VOTE: Time Warp HOF Ballot 1944

[Matt from TN]

1936 Initial Ballot Results, 1937 Results, 1938 Results, 1939 Results, 1940 Results,
1941 Results, 1942 Results, 1943 Results


No players were elected to the RL HOF in 1944.

All players who received at least 5% of votes on the last ballot were retained for this ballot. I also added players who became eligible for the ballot in 1944 (retired after 1938 season).

All players not receiving 5% of votes on this ballot will be removed.

Players who have been retired for 20 years fall off this ballot if not elected, but since the Veteran's Committee does not begin until 1946, I will do this: If a player is over the 20 year mark, he will be removed from the ballot once 1946 gets here and the VC is in effect. After that point, the regular 20-year rule will be used.

Vote for as many or as few as you want. Max votes are 10.

HOF Standard: 50 is considered an average HOF'er. 100 is max.

Batters

Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List):
AVG: .364
Hits: 4000
HR: 490
RBI: 1847
2B: 665
BB: 1666
R: 2004
SB: 921


Jed Burke, 2B, Last Season: 1921, HOF Standard: 59
2950 H, 265 2B, 18 HR, 1055 RBI, 1228 R, 600 K, 921 BB, 138 SB, .345 AVG, .851 OPS
BOY Award: 2
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 1
Pennants: 4
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: 3
Led League in: OBP 4, SLG1, OPS 2, Hits 3, BB 1
Career Top 10: NONE


Patrick Seifried, 1B, Last Season: 1924, HOF Standard: 51
2720 H, 313 2B, 59 HR, 1195 RBI, 1348 R, 851 K, 1137 BB, 235 SB, .327 AVG, .867 OPS
BOY Award: 3
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 5
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: 1
Led League in: OBP 3, SLG 1, OPS 2, RBI 2, Runs 2, BB 3
Career Top 10: NONE


Paris "Frenchie" Fournier, 3B, Last Season: 1924, HOF Standard: 49
2730 H, 465 2B, 24 HR, 980 RBI, 1511 R, 354 K, 541 BB, 802 SB, .296 AVG, .772 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 4
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: Hits 2, 2B 1, 3B 2, Runs 4, SB 7
Career Top 10: 3B, Runs, SB


"Dark Horse" Allen, CF, Last Season: 1913, HOF Standard: 42
1795 H, 213 2B, 67 HR, 709 RBI, 907 R, 528 K, 871 BB, 13 SB, .325 AVG, .883 OPS
BOY Award: 3
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: 2
Led League in: OBP 2, SLG 4, OPS 4, Hits 2, 3B 1, HR 1, Runs 3, BB 5
Career Top 10: NONE


"Ray of Light" Brown, CF, Last Season: 1926, HOF Standard: 49
2526 H, 339 2B, 130 HR, 1155 RBI, 1314 R, 969 K, 828 BB, 167 SB, .300 AVG, .836 OPS
BOY Award: 2
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 11
Pennants: 4
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: SLG 2, Hits 2, 3B 1, HR 2, Runs 1
Career Top 10: 3B


Jerry "Slap" Hertzog, 2B, Last Season: 1937, HOF Standard: 61
2510 H, 395 2B, 122 HR, 1187 RBI, 1491 R, 899 K, 1509 BB, 41 SB, .314 AVG, .872 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: 1
Gold Gloves: 3
Pennants: 4
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: OBP 1, BB 7
Career Top 10: BB


Cyrus Holloway, CF, Last Season: 1937, HOF Standard: 57
2447 H, 540 2B, 114 HR, 1108 RBI, 1299 R, 537 K, 1215 BB, 109 SB, .315 AVG, .863 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 2
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 10: NONE


Willard Schwarz, C, Last Season: 1937, HOF Standard: 41
2050 H, 359 2B, 340 HR, 1399 RBI, 1106 R, 614 K, 595 BB, 14 SB, .260 AVG, .760 OPS
BOY Award: 1
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 8
Pennants: 6
WS Victories: 5
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: SLG 1, HR 3, RBI 1, R 1
Career Top 10: HR


