I don't understand

[tward13]

I can't blame AP or any mod for being offended by the behavior of a few posters.

Though explained over and over, there's still the "yeah but..." complaining, or "wondering why" they can't get a roster set from someone else when they want it.

It's not even Opening Day yeat, how can anything be an Opening Day set yet?

[evanbarth]

I think there was with spring training rosters to be updated after OD, but I could be wrong.

[DougWyatt]

Originally Posted by APujols5

Will Not happen unless Sega's lawyers give SI the OK. Which isn't going to happen until they are 100% sure they can't be sued by MLB baseball. Other games try it because they are tiny companies that assume the MLB won't waste the time to go after them because there's nothing much to get. While it's different for OOTP, since it's released by SI which is owned by Sega. So we're talking about a multi billion dollar company. So MLB is much more likely to go after them, because there's actually something there to get. Plus as I stated before there's all kinds of ways to get real players into the game without having a current user mod

Originally Posted by rewc27

With your second paragraph you hit the nail right on the head. There are legal and cost issues. There are somethings going on in US courst about the legality of using real rosters, which I really don't know any of the details. I know Markus and SI decided to play it safe and not use MLB rosters. This could change in future versions pending the outcome of the legal battles.

Originally Posted by APujols5

Yea right now MLB actually lost the first go round, but is appealing. For any of you that know the legal system, this will easily be tied down for a couple more years. and Sega has so much more to risk than these small companies that are including real teams and/or rosters with their games. Heck even look at Adam and Arlie over GDS, they are probably small enough to fly under the radar but choose not too.
Speaking of GDS, if anyone complaining about no rosters thinks they have it bad, check out Adam Ryland's Wrestling series, it came out around the first of the year and they are still waiting for a real world mod

I have basic knowledge of the legal system, and no knowledge of the specifics of this case.


That said, I'm very confused.

The MLB LOST the 1st go round ? Doesn't this mean, as it stands RIGHT NOW - that it is Legal for gaming companies to make and sell the rosters ?

What does, "play it safe" mean ? Either it's legal or not RIGHT NOW. I don't think there is a grey area in the law.

And if it is in fact legal RIGHT NOW, than MLB will not be allowed to sue companies in the future (for doing it while it was legal) if it becomes illegal at that point.

On the other hand, if it is illegal. Then, they're not playing it safe, they're just abiding by the law.

[APujols5]

Simple fact, Doug, any company that is including real teams and rosters is violating copyright laws as of this moment. Small companies probably have a better chance of getting away with it though because there's not much chance of getting back the legal fees to sue them

[JHruska]

Originally Posted by DougWyatt

The MLB LOST the 1st go round ? Doesn't this mean, as it stands RIGHT NOW - that it is Legal for gaming companies to make and sell the rosters ?

If I recall correctly, there is an injunction in place forbidding anyone but the one company with the MLB contract from using real rosters, pending the appeal.

[DougWyatt]

Originally Posted by APujols5

Simple fact, Doug, any company that is including real teams and rosters is violating copyright laws as of this moment. Small companies probably have a better chance of getting away with it though because there's not much chance of getting back the legal fees to sue them

Ah, I think I get it. When you said they lost the first round, I thought that meant the laws at the moment were unfavorable to their desired copyrights.

[dougaiton]

Indeed. There are two issues here:

1) Only (whatever company it was who paid for the rights) can use official MLB information with the game. That is not an option for Sega whatsoever, and is flat out illegal.

2) There is a gray area as regards whether statistics are the property of MLB (i.e. the inclusion of the Lahman database, or real stats with fake names). That is what is currently going through the courts (with regards to Fantasy Baseball). If MLB ultimately won the final judgement, then all companies would be liable regardless of what previous un-appealed judgements had been made.

[AC]

Would SI get in hot water if it released the game with "code names." IE Terri Hunter, Johnny Santana, Jacob Giambi, Alan Pujols........

Just curious.

[Claymore]

Originally Posted by AC

Would SI get in hot water if it released the game with "code names." IE Terri Hunter, Johnny Santana, Jacob Giambi, Alan Pujols........

Just curious.

It has been done in the past, but it gets tricky. The player's association may decide to go after them, unless completely fictional names were used, which would be a pain to edit.

[pseudofool]

Originally Posted by Claymore

It has been done in the past, but it gets tricky. The player's association may decide to go after them, unless completely fictional names were used, which would be a pain to edit.

Certainly no harder than making, say, an entire roster. Are the names saved in a separate file? I'm sure someone (not me) could write a program that would rewrite the player names while keeping the player names the same.

[redmarkYankees]

Originally Posted by DougWyatt

Feel free to take your shots there, it'd be nice if everyone stopped messing up the mod sections.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=144016

With all due respect, this is a debate about a mod and some of the people who frequent the mod section need to learn how to conduct a debate. It belongs in the mod section.

