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Old 05-21-2019, 09:30 AM   #21
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It seems like a lot of work for a marginal gain. I just can't see where the fun is in having a team win for 4 days but then lose for 2 days with the hope you don't make the playoff all for a few more pp. I kind of wish they would do away with PP and just make the game only packs with packs given for achievements. It would force managers to adjust their teams and ballparks based on pulls and may eliminate some of the cookie cutter teams we see now.

So would you eliminate the auction house or have PP come from real money only?
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:32 AM   #22
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As for tanking, it's impossible to catch. The reported one are reported because they are tanking like Sam Hinkie's 76ers -- way too obvious. The more subtle tankers can easily tank in a legal way. Fielding a roster that can perform around .480 to .510 for eternity is perfectly fine, but can also be used with the intention of staying and grinding the same level for a long time.
If someone wants to do that though then I don't see why it's a problem. To all the other players it's just a team in their league playing close to .500; no one is harmed by that. "Tanking" to me implies intentionally relegating yourself with a team that is far below the quality of other teams, and people have a problem with it because the disproportionate amount of PP and free wins they give away heavily skews their league for that week.
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Old 05-21-2019, 09:35 AM   #23
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Maybe there should be a stickied thread to contain all tanking/promotion/rewards/meta game structure discussion because it seems like we eventually reach this point in half the threads here.
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:39 AM   #24
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Maybe there should be a stickied thread to contain all tanking/promotion/rewards/meta game structure discussion because it seems like we eventually reach this point in half the threads here.
We haven't yet had the crusade for clear definitions of tanking/losing. Queue up Dogberry in 10... 9... 8...
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:41 AM   #25
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It seems like a lot of work for a marginal gain. I just can't see where the fun is in having a team win for 4 days but then lose for 2 days with the hope you don't make the playoff all for a few more pp. I kind of wish they would do away with PP and just make the game only packs with packs given for achievements. It would force managers to adjust their teams and ballparks based on pulls and may eliminate some of the cookie cutter teams we see now.

I like your proposal but I can understand the not-so-good profitability from that setup(unless the whales all go hardcore deep in packs, then I take back the "not-so-good profitability"). Even if whales go hardcore on packs, the others are now stuck without the AH to acquire players. I am not sure if people liked the theortically slower progress and a much harsher environment for anyone who wants to play with a theme team -- you either open everything you need to die trying.


I do, however, wonders if there's enough interest for some sort of draft mode for the players who enjoy playing with what they opened. I might write a detailed suggestion down the line.


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If someone wants to do that though then I don't see why it's a problem. To all the other players it's just a team in their league playing close to .500; no one is harmed by that. "Tanking" to me implies intentionally relegating yourself with a team that is far below the quality of other teams, and people have a problem with it because the disproportionate amount of PP and free wins they give away heavily skews their league for that week.
Fair take. Aside from the intentional relegation you said, I think someone (who is leading the conference) intentionally harming its team record by substituting bad players at the tail end of the season is also a a kind of tanking. Other than that two, I am cool.
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Old 05-21-2019, 10:53 AM   #26
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I do, however, wonders if there's enough interest for some sort of draft mode for the players who enjoy playing with what they opened. I might write a detailed suggestion down the line.
A draft mode tournament would be very fun and interesting down the line.
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:02 AM   #27
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The easiest thing to do would to just put a modifier on all achievements based on the league. I probably wouldn't give any increase at Iron, Bronze, and maybe Silver. At Gold, Diamond, and Perfect, I think something like 133%, 166%, and 200% respectively would be enough to incentivize players to compete as hard as they can. The main issue with giving away PP is it stops some people from ever buying packs. That's much less an issue at the higher levels though. Still, this is just the easiest solution to implement, it might not be the most fun.

I like this solution a lot and it came to mind to me too.


The only problem I see with it though is when you get promoted to Gold and above is that teams who have been hanging around there a while have had more time to earn even more PP and will be even stiffer competition for the newly promoted. Increasing the number of teams promoted and relegated might help that thought.
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:04 AM   #28
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Fair take. Aside from the intentional relegation you said, I think someone (who is leading the conference) intentionally harming its team record by substituting bad players at the tail end of the season is also a a kind of tanking. Other than that two, I am cool.
To me it all depends on the degree. Something extreme like an 80-20 team putting in all irons in order to finish 85-77 is a problem and just silly. A 60-40 team though playing a few below average cards to finish 85-77 just gets a "whatever" from me since I don't see how that is harming the game for other players. A team playing .600 then .400 for two months isn't disproportionately bleeding PP like playing .800 then .100 does which is the concern people bring up with regards to tanking.
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:06 AM   #29
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I like this solution a lot and it came to mind to me too.


The only problem I see with it though is when you get promoted to Gold and above is that teams who have been hanging around there a while have had more time to earn even more PP and will be even stiffer competition for the newly promoted. Increasing the number of teams promoted and relegated might help that thought.
A team good enough to get promoted is still going to earn more achievements per season at bronze/silver than a team that is simply hanging around at gold, even if theirs come with a 33% boost. Obviously someone who has been playing the game for a longer period of time will have earned more points than a new player but that is kinda by design.