NEW


Glendon "Bull" Zegri, LF, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 58
2934 H, 657 2B, 212 HR, 1713 RBI, 1503 R, 454 K, 1560 BB, 25 SB, .304 AVG, .844 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 2
Pennants: 4
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 10: RBI, 2B, BB


Rod "Cowboy" Glass, 3B, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 49
2772 H, 479 2B, 101 HR, 1172 RBI, 1293 R, 596 K, 609 BB, 39 SB, .309 AVG, .789 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 1
Pennants: 6
WS Victories: 5
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 10: NONE


Clarence Bazart, SS, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 51
2430 H, 396 2B, 59 HR, 1027 RBI, 1193 R, 388 K, 454 BB, 465 SB, .317 AVG, .794 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 2
Pennants: 5
WS Victories: 4
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: 3B 1
Career Top 10: NONE


Ralph "Thunder" Tumbridge, 1B, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 28
2086 H, 371 2B, 243 HR, 1409 RBI, 1095 R, 443 K, 762 BB, 24 SB, .274 AVG, .778 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 9
Pennants: 6
WS Victories: 4
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: RBI 1
Career Top 10: NONE


Lawrence Barry, LF, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 29
2136 H, 259 2B, 100 HR, 838 RBI, 1099 R, 400 K, 479 BB, 258 SB, .309 AVG, .784 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 7
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: Runs 1
Career Top 10: NONE


Kevin Stines, 2B, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 41
2213 H, 467 2B, 55 HR, 983 RBI, 1191 R, 622 K, 815 BB, 336 SB, .285 AVG, .782 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 10
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: 3B 2
Career Top 10: NONE


Nick Graves, RF, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 52
2356 H, 527 2B, 207 HR, 1408 RBI, 1208 R, 775 K, 784 BB, 110 SB, .312 AVG, .877 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: 1
Gold Gloves: 2
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: 2B 1
Career Top 10: NONE

[Matt from TN]

Pitchers

Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List):
ERA: 2.10
W: 390
K: 2986
CG: 601
SHO: 95


Will Haggan, Last Season: 1922, HOF Standard: 58
337-299, 53.0%, 3.28 ERA, 5837.1 IP, 1597 BB, 2612 K, 601 CG, 45 SHO, 1.15 WHIP
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: 2
No-Hitters: 2
Led League in: Wins 1, Losses 1, IP 2
Career Top 10: Wins, K's (#1), CG (#1)


Mark Krosser, Last Season: 1916, HOF Standard: 57
266-181, 59.5%, 2.50 ERA, 4134.2 IP, 653 BB, 2131 K, 419 CG, 39 SHO, 1.10 WHIP
POY Award: 2
ROY Award: 1
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: ERA 3, WHIP 1, Wins 2, IP 1, K's 2, CG 2, SHO 1
Career Top 10: ERA, K's


Dave "The Shepard" McBean, Last Season: 1916, HOF Standard: 56
254-151, 62.7%, 2.52 ERA, 3747 IP, 611 BB, 1529 K, 386 CG, 55 SHO, 1.06 WHIP
POY Award: 1
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: Wins 3, IP 1, K's 1, CG 3, SHO 1
Career Top 10: ERA, SHO


"Nasty Ned" Fargo, Last Season: 1933, HOF Standard: 46
322-261, 55.2%, 3.99 ERA, 5502 IP, 1073 BB, 1482 K, 415 CG, 31 SHO, 1.24 WHIP
POY Award: 1
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: Wins 1, Losses 1, IP 5, CG 2
Career Top 10: Wins


