OOTP and Rosters...A Sad Affair

[mattkma]

Preface - this is not a bashing of any roster maker. Their work is tireless and appreciated. Please keep the flames down!

Here we stand and the beginning of August, a baseball season almost gone with OOTP 2007 and have yet to see a roster set that "functions" in a way that utilizes the very strengths and power of the game. Many will argue, SI as well, that OOTP is a "fictional game." Let's face it, the majority of us buy the game in order to use REAL players. It's just a fact and past versions of the game and the roster sets created attest to that fact.

That brings me to the issue of rosters this year. Somewhere in the rotation of all great things the ball has been dropped. Guys like Cubby who are creating roster sets might as well bang their head against the wall. For every problem they have and fix, there is another problem that arises. I truly do not think a fully function roster set can be a reality with this version of the game. Correct me if I am wrong. I just don't see it working.

So therein lies the issue - it has to be the game. Roster sets have never been this tedious or frustrating in years past. Should tools have been released to roster makers early in the process so that at a reasonable time rosters could have been created and without issue? Is the game created in a way that the current roster making techniques do not work?

I feel bad for everyone who has "waited" and been through all this. I feel for the roster makers who seemingly cannot get over the hump of problems. I feel sorry for SI, this in some way has to hurt...even in the smallest degree. I bought the game as a pre-order....I wish I wouldn't have. It would have been the first version I never purchased. The most promising and possibly best version ever.

Throw your darts I guess.....

Carp

[APujols5]

Here's some of the issues I see with roster making. I will break it into a few different sections based on where I think the problems lie.

Roster Makers
1) We all have lives of our own and don't dedicate 100% of our time to making rosters
2) Myself and Erich are both in our 30's and have work and family priorities that will and must come first
3) Cubby, while not have the family to deal with, does have work and school.

Timetables
1) Erich started his set the earliest, but he's also the one that works the most hours and has the most kids. So his time commitments are the most consuming.
2) Cubby started last but obviously school is his priority but yet he got a solid converted 2006 set out quick as he possibly could
3) Me, I got ticked off and quit working on my rosters all together for the longest time. and Then since starting up again, I have been splitting my efforts in multiple directions. Working on understanding the game better to better the developmental, aging and financial aspects of created rosters

Difficulties caused by the game
1) The only one I have honestly found is not having the ability to edit things like award winners, league and WS champions and etc. This would allow us roster makers to carry over a set from year to year without having to lose valuable information.

2) There are many percieved issues with the game among people that haven't tried to make a roster of their own. Cubby has had a lot of weird little small bugs that come from the way the 2006 roster he used as his base was converted. It's also being said that roster making used to be so much easier and faster. Well this is true. But thankfully Markus has made the game much more in depth and complete. The league history didn't use to be apart of the game so you could easily carry over a roster set from year to year alot easier.
Also there used to be only around a 100 players per team, now with some teams it's almost doubled since OOTP mirrors real minor league baseball now.

I don't really understand why there is still complaints out there. Cubby has a pretty solid playable set out right now. I will be releasing an alternative within the next 20 days or so that will be updated as of both the trade deadline and the August 15 signing deadline. And I know Erich is still slowly working on an OD set still as time allows.

[mattkma]

Somehow I knew the first arrow would come from you.....

[APujols5]

arrow? I am jsut trying to throw out some of the reasons why it's a time consuming project. I personally have put in probably an average of 90 mins or more everyday for the last 2 months. I don't think alot of people kinow what goes into roster making. Just a couple days ago there was a post asking how people make rosters. Plus it sucks to see everyone blaming Markus for everything when there are other reasons behind rosters not coming out fast enough for some people.

[pstrickert]

AP5, that's a fine assessment. It carries some weight, coming as it does from someone with first-hand knowledge of the issues.

[APujols5]

I will repeat one thing for emphasis, the key is getting Markus to make league history editable. Like using my roster work as an example. After this season ends I can easily add in the 2007 player stats. Now if Markus adds the ability for me to be able to go in and edit in league and WS winners, 2007 award winners, I wouldn't have to start with a fresh Lahman import next January. If that was the case, once the stats and history edits wre done all I would need to do is keep up with transactions as the winter progressed. And then you could see rosters releasing on the same day as new OOTP releases came out.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by mattkma

Somehow I knew the first arrow would come from you.....

I'm with AP5 on this, all he did was respond to your post with valid reasons. How that equates to an arrow to you is beyond me.

[APujols5]

Honestly Mattkma doesn't like me because he thinks I was attacking Cubby for pointing out certain problems he was/is having is due to the way he converted the 2006 set.

Which in reality, I was just trying to point Cubby towards the fix. I have learned alot about not only roster making, but the game in general over the last 2 months has I have played with pretty much every option.

[mattkma]

Whatever.

I figured this would digress in to some stupid rants that totally are unrelated to the topic at hand.

[APujols5]

Pot.Kettle.Black

I listed many of the reasons why the roster situation is the way it is and what can be done to fix it hopefully in the future. And then you took it off topic. Did you expect everyone to come in here and just say "Oh Yes it's all Markus's fault?"

And No I am not trying to flame or start some stupid eFight. I just don't get why after I took the time to answer your post in as much honesty and complete way I could/


Trust me, I would be more than happy to help a couple small tweaks come about to make roster making much easier. and I am also willing to discuss the process in general with anyone at anytime. I do feel comfortable discussing this as I have spent alot of time over the last year delving into the entire process.

[mattkma]

Who's fault is it? If the GAME (key word) is causing all the issues then wouldn't it seem obvious that would be where the BLAME lies? I am not trying to degrade Markus (not that I feel the need to be a fan boy either) I think the work on the game is astounding- I am just saying that it is MORE than OBVIOUS that the reason the roster sets are such a mess this year is because the GAME (key word again) is different and has CAUSED these very issues. Not that it is bad - progress on the game is good, however, it HAS caused these very issues. Plain and simple.