FWIW I think the OP initially raises some worthwhile general questions about real roster sets, regardless of the circumstances around this or that specific set and when it is available. As the game becomes more complex, roster sets can be more expansive but therefore take more effort to produce. If SI aren't going to be able to secure a licence to include real rosters, there is a discussion to be had by the game and mod community on the best way to make them available.

That may include better tools from SI, but also the community working on ways of cooperative mod/roster development. Generalising I think across many computer games in the last 2 or 3 years I've seen a move away from collaborative community mod projects towards competitive individual projects (who's first, who gets most downloads). As games get more complex, cooperative efforts should be more - not less - useful.

[Claymore]

Originally Posted by pseudofool

Certainly no harder than making, say, an entire roster.

That would sort of defeat the purpose of shipping with a roster set then...

Originally Posted by pseudofool

Are the names saved in a separate file? I'm sure someone (not me) could write a program that would rewrite the player names while keeping the player names the same.

If they make it too easy to translate they suffer the risk of being sued by the player's association anyways, with the argument that they provided most of the data (i.e. the ratings at the stats), and make it extremely easy to incorporate the names (i.e. add file b + A together).

Personally I think the whole thing is BS, and I suspect the Rotisserie Leaguers will win the the long run, but until the precedent is set, most companies are going to be gun shy.

[redmarkYankees]

Originally Posted by APujols5

The problem with your logic my friend is you're more than welcome to make your own set with the previous version and then convert them. or you can import from Lahman or a another Database. You can also import one of the previous roster sets. or you can even play the game the best way, with fictional teams and players

You're missing his main point - the idea is that collaborative efforts are much more effective. Again, this "do your own" isn't useful.

[redmarkYankees]

Originally Posted by rewc27

Your idea in theory is good, giving the game early to mod makers to do a roster, however, at that point the game will only be in beta. Alot can change during beta and the work that people start may not be good anymore by the time the final version of the game is done.

Basic database design does not usually change during beta. The vast majority of work can be done, with tweaks if necessary due to changes in the engine affecting development/stats etc.

[DiMaggio5CF]

I think that I have found the best way to deal with the late release of the roster sets.

I won't play the game without real rosters. I just can't get into the fictional universes no matter what. I need real rosters to enjoy the game at all.

However, I want the rosters by Opening Day (which, by the way, is now just over 16 hours away). I like to start from the present day and create my own history. I hate replaying history that's already occured, even if it's just a few days. That's also why I never got into historical leagues.

I also hate fictional contracts. I can deal with messed up service times and such, but I need real contracts because that impacts real payroll, which are a big deal.

So, here's my simple formula that led to a simple solution:

------------------

Won't play without real rosters

+

Won't accept real rosters if they're late

=

Don't buy OOTP 2007

------------------

It's not the end of the world. I didn't buy 2006 either, and I didn't miss it one bit. I'm happy with v6.51, where I already have a good solo league that I'm hesitant to end, so it's back to that for me. And I'm happy with that decision. Plus it saves me $35.

[tward13]

Is your solo league now out there in the future where you have - fictional players?

[robster1225]

Originally Posted by DiMaggio5CF

It's not the end of the world. I didn't buy 2006 either, and I didn't miss it one bit. I'm happy with v6.51, where I already have a good solo league that I'm hesitant to end, so it's back to that for me. And I'm happy with that decision. Plus it saves me $35.

I don't play 6.5, but i'm just curious. Is there an opening day, real world roster available for 6.5?

[DougWyatt]

Originally Posted by tward13

Is your solo league now out there in the future where you have - fictional players?

I see where he's coming from though. I find it more enjoyable to start with a base of players I "know" and learn get to know people a little bit at a time as they come up (just as we all do with the MLB) - rather than to have to get to know an entire league from scratch.

[Erik W.]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

P.S. Did I just hear correctly that BigCity was banned? What the hell is going on around here?

No, he wasn't banned at this board. I'm not sure what you're hearing...

[Elendil]

Originally Posted by DiMaggio5CF

I think that I have found the best way to deal with the late release of the roster sets.

I won't play the game without real rosters. I just can't get into the fictional universes no matter what. I need real rosters to enjoy the game at all.

However, I want the rosters by Opening Day (which, by the way, is now just over 16 hours away). I like to start from the present day and create my own history. I hate replaying history that's already occured, even if it's just a few days. That's also why I never got into historical leagues.

I also hate fictional contracts. I can deal with messed up service times and such, but I need real contracts because that impacts real payroll, which are a big deal.

So, here's my simple formula that led to a simple solution:

------------------

Won't play without real rosters

+

Won't accept real rosters if they're late

=

Don't buy OOTP 2007

------------------

It's not the end of the world. I didn't buy 2006 either, and I didn't miss it one bit. I'm happy with v6.51, where I already have a good solo league that I'm hesitant to end, so it's back to that for me. And I'm happy with that decision. Plus it saves me $35.

Originally Posted by robster1225

I don't play 6.5, but i'm just curious. Is there an opening day, real world roster available for 6.5?

Oh, snap!