"Evil" Gary Archer, Last Season: 1914, HOF Standard: 45
237-188, 55.8%, 2.86 ERA, 3922.1 IP, 984 BB, 1631 K, 405 CG, 47 SHO, 1.09 WHIP
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: 3
Led League in: WHIP 2, CG 1, SHO 1
Career Top 10: NONE


Tobe Palmer, Last Season: 1936, HOF Standard: 41
266-185, 59.0%, 3.48 ERA, 4316 IP, 1410 BB, 1763 K, 395 CG, 37 SHO, 1.35 WHIP
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 6
WS Victories: 5
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: IP 1, K 1
Career Top 10: NONE


NEW


Scott Fenner, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 54
307-198, 60.8%, 3.50 ERA, 4760.2 IP, 1361 BB, 1699 K, 353 CG, 49 SHO, 1.15 WHIP
POY Award: 4
ROY Award: 1
Pennants: 6
WS Victories: 5
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: ERA 3, WHIP 3, Wins 4, Losses 1, SHO 2
Career Top 10: NONE


Davie "Nightmare" Kendrick, Last Season: 1938, HOF Standard: 29
250-212, 54.1%, 4.26 ERA, 4245.1 IP, 1108 BB, 1485 K, 374 CG, 24 SHO, 1.37 WHIP
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 7
WS Victories: 4
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: Wins 3, IP 2, K's 1, CG 1
Career Top 10: NONE

[Mike Ivie]

Patrick Seifried
Scott Fenner
Will Haggan
Ned Fargo
Mark Krosser

[scprideandms]

Burke Zegri Haggen Krosser

[fhomess]

CF Dark Horse Allen
CF "Ray of Light" Brown
2B Jed Burke
3B "Frenchie" Fournier
RF Nick Graves
1B Patrick Seifried
LF Glendon "Bull" Zegri

SP Scott Fenner
SP Mark Krosser
SP Dave McBean

[metsgeek]

Burke
Dark Horse
Ray of Light
Hertzog
Holloway
Schwarz
Zegri
Graves
Krosser
McBean
Fenner

[rogmax11]

Scott Fenner, legit even with the glut of 300 game winners to consider.
Dave McBean & Mark Krosser, twin twirlers top tier.
Bull Zegri, all those ribbies, even though 50 years on his numbers will not be remarkable
Ray Brown, 11 GGs + offense+special merit for nickname.
Pat Seifried, say, didnt he have a friend who liked cats?
Jed Burke, because .345 just cant be ignored.
Will Haggan, less for 337 than for 601.

[spiffamous]

Haggan
Fargo
Fenner

[haggis007]

Burke
Seifried
Zegri
Fournier
Schwarz
Haggan
Krosser
McBean

[haggis007]

Originally Posted by haggis007

Burke
Seifried
Zegri
Fournier
Schwarz
Haggan
Krosser
McBean

oops, left off Fenner.

[Vris]

Good stuff!

In no particular order;

"Frenchie" Fournier
"Ray of Light" Brown
"Dark Horse" Allen
Patrick Seifried
Will Haggan
"Shephard" McBean
Scott Fenner
Willard Schwarz
"Bull" Zegri

all are locks

[LivnLegend]

Patrick Seifried
Scott Fenner
Jed Burke
Ned Fargo

[Matt from TN]

For the first time ever, I'm gonna weigh in. Part of my voting from here on out will be to keep guys on the ballot who do not deserve to fall off. It could be for statistical reasons, sentimental reasons or just in an attempt at more realism.

The other part of my ballot will be for guys I think should go in on THIS ballot. Many of these guys should eventually go in, but I will vote for the absolute best of them.

Also from time to time, you will see me not cast a vote to purposely keep a player from receiving 100%. I am still quite peeved that Ahrend Nagel got 100% when IMO all other HOF pitchers (Lopresto, Gindler, Tan, Albertini and Castellon), as well as a few of the guys still on the ballot, were better than him. And the only other player to receive 100% was Murphy, who deserved it. Heck, Will friggin' Miller was inducted the same year as Nagel & had 4000 hits, over 2000 R and 900 SB and got just 88.89% !!

