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Old 04-16-2003, 02:55 PM   #1
Folderol
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A little reality check.... :)

I guess this kind of post needs to be put out there periodically, and this time it's my turn:

For as many posts as I see slamming the AI, the financial engine, the graphics, etc, etc, ......let me just point out a few frequently overlooked facts:

With OOTP 5.10, we have on our computers what I would argue is THE best baseball sim ever created. IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD!!! <---(said for dramatic effect, but you get my point).

Do you realize that, comparatively speaking, while every other game ever created had major flaws that affected game play enjoyment and, ultimately, game shelf life...we are fortunate enough to enjoy a game that not only get's it right a high percentage of the time, but LISTENS to the consumers, STRIVES CONSTANTLY to improve it's product and does not settle for mediocrity.

Do you remember how excited you were back in the day when a new baseball game came along that captured the real life baseball experience a little better than its predecessors? Sports Illustrated Statis Pro Baseball; Nintendo All Stars; Earl Weaver II...each got us just a little closer...but in retrospect - these games were just cave dwelling paintings compared to OOTP.

OOTP costs around 30 bucks. I would gladly pay triple that (don't read this Markus!) for the amount of UNENDING enjoyment that I derive from this game. I mean, what other game, IN MY LIFE, have I played thousands and thousands of times? I have played almost every single game out in career leagues since OOTP3 and I am still drawn to that little baseball icon on my desktop every time I sit down; got work to do? How about playing out a three-game homestand first? Don't you think you should go to bed? Can't - the new OOTP5.x patch is going to be posted in a half hour!

This is my thank you to the development team. It's the best game I've ever played, and it just keeps getting better. Thank you!!!!

A PS:

Much like a democracy, I do believe pointing out a games (or a countrys) shortcomings is the best way to improve the game (or country). I am not against pointing out bugs, errors, discrepancies in the game. I just think we all need a little perspective now and again.

Where we used to delete a program from our computers in frustration, we are now only having to pick nits.

Disclaimer: the above is not a "fanboy" post. It's an honest statement, as I see it, about the best sports sim ever created.

..so there.

Folderol!
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Old 04-16-2003, 03:07 PM   #2
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Fanboy.



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Old 04-16-2003, 03:12 PM   #3
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I like legos.
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Old 04-16-2003, 03:23 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by darkhorse
It's a good game. It's needs to get better.
Presisely. None of us doubt how good OOTP is. But we're also well aware of Markus's abilities, and it's better for everyone if we collectively TRY to make the game better through ideas and pointing out what we deem to be flaws so that Markus can make what already is the best game even better.
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Old 04-16-2003, 03:24 PM   #5
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Positive feedback comes from sales figures.

Improvements to the game to increase sales figures comes from picking nits.
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Old 04-16-2003, 03:40 PM   #6
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attention Folderol,
the beta testing team is currently full. sorry.

the management
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IMO we are best off abandoning that sinking ship that is Off Topic to the rats infesting it and just starting a whole new Baseball Forum from scratch.
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Old 04-16-2003, 03:44 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Draft Dodger
attention Folderol,
the beta testing team is currently full. sorry.

the management
Now THATS funny! (gee, is that how you get to be one??)


Folderol! (not a fanboy)
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Old 04-16-2003, 03:58 PM   #8
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Dear Markus & Steve,
You guys are terrific, I love the response time, the game is a remarkable piece of work, if you are ever in the Napa Valley area you are invited to stop by for a few days ( the guest room is comfy, if small ).

That being said, please remember that criticism of the game, functions in the game, or results produced by the game are NOT personal. It is hoped devoutly that all game-related commentary, however flippant, is taken in the spirit of trying to make the end product as perfect as possible. No other motive, aside from idle minds wreaking havoc for personal amusement, should be ascribed to any of my postings.

And no, you rapacious weasels, I am not a Fan of Boy.
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Old 04-16-2003, 04:06 PM   #9
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I think alot of the problem is many people take someone having a problem with the game as taking it they have a problem with Markus, Steve and the rest of the team.

If they didn't do such a great job adressing complaints or problems, I doubt you would see so many because less people would buy the game. (Catch 22 eh?)

I certainly applaud the .400 crew and could never handle answering the same questions day after day like Steve does without flame. I just think some people in here are more protective against criticism of the game than the .400 staff is.
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Old 04-16-2003, 04:13 PM   #10
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We are all here because we like OOTP... (or are really bored at work ).

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Old 04-16-2003, 04:26 PM   #11
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I'm going to add something here... partially to vent some frustration and partially to once again explain something I feel is continuosly ignored - specifically about the trading function....

Unfortunately we each have a different "view" of a "fair trade". The nature of the beast (as Steve has put it) is what makes trading so funin real life. There's always one side that thinks they got a deal and one side that thinks they got ripped. VERY few trades are ever made where BOTH sides are happy. Example - Before and after this last patch....

The prior trading method was more or less based on ratings.... everyone complained that real stats should be considered. The new method now uses ratings AND stats and the complaints say stats count for too much. My guess is if Markus makes yet another "tweak" some will be happy - others will not. Since we define a "good trade" differently, there no perfect solution.

If I were Markus (and I'm not) I would make stats and ratings count about 50-50 with the other variables (age, salary, etc. )included to some percentage as well, and leave it at that. At least the trade would be even "mathematically" and Markus could go on to different things.

I my eyes, no sense spending ALL your time on a function that has no perfect answer.....

Henry
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Old 04-16-2003, 04:32 PM   #12
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I'm still waiting for "Virtual Reality OOTP Baseball" to be released. Markus - can you do this? Just kiddin


Yesterday, when I was reading up on Rolen's profile in the OOTP Newsletter, I noticed that a game called "Inside The Park Baseball" was coming out. Maybe this is my long-awaited virtual reality game?


