 1, IP 2
Career Top 10: Wins, K's (#1), CG (#1)

Mark Krosser, Last Season: 1916, HOF Standard: 57
266-181, 59.5%, 2.50 ERA, 4134.2 IP, 653 BB, 2131 K, 419 CG, 39 SHO, 1.10 WHIP
POY Award: 2
ROY Award: 1
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: ERA 3, WHIP 1, Wins 2, IP 1, K's 2, CG 2, SHO 1
Career Top 10: ERA, K's

Bowie Castellon, Last Season: 1916, HOF Standard: 57
262-146, 64.2%, 2.52 ERA, 3801 IP, 777 BB, 1298 K, 397 CG, 50 SHO, 1.08 WHIP
POY Award: 3
ROY Award: 1
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: ERA 2, WHIP 1, Wins 3, CG 2
Career Top 10: ERA, SHO

Dave "The Shepard" McBean, Last Season: 1916, HOF Standard: 56
254-151, 62.7%, 2.52 ERA, 3747 IP, 611 BB, 1529 K, 386 CG, 55 SHO, 1.06 WHIP
POY Award: 1
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: Wins 3, IP 1, K's 1, CG 3, SHO 1
Career Top 10: ERA, SHO

"Nasty Ned" Fargo, Last Season: 1933, HOF Standard: 46
322-261, 55.2%, 3.99 ERA, 5502 IP, 1073 BB, 1482 K, 415 CG, 31 SHO, 1.24 WHIP
POY Award: 1
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: Wins 1, Losses 1, IP 5, CG 2
Career Top 10: Wins

"Evil" Gary Archer, Last Season: 1914, HOF Standard: 45
237-188, 55.8%, 2.86 ERA, 3922.1 IP, 984 BB, 1631 K, 405 CG, 47 SHO, 1.09 WHIP
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: 3
Led League in: WHIP 2, CG 1, SHO 1
Career Top 10: NONE

Johnny Swinson, Last Season: 1930, HOF Standard: 44
256-167, 60.5%, 3.23 ERA, 3900.2 IP, 729 BB, 1159 K, 348 CG, 33 SHO, 1.17 WHIP
POY Award: 3
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: ERA 3, WHIP 1, Wins 3, IP 2, CG 1, SHO 1
Career Top 10: NONE

Allan Gilbrech, Last Season: 1921, HOF Standard: 38
246-221, 52.7%, 3.15 ERA, 4298.1 IP, 1076 BB, 1475 K, 428 CG, 49 SHO, 1.20 WHIP
POY Award: 1
ROY Award: 1
Pennants: 4
WS Victories: 3
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: Wins 2, Losses 2, CG 2
Career Top 10: NONE

Johnny "Junkyard" Franklin, Last Season: 1932, HOF Standard: 37
275-214, 56.2%, 3.95 ERA, 4622.2 IP, 1102 BB, 1568 K, 365 CG, 28 SHO, 1.28 WHIP
POY Award: 1
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: Wins 1, IP 1, CG 1
Career Top 10: NONE

Dan Laraba, Last Season: 1922, HOF Standard: 37
223-200, 52.7%, 2.94 ERA, 3877.2 IP, 844 BB, 1497 K, 371 CG, 37 SHO, 1.15 WHIP
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: NONE
WS Victories: NONE
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: WHIP 2, IP 1, CG 2
Career Top 10: NONE

Jon Douglas, Last Season: 1915, HOF Standard: 37
226-195, 53.7%, 2.87 ERA, 3857.1 IP, 840 BB, 1625 K, 378 CG, 60 SHO, 1.21 WHIP
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: NONE
WS Victories: NONE
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: K's 1, CG 1, SHO 1
Career Top 10: SHO

Patrick De Leon, Last Season: 1914, HOF Standard: 37
214-165, 56.5%, 3.31 ERA, 3456.2 IP, 1067 BB, 1700 K, 357 CG, 35 SHO, 1.19 WHIP
POY Award: 1
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: NONE
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: Wins 3, Losses 1, K's 2, BB 1
Career Top 10: NONE

Greg Heiderich, Last Season: 1912, HOF Standard: 36
207-180, 53.5%, 2.71 ERA, 3548 IP, 572 BB, 1247 K, 375 CG, 39 SHO, 1.13 WHIP
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: IP 1, CG 1
Career Top 10: NONE

John Harris, Last Season: 1931, HOF Standard: 35
236-176, 57.3%, 3.70 ERA, 3857.1 IP, 825 BB, 1496 K, 345 CG, 34 SHO, 1.27 WHIP
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: 1
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: Losses 1, K's 1, SHO 1
Career Top 10: NONE

Rob Greenwald, Last Season: 1923, HOF Standard: 35
211-157, 57.3%, 3.11 ERA, 3390.2 IP, 910 BB, 1041 K, 337 CG, 30 SHO, 1.22 WHIP
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 2
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: IP 1
Career Top 10: NONE