Burke
Seifried
Fournier
Allen
Zegri
Tumbridge - 9 GG's, 6 pennants, 4 WS wins & 243 HR's just can't be allowed to fall off the ballot
Glass - same here. Maybe not a HOF'er, but not a one-time balloter either.

Krosser
Archer
Palmer - not ready to let him fall off yet

[Ankhiel]

Burke
Zegri
Haggan
Fenner

[Dagrims]

Seifried
Allen
Brown
Zegri
Burke

Krosser
McBean
Fenner
Haggan

[rogmax11]

Hey 'Grims: How did you make out with Charley? You OK?

[lgkeeper]

Burke
Seifried
Brown
Schqarz
Stines
Haggan
Fenner

[jdw]

In alpha order:

Hitters:
Dark Horse Allen
Jed Burke
Jerry Hertzog
Patrick Seifried
Glendon Zegri

Pitchers:
Scott Fenner
Mark Krosser


Mets - you voted for 11. And yeah, I point that out at risk of you dropping off Burke.


John

[jdw]

Matt wrote:

> Also from time to time, you will see me not cast a
> vote to purposely keep a player from receiving 100%.
> I am still quite peeved that Ahrend Nagel got 100%
> when IMO all other HOF pitchers (Lopresto, Gindler,
> Tan, Albertini and Castellon), as well as a few of the
> guys still on the ballot, were better than him.
> And the only other player to receive 100% was
> Murphy, who deserved it.

I'm not a huge fan of that. :/

I can see when one gets down to the toss-up candidates going with one who's about to fall off in favor of someone you know you can get a chance with next year. But if you look at the candidates and think that this guy is one of the five best players on the ballot who's not in, and there are *more* than five guys that you think are worthy of going in, then one really should include those top five guys and set aside the stuff about 100%, First Ballot, I Hate The Yankees, or jdw vs. Mets Feud Part VI.

Is Nagel a HOFer?

I think we all would agree "yes" to that narrow question.

Was he one of the best guys on the ballot?

Other than the overlooked Dark Horse and (to me) Jed Burke and Pat Seifried, "yes". I like Will Miller a lot, and he had a wonderful career and had those three big records, but those OPS just aren't *dominant* at his peak, and over his career in the context of playing in the 20s to mid-30s, they aren't Woody Woodson material. Did I vote for Will the first time out? Of course. Largely because I don't worry about the 100% concept. Will was worthy of going in, I didn't have any questions about him, and he was one of the ten best on the ballot (and I rarely if ever use 10 anyway).

I think Nagel's 2-1-3-5-2-2 in ERA, 2-1-1-7-1-1 in Wins and 1-1-1-2-2-2 in WHIP from 1924-29 is the stuff of dominance. He supported it with a boatload of IP (1-1-x-3-2-4), with the one year outside the Top Ten due to some injury not in his profile that cost him 5 starts. Do the five POY in six years overrate him? Like Pops with the four straight BOY, Nagel may not have deserved all five POY. But he was right there in all five seasons that he won it. It generally is the Koufax Core of a candidacy.


> Heck, Will friggin' Miller was inducted the same
> year as Nagel & had 4000 hits, over 2000 R
> and 900 SB and got just 88.89% !!

Will got in. Other than Woody and Murph, there really are no players that we can complain *loudly* about not getting 100%. And one of them got 100%. I think we're better off (i) highlighting the Dark Horse who are being forgotten _and_ putting the breaks on people like Haggan who may have gone in easy if some of us didn't worry vocally about it than (ii) complaining about those who should go on and *did* go in.