IMO the aspect that needs to be addressed is all the players who aren't high level whales who don't want to be promoted because of the negative impact it has on their PP income and future ability to improve their team, aka "getting stuck". That to me is a serious issue when thinking about the long term health of the game mode. I know developers are keeping an eye on what people are saying and thinking about ways to improve. Maybe they've concluded that every system will have some drawback to it and they are satisfied overall with how it is currently working so a change isn't necessary, which is certainly their right to do.

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Old 05-21-2019, 11:35 AM   #30
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A team good enough to get promoted is still going to earn more achievements per season at bronze/silver than a team that is simply hanging around at gold, even if theirs come with a 33% boost. Obviously someone who has been playing the game for a longer period of time will have earned more points than a new player but that is kinda by design.

IMO the aspect that needs to be addressed is all the players who aren't high level whales who don't want to be promoted because of the negative impact it has on their PP income and future ability to improve their team, aka "getting stuck". That to me is a serious issue when thinking about the long term health of the game mode. I know developers are keeping an eye on what people are saying and thinking about ways to improve. Maybe they've concluded that every system will have some drawback to it and they are satisfied overall with how it is currently working so a change isn't necessary, which is certainly their right to do.

Yeah that's my situation. I've put a few bucks into the game but not a ton and I don't want to put in too much more. My teams have been doing decent but as they get promoted into diamond, I fear they will get stuck. Already happening to my Giants Negro League theme team that just got promoted to diamond.


My plan with my other two Gold teams is to try a different approach as they get promoted into diamond. I'm already retooling my Bees to be more high contact, high gap, avoid K, pitching, and defense - we'll see how it works.



My Thieves are finally looking decent, but if they get promoted and stuck, I may retool around a theme like all Senators/Twins or all Braves/Brewers, something like that, just for fun.


And therein lies the rub. When you go theme you may have to go with much lower level cards because you lack flexibility. My Giants are almost out of options in terms of cards I can afford, so there are a lot of silver cards in the lineup. Theme teams are perfectly acceptable in the community - you are not tanking per se. But it's harder to build a competitive team.
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Old 05-21-2019, 11:35 AM   #31
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Ultimately, it seems to me there are basically two types of PT players; 1) those intent at winning at almost any cost, and 2) those that are limited (by choice or circumstances) in resources - BUT - still want a competitive game.

Group 1 spends money, time, analysis, etc. to drive to the top and then takes enjoyment in forever wins (Can I do better than 148 wins?).

Group 2 puts everything except money in the game and either manages to get to Perfect and spends their days being the punching bag of Group 1 teams - OR - finds a level they can compete, maybe moving up and down a couple levels as one season is better than another.

If the outcome description of Group 2 above gave you the option of finding a comfortable place all the time, I would agree that nothing needs to be done - BUT - what usually happens is teams rise to their level of incompetence ("Peter's Principle") and then, any attempt to deflate your team to get back to even competition is seen as "suspect" because a few teams might make a few extra points on your planned demotion.

In my opinion, I honestly think only the most obvious "tanking" scenarios should be punished - and to be honest - I think the Devs feel the same way. Ultimately, they have to maintain the customer base, and banning people who are only trying to enjoy the game isn't a good business model.

What should be done, however, is some kind of adjustment that better sorts teams into competitive leagues. We all have offered some ideas, but the Devs have to decide what works best with their goals. I only hope they at least TRY to even things up so as to keep as many of us involved over time as possible.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:08 PM   #32
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Ultimately, it seems to me there are basically two types of PT players; 1) those intent at winning at almost any cost, and 2) those that are limited (by choice or circumstances) in resources - BUT - still want a competitive game.

Group 1 spends money, time, analysis, etc. to drive to the top and then takes enjoyment in forever wins (Can I do better than 148 wins?).

Group 2 puts everything except money in the game and either manages to get to Perfect and spends their days being the punching bag of Group 1 teams - OR - finds a level they can compete, maybe moving up and down a couple levels as one season is better than another.
I'm in group 3. Those who enjoy the players and the stats they produce and think winning is a fleeting momentary high that nobody remembers an hour after it happens.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:16 PM   #33
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I'm in group 3. Those who enjoy the players and the stats they produce and think winning is a fleeting momentary high that nobody remembers an hour after it happens.
Yep, there is a group 3 that just enjoys the game for what it is. As always, those people are largely ignored and considered to be a small minority because they don't make nearly as much noise.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:39 PM   #34
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I like your proposal but I can understand the not-so-good profitability from that setup(unless the whales all go hardcore deep in packs, then I take back the "not-so-good profitability"). Even if whales go hardcore on packs, the others are now stuck without the AH to acquire players. I am not sure if people liked the theortically slower progress and a much harsher environment for anyone who wants to play with a theme team -- you either open everything you need to die trying.