Patrick Paulsen, Last Season: 1934, HOF Standard: 31
237-212, 52.8%, 4.14 ERA, 4162 IP, 1487 BB, 1801 K, 358 CG, 17 SHO, 1.29 WHIP
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: 2
Led League in: ERA 1, WHIP 1, K's 2, CG 1
Career Top 10: NONE

tward13 · 07-07-2004, 11:42 PM

Kohse
Turley
Ditty
Albertini
Haggan
Castellon

Carlton · 07-08-2004, 01:31 AM

Haggan
McBean
Archer
Albertini
Kohse
Ditty
Fournier
Turley
Ray of Light Brown
Dark Horse Allen

metsgeek · 07-08-2004, 04:15 AM

Ditty
Kohse
Turley
Dark Horse
Ray of Light
Burke
Albertini
Haggan
McBean
Castellon

Dagrims · 07-08-2004, 11:30 AM

Kohse
Turley
Arsenault
Ditty
Albertini
Castellon
Krosser
McBean

Ankhiel · 07-08-2004, 12:23 PM

Turley
Arsenault
Ditty
Albertini
Krosser
Fargo

rogmax11 · 07-08-2004, 12:45 PM

Kohse
Ditty
Burke
Arsenault
Turley
Albertini
Krosser
McBean
Castellon
and, because I cant ignore 11 Gold Gloves and a great nickname: R.o.L. Brown

scprideandms · 07-08-2004, 01:58 PM

Kohse
Turley
Ditty
Albertini
Haggan
Castellon

ifspuds · 07-08-2004, 02:06 PM

I keep waiting for a jdw analysis of the options and overlooked candidates before I vote...

Ankhiel · 07-08-2004, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifspuds

I keep waiting for a jdw analysis of the options and overlooked candidates before I vote...

not much new interesting people to vote for anyway, so you can use previous year's analysist :P

fhomess · 07-08-2004, 05:11 PM

In no particular order:
Kohse
Arsenault
Turley
Albertini
Krosser
Haggan

OBL · 07-08-2004, 05:18 PM

Kohse
Turley
Ditty
Burke
Castellon
Ro L Brown

jdw · 07-08-2004, 05:38 PM

Matt - a correction needs to be made on these:

Mark Krosser
POY Award: 1

Krosser won the POY in 1903 and 1905.

Bowie Castellon
POY Award: 2

Castellon won the award in 1908, 1909, and 1913. He was the second person to win 3 POY, after Raymond Gindler and right before Murph.

John

Kaline · 07-08-2004, 06:12 PM

Kohse, duh

Turley, duh

Flaky, duh

Burke, duh

Ditty (Good defence from Center plus a top hitter, obvious)

Seifried (Peak hitting and defence)

Dark Horse Allen (High peak, good teams)

Matthews (2 BoY, 5 GG, plus helped out good teams)
---Were his 2 BoY the years his team won the WS?

Brown (Very good all around hitter, 2 BoY, 11 gold gloves, very good all around)

Swinson (High Peak Value, 3 PoY and led the league quite a bit)

Wow....thats a LOT of people.

Anybody notice how Haggan looks a LOT like Nolan Ryan?

jdw · 07-08-2004, 06:19 PM

In alpha order:

Hitters:
Dark Horse Allen
Jean-Francois Arsenault
Jed Burke
Whitey Kohse
Patrick Seifried

Pitchers:
Allen Albertini
Bowie Castellon
Mark Krosser

Kohse and Dark Horse are the "must" votes I think for everyone. They are probably the best players not currently in the HOF. Kohse's OPS is staggering, even given much of it came in the Roaring 20s. Allen... well, see the posts others have made along with my rather emphatic one at the end of the last thread. We really should have made him a dunker earlier.

Jed Burke and Patrick Seifried are my favorite "forgotten greats" among the candidates. I've pimped them enough in other threads.

Flaky gets some credit in my book for being a SS going along with the very long career and very good numbers.

Albertini, Castellon and Krosser are all a bit of a toss up when you look at them. They do lower the HOF level below 300 wins, but I think they are considerably better pitchers than Ned Fargo and Will Haggan baring good park factor adjustments.

On Ditty... I'm still struck by that .797 OPS despite playing a significant chunk of his career in the 20s. Burke, Flaky and Seifried are all significantly higher despite playing far larger chunks of their careers prior to the 20s.

John

ifspuds · 07-08-2004, 06:21 PM

Kohse
Burke
Ditty
Allen
Albertini
Haggan

metsgeek · 07-08-2004, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdw

On Ditty... I'm still struck by that .797 OPS despite playing a significant chunk of his career in the 20s. Burke, Flaky and Seifried are all significantly higher despite playing far larger chunks of their careers prior to the 20s.

John

I'm beginning to think the Statman's on crack. The ONLY reason that Ditty's OPS is much lower is due to his lack of walks. Of course they're going to have a higher OPS when they have nearly 1000 more walks.

