What settings keep fakes out of historical?

[rasnell]

What am I doing wrong? I tried importing the 1990 season from Lahman, only adding AAA, and limiting active rosters to 25 players with no reserves or secondary roster.

My goal was to so severely restrict the number of players imported that OOTP 2006 would be forced to bring in only historical players.

I set up an inaugural draft. I turned off auto import historical player creation data and set the player creation modifiers to 0.1 to make sure any fictional players would be too terrible to be drafted.

It didn't work. The import brought in the horrible fakes and the AI stupidly put many on the active roster even when real and much better players were still in the AAA minors.

Has anyone got historical sims to work to their satisfaction or is this thorougly messed up?

Beta testers who defend all your work before release, how did you get this to work on historical simming.

One important note, I dramatically fixed the speed of playing out my games by going into the game setup for play by play speed, choosing custom and setting to 0. What a difference.

[turdfurgeson]

Did you uncheck the box on the set up screen to unable the "auto adjust historical player creation models" in the league set up screen. I know that this threw me for a loop. Once I did this the only time I had a Fictional player infest my league was if they had some high rating like speed. Then they were placed as the "never start" option as a reserve outfielder. And never got into a game.

Edit: Sorry, saw that you have it unchecked.

[Le Grande Orange]

Minor leagues were not intended to be used for historical leagues. That's what the reserve roster is for - it operates as a de facto minor league where your extra or marginal major league players can go, and they will develop there just as if they were playing in a minor league. This method guarantees only actual major leaguers will ever play in your major leagues.

If you insist on having a minor leagues with your historical league, it can be done in such a way as to greatly limit the number of fictional players who might make it to the majors. Tiger Fan, in one of the blogs as well as in a number of posts on the forums, has outlined ways to do this and the settings involved. Trying running a couple of searches to see if you his posts on the subject, or try posting in the OOTPBB 2006: Historical Simulations forum.

[rasnell]

What I remembered reading was to turn off the historical player creation setting and make the player creation so poor that no fakes would make the rosters. It didn't work.

Worse, the AI chose these horrible rated fakes for the active roster and had high-quality real players in the minors.

What I don't understand is with an inaugural draft and keeping the rosters so small, why the Lahman import does not continue the draft of all real players, thus filling the 25-man active roster and whatever is left in AAA?

[turdfurgeson]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Minor leagues were not intended to be used for historical leagues. That's what the reserve roster is for - it operates as a de facto minor league where your extra or marginal major league players can go, and they will develop there just as if they were playing in a minor league. This method guarantees only actual major leaguers will ever play in your major leagues.

If you insist on having a minor leagues with your historical league, it can be done in such a way as to greatly limit the number of fictional players who might make it to the majors. Tiger Fan, in one of the blogs as well as in a number of posts on the forums, has outlined ways to do this and the settings involved. Trying running a couple of searches to see if you his posts on the subject, or try posting in the OOTPBB 2006: Historical Simulations forum.

Thanks LGO. I understand that the historical sim was not intended to have minor leagues, and that the reserve roster is supposed to take the place of this. I also understand that I might be in the minority, but I really miss the ability in the past versions of the game to be able to run an organization with only real players in the minors, regardless of any roster reqirements, and be able to sim even with one guy on the roster. But minor leagues have been a huge part of baseball history, there have not been many players that have not spent some time in the minors, or had to do some sort of rehab there. Plus it is nice to have minor LG history.
What I am trying to do with this game is to replay baseball history from 1901 until modern times, where I will attempt to take over a team and run the organization from minors up to the Big Leagues, and see the young players develop in the minors. I just think it would be awesome to simulate a league from 1901 to create a real, "living" history that i witnessed, to the point where I take over the Mariners (yah, they suck, and after all the effort and work I will probably get fired in 79) and attempt to build them into a respectable organization that includes minors.
From what I can tell, I think the best database for this is Gambo's, because players appear when they first play pro ball, so they should be rated lower and need to play in the minors.
Sorry, this is a little long winded, but I think that there are some people who want to do this also. But even if it is not changed or whatever, the PCM's do help to limit the number of scrubs, and if one makes it through that does not bother me. Just the illegal roster limits.

[Cowboys3356]

This is just another example of how historical gamers were just ignored. How could anyone involved in this project think that some stupid reserve roster would be ok with historical simmers? Historical simmers pay MUCH more attention to detail than ficitional simmers and we MUST have every aspect of the game correct. This sitiuation just gets more frustrating by the moment. Maybe next time around someone with an understanding of what historical simmers want will be included on the beta testing team.

[tcblcommish]

Originally Posted by Cowboys3356

Maybe next time around someone with an understanding of what historical simmers want will be included on the beta testing team.