> Fournier

I know that lots of people like him. I just can't get past this:

OPS Leaderboard Appearances
1910 - .828 - 8th
1912 - .828 - 8th
1916 - .796 - 7th


> Tumbridge - 9 GG's, 6 pennants, 4 WS wins
> & 243 HR's just can't be allowed to fall off
> the ballot

BA Leaderboard Appearances
- None

OBP Leaderboard Appearances
- None

SLG Leaderboard Appearances
1931 - .486 - 6th

OPS Leaderboard Appearances
- None

Lifetime of .274/.340/.438/.778.

Here's a Versus:

.274/.340/.438/.778 vs. .317/.355/.439/.794

The first was a Gold Glove 1B in a hitters era while the second was a Gold Glove SS in a hitters era. They were teammates on every championship team of the Yankes between 1925-38 when they both retired. Oddly enough, the SS' best finish in SLG was the same as the 1B. He also had two Top 10 BA and one Top 10 OBP finishes.

Did anyone ever think Tumbridge was a better player than Clarence Bazart? Maybe for a season here or there, but who would have been easier to shake the tree to replace?


> Glass - same here. Maybe not a HOF'er, but
> not a one-time balloter either.

On one hand you have Cowboy, on the other hand you have Fenner. It doesn't add up, Matt. :/

Votes for Glass and Tumbridge are *to me* like people voting for Larry Bowa or even Davey Lopes. Heck, I liked Lopes a heck of a lot. But neither has any business as vote worthy candidates. I can *understand* people voting for Steve Garvey. I wouldn't, and I'd argue strong against voting for him. But I know what people are looking at, and there are things that one can point to. I mean... these guys aren't even Paul O'Neill level, and Paul is a mediocre HOF candidate.


> Palmer - not ready to let him fall off yet

I think Palmer would be a wonderful candidate for the Vet Committee to explore. I think won could find that while he and Fenner were both with the Phills as fulltime starters that there closer in quality than people might think. That said, I don't think it's possible to say that Palmer was *better* or really even, for his career and even peak, Fenner's equal.

Again, I think a great Vet Committe discussion could be over Toby. He's a far better pitcher than Fargo and Haggan. We really need to be advocating *great* candidates, and advocating extreme caution for *not great* candidates. I mean... I'd listen to a good piece on Ray Brown. He's a guy I could be convinced to vote for *now* if someone wants to do the leg work. I'm not even one who plays quid pro vote - I'll vote for Ray if you vote for Jed. Just make a really solid case for him because I generally like what I see in his profile.

Sorry for the long post and rant.


John

[metsgeek]

Originally Posted by Matt from TN

I am still quite peeved that Ahrend Nagel got 100% when IMO all other HOF pitchers (Lopresto, Gindler, Tan, Albertini and Castellon), as well as a few of the guys still on the ballot, were better than him. And the only other player to receive 100% was Murphy, who deserved it. Heck, Will friggin' Miller was inducted the same year as Nagel & had 4000 hits, over 2000 R and 900 SB and got just 88.89% !!

I admitted that Miller was a complete brainfart on my part. He should have gotten 100%, but I honestly thought I had voted for him. Regardless, that shouldn't take away from The Prof. There are intangibles....like CHARISMA

It looks bad that Nagel is actually my ancestor, but Miller wasn't a conscious omission. The 100% issue may depend on the competition on the ballot. I always vote for 10 (and, as seen this year 11 ), but some people regularly vote for only 3 or 4. When the competition is higher, more desrving people get left out. Take a look at some of the actual HOFer's. There are a bunch whose stats don't come close to the players we've voted in, and probably wouldn't be voted in according to modern standards. To name a few: Herb Pennock (3.60 ERA), Rabbit Maranville (.258 Career BA!), Ted Lyons (3.67 ERA, 230 Losses)....They all got in before a number of more desrving players who had to wait for the Veteran's Committee.

Originally Posted by jdw

Mets - you voted for 11. And yeah, I point that out at risk of you dropping off Burke.

Damn, I'm completely screwing this voting thing up, aren't I? I'll drop Graves from this ballot.