Once again, the most important stats are Runs and RBI. Your job is to score runs to win games. That's what Ditty did. I beleive the others are worthy, too (except maybe Seifreid....zero Career Top 10's), but I may just have to remove my vote for Burke, now.

In '46, the White Sox had better be careful when visiting Fenway.

jdw · 07-08-2004, 08:33 PM

metsgeek wrote:

> I'm beginning to think the Statman's on crack.

No drugs or booze since my senior year in college... which is now 17 years ago.

> The ONLY reason that Ditty's OPS is much lower
> is due to his lack of walks.

Not correct:

.327/.408/.459/.867 - Seifried
.345/.409/.442/.851 - Burke
.336/.394/.444/.838 - Flaky
.309/.351/.446/.797 - Ditty

Ditty is giving up Batting Average to all of them. His Isolated Power (SLG-BA) is the best of the bunch, but it's not enough to overcome the gap in BA and OBP.

We also know why Ditty's SLG looks "okay" in this grouping - those years in the 20s.

> Of course they're going to have a higher OPS
> when they have nearly 1000 more walks.

1137 - Seifried
1012 - Flaky
921 - Burke
665 - Ditty

Not really 1000 more walks.

> Once again, the most important stats are Runs
> and RBI. Your job is to score runs to win games.
> That's what Ditty did.

I hate this stat, but let's roll it out:

R+RBI-HR:
2963 - Flaky
2735 - Ditty
2484 - Seifried
2265 - Burke

(R+RBI-HR)/PA:
0.263 - Seifried
0.258 - Flaky
0.253 - Ditty
0.239 - Burke

Ditty doesn't smoke this group in this area *despite* the fact that the Juice Ball of the 20s was helping him:

R+RBI-HR:
1606 - Ditty through 1920
1129 - Ditty 1921-
2735 - Ditty career

(R+RBI-HR)/PA:
0.232 - Ditty through 1920
0.290 - Ditty 1921-
0.253 - Ditty career

You can run it for Flaky and see he's helped a good deal as well, which is why I would rate him below Jed and Seifried. But Ditty's candidacy is really a function of being able 1921-26 years in the Juice Ball era.

> I beleive the others are worthy, too (except maybe
> Seifreid....zero Career Top 10's),

This seems to reflect not looking closely at Seifreid's career. Because of Matt's decision to have Seifreid, one of the biggest stars in the game, jump to the Federal League, he's missing two seasons at a time when he was one of the two or three best players in the AL. I like Matt's choice on having Seifreid jump - it's really cool. But because of it, Seifreid is missing about 380 hits and 179 runs. 3100 hits would placed him #2 to Whiskey Allen when he retired, and 1527 runs would #2 to Woody Allen when he retired. The hits would still be pegged at #10 exactly, while the runs would have been passed by a host of players who got bumps in the lively ball era.

Patrick Seifried is one of the very best players in TWB history. Those two missing years and having the bad luck not to play for the great 1914-16 Cleveland teams mask how truly great he was. Heck, his eventual replacement (Eric Bates) won a pair of BOY awards in 1917 and 1918 in seasons where Seifried was collectively a better player. That's how good Patrick Seifried was - he was still playing at MVP level after returning from the Federal League and being exiled to the Yankees. This years after winning a trio of BOY awards back in "prime" of 1908, 1910 and 1911.

> but I may just have to remove my vote for Burke, now.

One can't vote for the HOF out of spite.

I've also said time and again that I'm not saying that Ditty isn't HOF worthy at some point. He just strikes me as Tony Perez. We're at a point in the HOF where we should be looking for a higher cut of players than the Tony Perez types.

> In '46, the White Sox had better be careful when
> visiting Fenway.

John

Vris · 07-08-2004, 08:56 PM

Phew. jdw, your analysis is staggering. How can you have that much time to poor over stats in a fictional baseball world like that? (I shouldn't be talking. If I was at school, I'd be doing the same thing!)

The future owner of the Boston (N) franchise's votes for the 1940 Hall Of Fame:

Campbell Ditty (premiere power hitter of his era)
"Flaky" Arsenault (best overall shortstop in some time)
Bowie Castellon (eerily consistent)
Patrick Seifried (the best player at his position during his tenure)
Will Haggan (currently the leader in K's and CG's....must count for something)
"Dark Horse" Allen
"Ray of Light" Brown (collectively, two of the most fun players to hear updates on)

I can't justify putting Kohse in. The 0 in BOY and Batting Titles is what gets me. He did win a WS, which is very important. Positionally, he seems to match-up to "Flaky", but doesn't dominate him statistically. Those are my selections.