Boy that would be nice for a change.

[Vida Blue]

Originally Posted by Cowboys3356

This is just another example of how historical gamers were just ignored. How could anyone involved in this project think that some stupid reserve roster would be ok with historical simmers? Historical simmers pay MUCH more attention to detail than ficitional simmers and we MUST have every aspect of the game correct. This sitiuation just gets more frustrating by the moment. Maybe next time around someone with an understanding of what historical simmers want will be included on the beta testing team.

I agree although I haven't had to dick with the league totals at all with this version compared to past versions. Baseball Mogul (here we go), handles teams moving, name changes and expansion ON ITS OWN. Why was this not implemented in OOTP? Historical simmers have always been at the bottom of the list for fixes and changes (been here since OOTP 2). I guess the trade off is that now I can set up a 47 team league in Burkina Faso and simulate real? baseball. Come on!

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by rasnell

What I remembered reading was to turn off the historical player creation setting and make the player creation so poor that no fakes would make the rosters. It didn't work.

Worse, the AI chose these horrible rated fakes for the active roster and had high-quality real players in the minors.

What I don't understand is with an inaugural draft and keeping the rosters so small, why the Lahman import does not continue the draft of all real players, thus filling the 25-man active roster and whatever is left in AAA?

I've been through this a few times. It generally sorts itself out in spring training. As low as you have the creation settings, even the best of the fictional players shouldn't have a chance.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by rasnell

What I remembered reading was to turn off the historical player creation setting and make the player creation so poor that no fakes would make the rosters. It didn't work.

Check the posts again, perhaps you've overlooked another setting or two which helps it work. Tiger Fan did get it working pretty well.

Originally Posted by turdfurgeson

But minor leagues have been a huge part of baseball history, there have not been many players that have not spent some time in the minors, or had to do some sort of rehab there. Plus it is nice to have minor LG history.

The problem is that, speaking strictly historically, the minors were a very different entity for much of their history than they are today. The minors were much more independent and numerous - so how should one go about accounting for that in a historical league setup? Some departures from reality are almost certainly necessary; but how much is acceptable and preferrable? There is no one right answer.

If there was a player database for minor league players, or even just the top level of minors, that would ease the situation tremendously. But the prospects for such a AAA player database are slim at best, so that leaves little choice but to make some compromises in regards to historical leagues with minors.

The game does have to account for 1901 or 1991 in its ability to do historical leagues, and the rather large differences between both the majors and minors in those years adds to the problem.

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by Vida Blue

I guess the trade off is that now I can set up a 47 team league in Burkina Faso and simulate real? baseball. Come on!

No, the tradeoff is now that you can set up a independent Pacific Coast League, an Evangeline League in Louisiana, a Northern League in the midwest US, AND the regular US Majors, and play them all concurrently, have players move between leagues, and track all of their records down to the smallest detail. In other words, just like what really happened in the real past. How does Mogul handle that?

[Wheele8]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Some departures from reality are almost certainly necessary; but how much is acceptable and preferrable? There is no one right answer.

I agree 100%, there are numerous right answers, which makes it that much more alarming when the only option presented in the game is a "wrong" one. Sign me up as another individual who is pretty frustrated with this games inability to provide a pleasurable experience for historical simmers.

[Vida Blue]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

No, the tradeoff is now that you can set up a independent Pacific Coast League, an Evangeline League in Louisiana, a Northern League in the midwest US, AND the regular US Majors, and play them all concurrently, have players move between leagues, and track all of their records down to the smallest detail. In other words, just like what really happened in the real past. How does Mogul handle that?

Actually, Mogul stinks at historical replay to some extent. Anyways, I think the point has been missed. OOTP has boasted accurate historical replay since V2 (as far as I know) and has gotten somewhat better through each version. My point is that sometimes new features get somewhat more attention rather than fixing or improving on the historical aspect of the game. Don't get me wrong, I have and always will support Markus and his endeavors. This being the seventh version, I was hoping for near perfection in this part of the game.

[turdfurgeson]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

The problem is that, speaking strictly historically, the minors were a very different entity for much of their history than they are today. The minors were much more independent and numerous - so how should one go about accounting for that in a historical league setup? Some departures from reality are almost certainly necessary; but how much is acceptable and preferrable? There is no one right answer.