[APujols5]

OK, what issues are you talking about? Please list some specifics? Because I am curious to see what is the game's fault.

[APujols5]

Dola,

I also think another key would be to have an official Roster making team
You would need

1) Project coordinator - Would be responsible for Ratings
2) Data Entry Person - Would have the actual file and be responsible for putting together all the different pieces of work
3) Research Department
Things that would need to be researched
Service Times
DOB
Previous stats
4)Graphics Department
Someone doing Pics
Someone doing Logos

You could even have different people responsible for Coaches and Stadiums too

[ashantewarrier]

Thanks Pujols, Cubby for your efforts and thoughts!

[blackrussian]

its been pretty clear for a while that this needs to be addressed by the development team (markus, duffy, etc) since its one of the biggest remaining concerns for keeping current players and bringing in new ones is a working roster set (in a timely way). it speaks a lot to the community to the amount of effort people have put in, past and present, but the situation has become unworkable.

this has been addressed in the beta team to some degree and probably needs to be reinforced again that this is a pretty important issue to many people playing the game. whether SI needs to get their own people to create an official set, or create a utility that will allow 3rd party folks (like erich, AP and cubby) to create reliable rosters and a timely way that doesnt involve weeks of redoing biographical data or tedious approximations of ratings, something needs to be done on the developer side. i dont know what legal/business ramifications they have to consider in terms of issuing "real" roster sets but other games do it at this point, right?

also, since this has been largely a community effort from day 1, we need some definitive directions (again, from developers) on how to properly create roster sets. otherwise, we're all fumbling around in the dark using painstaking trial and error. and despite this community effort, i really believe this process would be better served as an open-source kind of platform so more people can contribute and improve on the set. if we had a specific template to work from, anyone who wanted to contribute could do so easily rather than having to email back and forth, etc. its been pretty disheartening to see a lot of work lost or seriously mired down b/c of real-life commitments from the one person thats spearheading the set. if erich or cubby have work and family duties, like many of us, the data theyre sitting on is nearly useless since no one else can get hold of it. hence the open-platform suggestion; let's make progress.

and if markus, or anyone else, can enlighten us on how to avoid the pitfalls of making a set so that it doesnt keep crashing or have weird bugs like the personnel problems reported recently in the cubby thread, we could actually get something out by opening day.

hopefully this year everyone's hard work will pay off. but for the future, im hoping some of the things i mentioned can be addressed.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

Thanks Pujols, Cubby for your efforts and thoughts!

" "

[APujols5]

As I have already said, We as a community need to convince to Markus to make league history editable. Once that is done, rosters will not have to be started from scratch with every new release.

[mattkma]

Originally Posted by APujols5

As I have already said, We as a community need to convince to Markus to make league history editable. Once that is done, rosters will not have to be started from scratch with every new release.

There ya go - an example of the game being the problem.

[APujols5]

mattkma,

So give us some more. Because I think I can debunk some of the ones I have seen you previously complain about simply as poor planning by people.

And I would hardly consider my example to be a good example of the game being the problem. Remember the History aspect of the game is relatively new, only being around since OOTP 2006.

I have tried to explain to Cubby where alot of his problems have sprung up from. If he's listening? I don't know. But he took so unique steps in converting the work that had been done in 2006 over to 2007 and then he and others have tried to just find work arounds to make things work as best as possible.

I can say without a doubt, it's time consuming to create rosters. There's somewhere in the neighborhood of 100-150players to create for each team after you do a Lahman import. THen tracking down all the bio information on these extra players. Plus fixing up the mistakes from the importing. But in the end, using work that has only been done with a fresh league creation, I have had zero problems with the set I have. I have simmed over 50 times, ranging from short (2-3 Seasons) to long (60+ Seasons). I will be releasing it in the very near future to testers (Once I get some LOL). And it could have been done long ago if I hadn't started, stopped, started again, stopped again and now finally decided to finish it.

Blackrussian,

The pitfalls you mention in Cubby's set are actually pretty easily traced back to the way the 2006 set was converted, then all the dat file tweaking that has been done to try and work around some of the initial problems. Has I try explaining to mattkma above, I have had zero issues with my set in testing. But then again mine is also a clean build from scratch, not converted work.

[chimanbj]

Personally, I love the work that Cubby and APujols do! They create a great base from which I can work. When the rosters come out, I'm not looking for perfection. If the rosters are reasonably right (and this year's roster from Cubby is incredibly deep) then I'm happy! For my money (did I mention that no one is paying for these rosters?) this is all I need. From there I can build my Cubs dynasty; bring Julio Franco back from being retired and make him a stud, at 47 (my goal is to keep him playing into his 50's); retool the Cubs so that they truly have the deepest pitching staff in all of baseball, and finally win back-to-back World Series championships!

Of course, that can't happen with a roster set right out of the box, because the Cubs just aren't built that way. But in a lot of ways, things even out quite nicely. The Cubs fought through September for a shot at the playoffs, and missed it by one game, finishing up with a 82-80 record, one game out of first (weak division!) So, that's fairly true to life!

I think, that if you haven't tried making a roster (even just the MLB level alone), it's not justified to complain about how hard it is to make a roster. Being a programmer IRL, I know it can be very difficult to get everything in balance. And no matter how hard you try, someone will find fault somewhere, especially when it comes to something as subjective as ratings.

Lighten up. It's a game. You didn't pay thousands of dollars for it. You didn't even pay $100 for it. Relax. Make the game your own! I certainly have!