07-07-2004, 11:16 PM	#1 (permalink)
Matt from TN Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a funk.... Posts: 3,413	Vote: Time Warp HOF Ballot 1940 1936 Initial Ballot Results, 1937 Results, 1938 Results, 1939 Results No players were elected to the RL HOF in 1940. All players who received at least 5% of votes on last ballot were retained for this ballot. I added players with HOF Standards scores of 35-39. I also added players who became eligible for the ballot in 1940 (retired after 1934 season). All players not receiving 5% of votes on this ballot will be removed. Players who have been retired for 20 years are not eligible for this ballot, but since many of them are just becoming eligible by my HOF Standards scores, I will do this: If a player is over the 20 year mark, he will be removed from the ballot once 1946 gets here and the VC is in effect. After that point, the regular 20-year rule will be used. Vote for as many or as few as you want. Max votes are 10. HOF Standard: 50 is considered an average HOF'er. 100 is max. Batters Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List): AVG: .365 Hits: 4000 HR: 340 (pre-1939) RBI: 1713 2B: 665 BB: 1643 R: 2004 SB: 921 Whitey Kohse, SS, Last Season: 1932, HOF Standard: 74 2749 H, 660 2B, 131 HR, 1346 RBI, 1523 R, 853 K, 1643 BB, 164 SB, .324 AVG, .939 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 4 Pennants: 3 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: OBP 5, SLG 3, OPS 5, Doubles 4, Runs 1, Walks 6 Career Top 10: RBI, Doubles, Walks (#1), Runs Tom Turley, C, Last Season: 1930, HOF Standard: 71 3098 H, 395 2B, 131 HR, 1502 RBI, 1653 R, 931 K, 1454 BB, 420 SB, .293 AVG, .814 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: NONE Pennants: 3 WS Victories: 2 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: Walks 1 Career Top 10: Hits, RBI, Runs, Walks "Flaky" Arsenault, SS, Last Season: 1930, HOF Standard: 59 3511 H, 351 2B, 28 HR, 1330 RBI, 1661 R, 446 K, 1012 BB, 359 SB, .336 AVG, .838 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: 1 Gold Gloves: 3 Pennants: 3 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: Hits 1, Runs 1 Career Top 10: Hits, Runs Jed Burke, 2B, Last Season: 1921, HOF Standard: 59 2950 H, 265 2B, 18 HR, 1055 RBI, 1228 R, 600 K, 921 BB, 138 SB, .345 AVG, .851 OPS BOY Award: 2 ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 1 Pennants: 4 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: 3 Led League in: OBP 4, SLG1, OPS 2, Hits 3, BB 1 Career Top 10: NONE Campbell Ditty, CF, Last Season: 1929, HOF Standard: 56 3131 H, 665 2B, 206 HR, 1628 RBI, 1313 R, 628 K, 665 BB, 60 SB, .309 AVG, .797 OPS BOY Award: 2 ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 4 Pennants: 3 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: 2B 3, HR 5, RBI 1 Career Top 10: Hits, HR, RBI, 2B (#1) Patrick Seifried, 1B, Last Season: 1924, HOF Standard: 51 2720 H, 313 2B, 59 HR, 1195 RBI, 1348 R, 851 K, 1137 BB, 235 SB, .327 AVG, .867 OPS BOY Award: 3 ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 5 Pennants: 2 WS Victories: NONE Batting Titles: 1 Led League in: OBP 3, SLG 1, OPS 2, RBI 2, Runs 2, BB 3 Career Top 10: NONE Paris "Frenchie" Fournier, 3B, Last Season: 1924, HOF Standard: 49 2730 H, 465 2B, 24 HR, 980 RBI, 1511 R, 354 K, 541 BB, 802 SB, .296 AVG, .772 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: NONE Pennants: 4 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: Hits 2, 2B 1, 3B 2, Runs 4, SB 7 Career Top 10: 3B, Runs, SB "Dark Horse" Allen, CF, Last Season: 1913, HOF Standard: 42 1795 H, 213 2B, 67 HR, 709 RBI, 907 R, 528 K, 871 BB, 13 SB, .325 AVG, .883 OPS BOY Award: 3 ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: NONE Pennants: 3 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: 2 Led League in: OBP 2, SLG 4, OPS 4, Hits 2, 3B 1, HR 1, Runs 3, BB 5 Career Top 10: NONE Charlie Matthews, RF, Last Season: 1929, HOF Standard: 40 2027 H, 449 2B, 93 HR, 1067 RBI, 1159 R, 411 K, 432 BB, 457 SB, .308 AVG, .846 OPS BOY Award: 2 ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 5 Pennants: 2 WS Victories: 2 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: SLG 2, Hits 1, RBI 1, Runs 2, SB 3 Career Top 10: NONE "Ray of Light" Brown, RF, Last Season: 1926, HOF Standard: 49 2526 H, 339 2B, 130 HR, 1155 RBI, 1314 R, 969 K, 828 BB, 167 SB, .300 AVG, .836 OPS BOY Award: 2 ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 11 Pennants: 4 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: SLG 2, Hits 2, 3B 1, HR 2, Runs 1 Career Top 10: 3B Marty Pasinetti, RF, Last Season: 1929, HOF Standard: 37 1990 H, 328 2B, 53 HR, 997 RBI, 1152 R, 400 K, 1051 BB, 212 SB, .293 AVG, .822 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 1 Pennants: 3 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: RBI 1, BB 1 Career Top 10: NONE Lou Langley, 3B, Last Season: 1925, HOF Standard: 36 2219 H, 339 2B, 107 HR, 1197 RBI, 1122 R, 792 K, 1058 BB, 24 SB, .270 AVG, .758 OPS BOY Award: 1 ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 0 Pennants: 1 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: SLG 1, OPS 1, HR 2, RBI 1, BB 1 Career Top 10: NONE Calvin Zayas, RF, Last Season: 1926, HOF Standard: 35 2336 H, 385 2B, 45 HR, 1001 RBI, 1125 R, 381 K, 485BB, 45 SB, .306 AVG, .801 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 1 Pennants: NONE WS Victories: NONE Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: NONE Career Top 10: NONE Robert "Moneybags" Tatum, RF, Last Season: 1920, HOF Standard: 35 2415 H, 475 2B, 109 HR, 1052 RBI, 1031 R, 630 K, 1069 BB, 24 SB, .296 AVG, .782 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 1 Pennants: 2 WS Victories: NONE Batting Titles: 1 Led League in: 2B 2, HR 2, RBI 1 Career Top 10: NONE Clyde Kreisle, SS, Last Season: 1917, HOF Standard: 35 2302 H, 256 2B, 27 HR, 978 RBI, 1104 R, 395 K, 346 BB, 546 SB, .276 AVG, .692 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 4 Pennants: 5 WS Victories: 2 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: RBI 1, SB 1 Career Top 10: NONE Ron Bennarivo, SS, Last Season: 1934, HOF Standard: 61 2871 H, 458 2B, 135 HR, 1343 RBI, 1668 R, 692 K, 1476 BB, 637 SB, .279 AVG, .784 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: 1 Gold Gloves: 1 Pennants: 1 WS Victories: NONE Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: Runs 1, SB 2 Career Top 10: Runs, BB, SB Tike Kaufman, 3B, Last Season: 1934, HOF Standard: 44 1786 H, 304 2B, 80 HR, 913 RBI, 1058 R, 317 K, 1253 BB, 286 SB, .300 AVG, .866 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 5 Pennants: NONE WS Victories: NONE Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: OBP 3, BB 4 Career Top 10: NONE