Hey LGO, I understand that having a minor league historical database is pretty much a long shot, and not something I want anyway. Last thing I need is to slow my comp down more. I just wish that there was still the ability to use ghost players in the minors so we do not have to fill them up repeatedly.
I understand that the histroy and importance of the minors have changed over time. That is not the point I am trying to make. The first few years my minors are not affiliated with the majors at all, but with the current set up of the game I have to have them from the beginning if I wish to have them later on.
So it is just annoying when every few years there is a roster problem in the minors, but through some messing around and stuff I have figured out some ways around this.
So, my point is not that I hate the reserve roster idea, becuase it is set up so if I don't want to use it I don't have to.
So I am not criticizing the game, I have had alot of fun messing around with various league set up and rules, I am just concerned after I do the simming to the point in history where I lead the Mariners to greatness, I will have three times as many fake players in all the minors systems slowing things down, and no way to delete all of the free agents with one click of the button.

[redsox45]

Originally Posted by Cowboys3356

This is just another example of how historical gamers were just ignored. How could anyone involved in this project think that some stupid reserve roster would be ok with historical simmers? Historical simmers pay MUCH more attention to detail than ficitional simmers and we MUST have every aspect of the game correct. This sitiuation just gets more frustrating by the moment. Maybe next time around someone with an understanding of what historical simmers want will be included on the beta testing team.

1. There were several very well respected historical simmers on the team who put HOURS upon HOURS of time into testing the game exclusively for historicals.

2. Minor leagues need to have full rosters. While this means that you will have those &)#&$)!&$$@$ fictional players, it also means those *^#_@#*#&$ ghost players are gone. There really is no way of pulling this one off. Believe me, we had many discussions on the topic...

3. No minor league database exists. Find a complete, authentic, all inclusive minor league database that spans the entire history of baseball, at all levels, AND convince the developer to give it to the gaming community and everyone's wishes will be granted. I don't see that happening though.

4. Post your suggestions for how the historicals can be improved in the Tech Support forum and Marc/Markus/beta team will read them and see if they are feasible.

All in all, historicals are leagues ahead of where they were in 6.5. Just imagine what it would be like if you didn't have an option to auto adjust the league modifiers. I'm sure historical simmers would be jumping for joy if that wasn't in there.

Sure, we've got a ways to go. Having automatic expansion would be nice. Having an expansion draft would be cool, but Markus has listened to historical simmers this year, maybe more than he ever has, and the historical aspect of this game has really come to the forefront because of it.

Now, I'll step down off my soapbox...

Will

[Cooleyvol]

RedSox, I'm interested in how much was done in testing online league operation.

It seems little since the import of lineups function is broken out of the box.

[Qrusher14242]

Well we do get some better things with 2006 in regards to historical simming:

-Auto-import database
-Auto-adjust modifiers
-No Free Agency
-Being able to easily move players to different teams is a godsend

We in turn cant do some things or these options were removed:

-Cant have minors without fictionals(doesnt FM have ghost players?? In my Reserve roster in FM, there's greyed out players)
-No ERA settings(before, we could select an era and have the right settings that pertain to the correct ERA)
-Hard to get correct aging down/Players playing for far too long. Also, injuries at Very Low still have too many CEI's. Got to edit it.
-Teams running out of players for no reason(even when they make money and people are available, they dont sign em)
-Pitchers blowing up at age 30, becoming a reliever and retiring early

I hope some of these issues can be fixed, cause i love the sim speed and the new History. But its hard to sim with these issues.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Wheele8

I agree 100%, there are numerous right answers, which makes it that much more alarming when the only option presented in the game is a "wrong" one.

Not if the goal of having zero chance of fictional players in the league is the objective - the reserve roster handles that perfectly.

If folks want to have minor leagues with their historical league for whatever reason, then you're going to have to live with the possibility of a fictional player making the big leagues, though your settings can greatly affect that probability.

Since minor leagues are now fully-fledged leagues rather than somewhat nebulous adjuncts as in previous versions, there isn't a lot of room to maneuver.

But perhaps on the positive side it'll encourage the folks who are fortunate enough to have TSN Guides to begin seriously thinking about converting the minor league stats from them into digital format. I'd be more than happy just to have a AAA player database...

[spark240]

Originally Posted by Cowboys3356

Historical simmers pay MUCH more attention to detail than ficitional simmers...

Not necessarily...

[spark240]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

If folks want to have minor leagues with their historical league for whatever reason, then you're going to have to live with the possibility of a fictional player making the big leagues, though your settings can greatly affect that probability.

What I find strange is that so many "historical" simmers are SO averse to having ANY "fake" players appear in the major leagues...when even the most "accurate" historical sim is, in fact, fictional. That is, even with a perfect starting point, the course of the game will diverge in thousands of ways from actual baseball history. (If it didn't, there would be nothing to "play.") If you can live with a baseball history in which, say, Chapman isn't killed, Ruth stays in Boston, Williams doesn't go to war, and Robinson's career ends with an injury in his second season...well, then, is it really such a big deal if Smedlap gets to pitch thirty games for the Tigers?