I do, however, wonders if there's enough interest for some sort of draft mode for the players who enjoy playing with what they opened. I might write a detailed suggestion down the line.




Fair take. Aside from the intentional relegation you said, I think someone (who is leading the conference) intentionally harming its team record by substituting bad players at the tail end of the season is also a a kind of tanking. Other than that two, I am cool.

The purpose of this thread was to discuss such a team. Only removing pitchers with a month to go while maintaining elite hitting for PP purposes, having 4 of the top 5 RBI hitters, and missing the playoffs by 1 game, to simply insert 2 perfect, 2 diamond, and a gold starter to rinse repeat the following season. This is in silver by the way.
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Old 05-21-2019, 12:53 PM   #35
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To me it all depends on the degree. Something extreme like an 80-20 team putting in all irons in order to finish 85-77 is a problem and just silly. A 60-40 team though playing a few below average cards to finish 85-77 just gets a "whatever" from me since I don't see how that is harming the game for other players. A team playing .600 then .400 for two months isn't disproportionately bleeding PP like playing .800 then .100 does which is the concern people bring up with regards to tanking.

Why would a .600 team purposely lose any momentum at all? That's good enough for the playoffs and possible promotion in every league I've been in, even iron. The only answer is so they can stay in a lower league and beat up on teams getting single game achievements for 4/5 of the season only to rinse/repeat until they have all perfects and diamonds and then they feel comfortable enough to try and actually win. It all ends up being opinion in the end.


For the record, mine is that anyone who plays competitive enough to make the playoffs only to sit their pitchers so they can "appear" to have a weak team and try to hide the fact they are tanking the last month of the season so as to not make the playoffs with the intention of earning tons of single-game PP is just about the worst kind of cheater. And IMO, worse than someone who blatantly tanks for a whole season. The reason I think this way? Because the blatant tanker gets relegated and doesn't hover in the same league killing the same teams over and over while absolutely destroying the league they are in making it harder for legitimate players to work their way up. The other teams are essentially stuck with that player. Whereas the start-finish tanker plays a group of people only to play a different group the following season.


They're both bad, but "hover tanking" is a lowlife, insidious move. "Oh, I might make the playoffs and earn less PP next year. Let me tank the last month, tipping the balance of the playoff race in favor of whoever is lucky enough to play me more in the last month than the previous 5..."


Is it really debateable that's a scumbag move? Training is fine if it's a lost season. We've all done it I'm sure. But a person deciding they aren't ready to be promoted even though they have the roster to do so is low. Sorry I'm sure I repeated myself in there. Apologies. I'm frustrated because this directly affected my chances for promotion in the season it related to. And the fact it was a member of these boards who isn't the nicest person in here either just made it worse somehow.
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Old 05-21-2019, 01:15 PM   #36
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Yep, there is a group 3 that just enjoys the game for what it is. As always, those people are largely ignored and considered to be a small minority because they don't make nearly as much noise.
If "noise" is what you hear, then "discussion" isn't your forte.
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Old 05-21-2019, 01:34 PM   #37
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If "noise" is what you hear, then "beating a dead horse" isn't your forte.
Fixed!
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Old 05-21-2019, 02:20 PM   #38
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I guess I don't see the issue. A group of customers is upset about part of the game and they're voicing that concern. I would think part of the reason for the board is to do exactly that as long as we keep the conversation civil.

If you really don't like the continued conversation, no one is forcing anyone to read it.
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Old 05-21-2019, 02:45 PM   #39
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Looking at the issue in this thread specifically, most people just don't like the lack of clarity. What some people see as report-worthy cheating others see as just playing with their own team how they want to. The conversation keeps happening because there is never a final word. Maybe the fact we haven't heard anything is the final word and development is happy just letting people play how they want unless something gets very far over the line, after all you don't want to kick out your customers.
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Old 05-21-2019, 02:46 PM   #40
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I must be a group 4 then - spends money, time, analysis, but is kind of just holding out for tournaments because the league system isn't well built.

The main reason I think the league system isn't well built is that at its pinnacle (competitive Perfect teams), the leagues are a solved game. There is a best starting 5, best catcher, best shortstop, etc. The best teams are all going to look pretty similar, which is incredibly boring. If you want to build something different (and we almost all do because we get excited about a team idea or just can't afford a rotation that costs 1.5M PP), that's great! You just aren't incentivized to do so and if you do it really well and get a scrappy team to Perfect then you'll just spend most weeks whale watching.

The related, but lesser, reason I think the leagues aren't well built is the lack of awards for putting money, time, and analysis into doing well in the leagues.

Tangentially, I really don't think the tanking the OP describes is scummy. Nobody is getting rich off tanking. The PP awards are so small compared to what it takes to build a team that can tank in the first place that I assume people are doing it more out of frustration that there is no reason for them to seek promotion than some sinister calculus to cheat the system. The team the OP describes sounds fairly expensive - too expensive to have been built by averaging a few extra PP a week from avoiding the playoffs.
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