07-07-2004, 11:16 PM	#2 (permalink)
Matt from TN Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a funk.... Posts: 3,413	Pitchers Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List): ERA: 2.10 W: 365 (pre-1939) K: 2612 CG: 601 SHO: 95 Allen Albertini, Last Season: 1920, HOF Standard: 60 265-147, 64.3%, 2.32 IP, 3982.3 IP, 1275 BB, 1724 K, 306 CG, 59 SHO, 1.05 WHIP POY Award: 1 ROY Award: NONE Pennants: NONE WS Victories: NONE No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: ERA 2, WHIP 1, BB 1, SHO 1 Career Top 10: ERA, SHO Will Haggan, Last Season: 1922, HOF Standard: 58 337-299, 53.0%, 3.28 ERA, 5837.1 IP, 1597 BB, 2612 K, 601 CG, 45 SHO, 1.15 WHIP POY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Pennants: 2 WS Victories: 2 No-Hitters: 2 Led League in: Wins 1, Losses 1, IP 2 Career Top 10: Wins, K's (#1), CG (#1) Mark Krosser, Last Season: 1916, HOF Standard: 57 266-181, 59.5%, 2.50 ERA, 4134.2 IP, 653 BB, 2131 K, 419 CG, 39 SHO, 1.10 WHIP POY Award: 2 ROY Award: 1 Pennants: 2 WS Victories: 1 No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: ERA 3, WHIP 1, Wins 2, IP 1, K's 2, CG 2, SHO 1 Career Top 10: ERA, K's Bowie Castellon, Last Season: 1916, HOF Standard: 57 262-146, 64.2%, 2.52 ERA, 3801 IP, 777 BB, 1298 K, 397 CG, 50 SHO, 1.08 WHIP POY Award: 3 ROY Award: 1 Pennants: 2 WS Victories: 1 No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: ERA 2, WHIP 1, Wins 3, CG 2 Career Top 10: ERA, SHO Dave "The Shepard" McBean, Last Season: 1916, HOF Standard: 56 254-151, 62.7%, 2.52 ERA, 3747 IP, 611 BB, 1529 K, 386 CG, 55 SHO, 1.06 WHIP POY Award: 1 ROY Award: NONE Pennants: 1 WS Victories: 1 No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: Wins 3, IP 1, K's 1, CG 3, SHO 1 Career Top 10: ERA, SHO "Nasty Ned" Fargo, Last Season: 1933, HOF Standard: 46 322-261, 55.2%, 3.99 ERA, 5502 IP, 1073 BB, 1482 K, 415 CG, 31 SHO, 1.24 WHIP POY Award: 1 ROY Award: NONE Pennants: 1 WS Victories: 1 No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: Wins 1, Losses 1, IP 5, CG 2 Career Top 10: Wins "Evil" Gary Archer, Last Season: 1914, HOF Standard: 45 237-188, 55.8%, 2.86 ERA, 3922.1 IP, 984 BB, 1631 K, 405 CG, 47 SHO, 1.09 WHIP POY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Pennants: 2 WS Victories: 1 No-Hitters: 3 Led League in: WHIP 2, CG 1, SHO 1 Career Top 10: NONE Johnny Swinson, Last Season: 1930, HOF Standard: 44 256-167, 60.5%, 3.23 ERA, 3900.2 IP, 729 BB, 1159 K, 348 CG, 33 SHO, 1.17 WHIP POY Award: 3 ROY Award: NONE Pennants: 2 WS Victories: 1 No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: ERA 3, WHIP 1, Wins 3, IP 2, CG 1, SHO 1 Career Top 10: NONE Allan Gilbrech, Last Season: 1921, HOF Standard: 38 246-221, 52.7%, 3.15 ERA, 4298.1 IP, 1076 BB, 1475 K, 428 CG, 49 SHO, 1.20 WHIP POY Award: 1 ROY Award: 1 Pennants: 4 WS Victories: 3 No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: Wins 2, Losses 2, CG 2 Career Top 10: NONE Johnny "Junkyard" Franklin, Last Season: 1932, HOF Standard: 37 275-214, 56.2%, 3.95 ERA, 4622.2 IP, 1102 BB, 1568 K, 365 CG, 28 SHO, 1.28 WHIP POY Award: 1 ROY Award: NONE Pennants: 3 WS Victories: 1 No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: Wins 1, IP 1, CG 1 Career Top 10: NONE Dan Laraba, Last Season: 1922, HOF Standard: 37 223-200, 52.7%, 2.94 ERA, 3877.2 IP, 844 BB, 1497 K, 371 CG, 37 SHO, 1.15 WHIP POY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Pennants: NONE WS Victories: NONE No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: WHIP 2, IP 1, CG 2 Career Top 10: NONE Jon Douglas, Last Season: 1915, HOF Standard: 37 226-195, 53.7%, 2.87 ERA, 3857.1 IP, 840 BB, 1625 K, 378 CG, 60 SHO, 1.21 WHIP POY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Pennants: NONE WS Victories: NONE No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: K's 1, CG 1, SHO 1 Career Top 10: SHO Patrick De Leon, Last Season: 1914, HOF Standard: 37 214-165, 56.5%, 3.31 ERA, 3456.2 IP, 1067 BB, 1700 K, 357 CG, 35 SHO, 1.19 WHIP POY Award: 1 ROY Award: NONE Pennants: 1 WS Victories: NONE No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: Wins 3, Losses 1, K's 2, BB 1 Career Top 10: NONE Greg Heiderich, Last Season: 1912, HOF Standard: 36 207-180, 53.5%, 2.71 ERA, 3548 IP, 572 BB, 1247 K, 375 CG, 39 SHO, 1.13 WHIP POY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Pennants: 1 WS Victories: 1 No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: IP 1, CG 1 Career Top 10: NONE John Harris, Last Season: 1931, HOF Standard: 35 236-176, 57.3%, 3.70 ERA, 3857.1 IP, 825 BB, 1496 K, 345 CG, 34 SHO, 1.27 WHIP POY Award: NONE ROY Award: 1 Pennants: 1 WS Victories: 1 No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: Losses 1, K's 1, SHO 1 Career Top 10: NONE Rob Greenwald, Last Season: 1923, HOF Standard: 35 211-157, 57.3%, 3.11 ERA, 3390.2 IP, 910 BB, 1041 K, 337 CG, 30 SHO, 1.22 WHIP POY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Pennants: 3 WS Victories: 2 No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: IP 1 Career Top 10: NONE Patrick Paulsen, Last Season: 1934, HOF Standard: 31 237-212, 52.8%, 4.14 ERA, 4162 IP, 1487 BB, 1801 K, 358 CG, 17 SHO, 1.29 WHIP POY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Pennants: 3 WS Victories: 1 No-Hitters: 2 Led League in: ERA 1, WHIP 1, K's 2, CG 1 Career Top 10: NONE Last edited by Matt from TN : 07-08-2004 at 09:26 PM.