But in all seriousness, Folderol's comments are quite warranted and valid. The one thing I like about this game is the community that has been created right here in this forum. The support for everyone is 2nd to none!


PS - I agree on the whole trade-thing too, Henry!
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Old 04-16-2003, 10:37 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henry
I'm going to add something here... partially to vent some frustration and partially to once again explain something I feel is continuosly ignored - specifically about the trading function....

Unfortunately we each have a different "view" of a "fair trade". The nature of the beast (as Steve has put it) is what makes trading so funin real life. There's always one side that thinks they got a deal and one side that thinks they got ripped. VERY few trades are ever made where BOTH sides are happy. Example - Before and after this last patch....

The prior trading method was more or less based on ratings.... everyone complained that real stats should be considered. The new method now uses ratings AND stats and the complaints say stats count for too much. My guess is if Markus makes yet another "tweak" some will be happy - others will not. Since we define a "good trade" differently, there no perfect solution.

If I were Markus (and I'm not) I would make stats and ratings count about 50-50 with the other variables (age, salary, etc. )included to some percentage as well, and leave it at that. At least the trade would be even "mathematically" and Markus could go on to different things.

I my eyes, no sense spending ALL your time on a function that has no perfect answer.....

Henry

How about different patches with the only difference in them being the trading. I'd love to have the 5.01 trades back, with the 5.10 format.

Or a setting to have the AI look at ratings/ratings and stats/stats only.

I just don't want any part of picking through awful deals trying to pick the one that is 'fair' for the AI.
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Old 04-16-2003, 10:41 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by lynchjm24
How about different patches with the only difference in them being the trading. I'd love to have the 5.01 trades back, with the 5.10 format.

Or a setting to have the AI look at ratings/ratings and stats/stats only.

I just don't want any part of picking through awful deals trying to pick the one that is 'fair' for the AI.
I'll see if something like that is possible once Markus gets back.
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Old 04-17-2003, 12:49 AM   #15
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First, why do these threads always come back to trading?

Second, since someone up there brought this up, I have to comment on this statement...
Quote:
There's always one side that thinks they got a deal and one side that thinks they got ripped. VERY few trades are ever made where BOTH sides are happy
This might be true years after the trade but this would never be true at the time the negotiations are completed. For a deal to get done, both parties have to be agreeable to the terms.
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Old 04-17-2003, 01:30 AM   #16
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I've mentioned a few times that I feel trading is the most subjective part of the program. Also, I like very little trading and always have the trade frequency set to low. If I run a team in a league I very rarely make trades and when acting as the league commish I like very little player movement. I'm curious if there are other players out there that don't use the trade feature much and are not really concerned with the trade AI one way or the other. I realize I'm in the minority here but I'm just providing another take on the trade issue. Take care everyone
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Old 04-17-2003, 01:39 AM   #17
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I'm in your camp Dargone. I set trading to low. I limit myself to concocting one trade per season, with stringent house rules. Besides that one trade, I only allow myself to take deals exactly as offered by the CPU. I find this still provides enough creative opportunities to craft my team.

I wish that other weaknesses in the AI would get some of the attention, especially from the developers, that has been devoted to trading. The bottom line with trading is its up to you whether you abuse it. Other CPU flaws aren't as easy to avoid.
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Old 04-17-2003, 01:47 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by lynchjm24
How about different patches with the only difference in them being the trading. I'd love to have the 5.01 trades back, with the 5.10 format.

Or a setting to have the AI look at ratings/ratings and stats/stats only.

I just don't want any part of picking through awful deals trying to pick the one that is 'fair' for the AI.
I couldn't agree more.

To me, trading is an integral part of the experience of playing the game. I liked the balance of the original AI in 5.0, but it was very clunky and tedious to go through potential options to find where your best trade might lie. With the new setup, the tedium would be gone, and that original AI would work great. I'd be a happy man with that combination of what's already been released.

-Spielman
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Old 04-17-2003, 01:57 AM   #19
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Im with Dargone, I don't use the trade AI at all when I play so isn't a big issue to me.

I guess I would use it if the AI was solid and I wouldnt feel like I was cheating if I ever made a trade with them. Id more prefer the AI overvalue their players than undervalue them. Would add to the challenge and if you needed to fill a hole, you would have to pay up to do it.

If I had a vote, which Im sure I never will , it would be to make the AI overvalue their players to human teams, make dealing with them very difficult and only desireable if you had a hole you needed filled, and were willing to pay up to do it.

If not, Id say scrap it because Im sure Markus has invested alot of time in it and it just doesn't seem to be paying off yet.
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Old 04-17-2003, 09:08 AM   #20
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Since this thread has turned into yet another trade AI thread, I might as well chime in here.

I've been trying to get my view out there that it's not so much the ease or hardness of doing trades that's an issue, but the appropriateness (is that a word?).

Basically, teams in specific situations should be looking to do specific things through trades. A team that's 40 games out of first shouldn't be trading for a 36-year-old $10M Cy Young candidate with one year left on his contract. If anything, they should be trading a player like that away.

So getting the player I just mentioned from a last place team should be quite possible if you're willing to give up young talent, while getting him from a first place team should be nearly impossible.

The idea is to make the trade AI more logical. I think if that is done, then people on both sides of the hard-easy debate would be a little happier, even if there's no pleasing everyone.

Yes, this is the greatest sports sim game ever made. I love it and play it way more than I probably should. I spend far too much time on this board because of how great the game is. Every criticism I make is with the intent of getting the game to be better. Markus, Steve, and the rest have done an amazing job and I look forward to what OOTP will offer in the coming years.
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