07-07-2004, 11:42 PM	#3 (permalink)
tward13 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 892	Kohse Turley Ditty Albertini Haggan Castellon __________________ Time Warp - NY Giants (1946-57) NL Champs 1951, 1952; NY Mets (1962- ) Asahi2 - NY Mets 1977 Champs PBRL - Bkn Dodgers 1922 Champs NTBL - Clev. Indians - 1921, 1922 Champs (League closed) GDBA - Phil. Athletics - 1946 Champs (League closed) MLB Replay - Det. Tigers - 1914 Champs (League closed)

07-08-2004, 04:15 AM	#5 (permalink)
metsgeek Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Norwood, MA Posts: 5,411	Ditty Kohse Turley Dark Horse Ray of Light Burke Albertini Haggan McBean Castellon __________________ Commissioner - PBRL Time Warp Baseball - Boston Red Sox The Baseball Chronicle - Cleveland Spiders

07-08-2004, 11:30 AM	#6 (permalink)
Dagrims Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 3,827	Kohse Turley Arsenault Ditty Albertini Castellon Krosser McBean __________________ "Read books, get brain."

07-08-2004, 01:31 AM	#4 (permalink)
Carlton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Troy, NY Posts: 2,561	Haggan McBean Archer Albertini Kohse Ditty Fournier Turley Ray of Light Brown Dark Horse Allen

07-08-2004, 12:23 PM	#7 (permalink)
Ankhiel Major Leagues Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 466	Turley Arsenault Ditty Albertini Krosser Fargo __________________ GM - TWB Expos

07-08-2004, 12:45 PM	#8 (permalink)
rogmax11 All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,202	Kohse Ditty Burke Arsenault Turley Albertini Krosser McBean Castellon and, because I cant ignore 11 Gold Gloves and a great nickname: R.o.L. Brown

07-08-2004, 01:58 PM	#9 (permalink)
scprideandms All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: N KY, 25 miles from Cincy Posts: 1,307	Kohse Turley Ditty Albertini Haggan Castellon __________________ Change your playground + change your playfriends + change your playtoys + change your playtime = Change your life. If you keep on doing what you've always done you'll keep on gitting what you've always gotten.

07-08-2004, 02:06 PM	#10 (permalink)
ifspuds Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 2,092	I keep waiting for a jdw analysis of the options and overlooked candidates before I vote... __________________ Jeff Watson TWB (co-commissioner): Pittsburgh Pirates GM (team dynasty here, #5 Dynasty of 2005!) (TWB Champs 1966, 1967, 1973, NL Champs 1968, NL East Champs 1969, NL Champs 1970, 1971 NPBL: Illinois Jethawks GM Outpost League: A Fictional World Dynasty (#9 (tie) Dynasty of 2005!)

07-08-2004, 05:11 PM	#12 (permalink)
fhomess All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 1,933	In no particular order: Kohse Arsenault Turley Albertini Krosser Haggan __________________ The Baseball Saga - My fictorical replay dynasty thread (HTML) PBRL - New York Yankees - 1921, 1943, 1944, 1946 American League Champs - 1919, 1923, 1924, 1945, 1949 PBRL Champs TWB - Cleveland Indians - 1974, 1977, 1982 AL East Champs - 1965, 1981 TWB Champs You Pick Tourney - Champions (1940 New York Yankees) ________________________________________________ Football sim anyone? Signup for Goal Line Blitz

07-08-2004, 05:18 PM	#13 (permalink)
OBL Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 93	Kohse Turley Ditty Burke Castellon Ro L Brown __________________ www.smallballonline.com coming soon

07-08-2004, 05:38 PM	#14 (permalink)
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,089	Matt - a correction needs to be made on these: Mark Krosser POY Award: 1 Krosser won the POY in 1903 and 1905. Bowie Castellon POY Award: 2 Castellon won the award in 1908, 1909, and 1913. He was the second person to win 3 POY, after Raymond Gindler and right before Murph. John

07-08-2004, 06:12 PM	#15 (permalink)
Kaline Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 321	Kohse, duh Turley, duh Flaky, duh Burke, duh Ditty (Good defence from Center plus a top hitter, obvious) Seifried (Peak hitting and defence) Dark Horse Allen (High peak, good teams) Matthews (2 BoY, 5 GG, plus helped out good teams) ---Were his 2 BoY the years his team won the WS? Brown (Very good all around hitter, 2 BoY, 11 gold gloves, very good all around) Swinson (High Peak Value, 3 PoY and led the league quite a bit) Wow....thats a LOT of people. Anybody notice how Haggan looks a LOT like Nolan Ryan?

07-08-2004, 06:19 PM	#16 (permalink)
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,089	In alpha order: Hitters: Dark Horse Allen Jean-Francois Arsenault Jed Burke Whitey Kohse Patrick Seifried Pitchers: Allen Albertini Bowie Castellon Mark Krosser Kohse and Dark Horse are the "must" votes I think for everyone. They are probably the best players not currently in the HOF. Kohse's OPS is staggering, even given much of it came in the Roaring 20s. Allen... well, see the posts others have made along with my rather emphatic one at the end of the last thread. We really should have made him a dunker earlier. Jed Burke and Patrick Seifried are my favorite "forgotten greats" among the candidates. I've pimped them enough in other threads. Flaky gets some credit in my book for being a SS going along with the very long career and very good numbers. Albertini, Castellon and Krosser are all a bit of a toss up when you look at them. They do lower the HOF level below 300 wins, but I think they are considerably better pitchers than Ned Fargo and Will Haggan baring good park factor adjustments. On Ditty... I'm still struck by that .797 OPS despite playing a significant chunk of his career in the 20s. Burke, Flaky and Seifried are all significantly higher despite playing far larger chunks of their careers prior to the 20s. John

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07-08-2004, 06:21 PM	#17 (permalink)
ifspuds Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 2,092	Kohse Burke Ditty Allen Albertini Haggan __________________ Jeff Watson TWB (co-commissioner): Pittsburgh Pirates GM (team dynasty here, #5 Dynasty of 2005!) (TWB Champs 1966, 1967, 1973, NL Champs 1968, NL East Champs 1969, NL Champs 1970, 1971 NPBL: Illinois Jethawks GM Outpost League: A Fictional World Dynasty (#9 (tie) Dynasty of 2005!)

07-08-2004, 08:33 PM	#19 (permalink)
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,089	metsgeek wrote: > I'm beginning to think the Statman's on crack. No drugs or booze since my senior year in college... which is now 17 years ago. > The ONLY reason that Ditty's OPS is much lower > is due to his lack of walks. Not correct: .327/.408/.459/.867 - Seifried .345/.409/.442/.851 - Burke .336/.394/.444/.838 - Flaky .309/.351/.446/.797 - Ditty Ditty is giving up Batting Average to all of them. His Isolated Power (SLG-BA) is the best of the bunch, but it's not enough to overcome the gap in BA and OBP. We also know why Ditty's SLG looks "okay" in this grouping - those years in the 20s. > Of course they're going to have a higher OPS > when they have nearly 1000 more walks. 1137 - Seifried 1012 - Flaky 921 - Burke 665 - Ditty Not really 1000 more walks. > Once again, the most important stats are Runs > and RBI. Your job is to score runs to win games. > That's what Ditty did. I hate this stat, but let's roll it out: R+RBI-HR: 2963 - Flaky 2735 - Ditty 2484 - Seifried 2265 - Burke (R+RBI-HR)/PA: 0.263 - Seifried 0.258 - Flaky 0.253 - Ditty 0.239 - Burke Ditty doesn't smoke this group in this area despite the fact that the Juice Ball of the 20s was helping him: R+RBI-HR: 1606 - Ditty through 1920 1129 - Ditty 1921- 2735 - Ditty career (R+RBI-HR)/PA: 0.232 - Ditty through 1920 0.290 - Ditty 1921- 0.253 - Ditty career You can run it for Flaky and see he's helped a good deal as well, which is why I would rate him below Jed and Seifried. But Ditty's candidacy is really a function of being able 1921-26 years in the Juice Ball era. > I beleive the others are worthy, too (except maybe > Seifreid....zero Career Top 10's), This seems to reflect not looking closely at Seifreid's career. Because of Matt's decision to have Seifreid, one of the biggest stars in the game, jump to the Federal League, he's missing two seasons at a time when he was one of the two or three best players in the AL. I like Matt's choice on having Seifreid jump - it's really cool. But because of it, Seifreid is missing about 380 hits and 179 runs. 3100 hits would placed him #2 to Whiskey Allen when he retired, and 1527 runs would #2 to Woody Allen when he retired. The hits would still be pegged at #10 exactly, while the runs would have been passed by a host of players who got bumps in the lively ball era. Patrick Seifried is one of the very best players in TWB history. Those two missing years and having the bad luck not to play for the great 1914-16 Cleveland teams mask how truly great he was. Heck, his eventual replacement (Eric Bates) won a pair of BOY awards in 1917 and 1918 in seasons where Seifried was collectively a better player. That's how good Patrick Seifried was - he was still playing at MVP level after returning from the Federal League and being exiled to the Yankees. This years after winning a trio of BOY awards back in "prime" of 1908, 1910 and 1911. > but I may just have to remove my vote for Burke, now. One can't vote for the HOF out of spite. I've also said time and again that I'm not saying that Ditty isn't HOF worthy at some point. He just strikes me as Tony Perez. We're at a point in the HOF where we should be looking for a higher cut of players than the Tony Perez types. > In '46, the White Sox had better be careful when > visiting Fenway. John

07-08-2004, 08:56 PM	#20 (permalink)
Vris Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: somewhere where I don't know where I am Posts: 3,228	Phew. jdw, your analysis is staggering. How can you have that much time to poor over stats in a fictional baseball world like that? (I shouldn't be talking. If I was at school, I'd be doing the same thing!) The future owner of the Boston (N) franchise's votes for the 1940 Hall Of Fame: Campbell Ditty (premiere power hitter of his era) "Flaky" Arsenault (best overall shortstop in some time) Bowie Castellon (eerily consistent) Patrick Seifried (the best player at his position during his tenure) Will Haggan (currently the leader in K's and CG's....must count for something) "Dark Horse" Allen "Ray of Light" Brown (collectively, two of the most fun players to hear updates on) I can't justify putting Kohse in. The 0 in BOY and Batting Titles is what gets me. He did win a WS, which is very important. Positionally, he seems to match-up to "Flaky", but doesn't dominate him statistically. Those are my selections.