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Old 04-03-2018, 01:19 AM   #1
andyhdz
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Can't update new ethnicities in quick start or existing leagues

So I added a couple of new namesets and followed the instructions and updated both the world.xml file to add the new ethnicities and added them to the names and last names file and reimported everything back to my existing league and the new ethnicities did not show up as a choice when I went to update the country. I loaded up the 2018 quickstart and nothing. Then I created a custom league and that worked. I hope they fix ther reload world.xml file script to reflect new ethnicities.

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Old 04-04-2018, 02:31 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by andyhdz View Post
So I added a couple of new namesets and followed the instructions and updated both the world.xml file to add the new ethnicities and added them to the names and last names file and reimported everything back to my existing league and the new ethnicities did not show up as a choice when I went to update the country. I loaded up the 2018 quickstart and nothing. Then I created a custom league and that worked. I hope they fix ther reload world.xml file script to reflect new ethnicities.
I started threads on this very topic in both the main forum and the bug report forum. The silence was deafening.

Hey, at least you figured out the workaround quickly. It took me two whole days of breaking my teeth on the non-working re-import feature and unsuccessfully messing around with the dat files (BTW...never mess with those) before it finally occurred to me to look in a simpler direction.

Sorry to say, but the current state of the re-import names/ethnicities feature makes performing any type of fictional historical sim, historical sim with fictional elements, or any type of simulation where names and ethnicities evolve or change over time impossible. After all, immersion is everything in an historical simulation. Being stuck in a static environment where the names and people will never change as they did and continue to do IRL kills that immersion dead in its tracks.
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Old 04-04-2018, 05:37 PM   #3
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Thanks for confirming the issue. Another bigger problem is that I'm not sure the old workaround of overwriting the names of an existing ethnicity with a new one would work anymore because of the ethnicity file. Say for instance I decided to overwrite the Romanian ethnicity to use Cuban names. I reimport the last names and names files with the Cuban names instead of Romanian and switch the Cuban nation to use Romanian names in OOTP. Sure I now get Cuban names but they will probably be all white Cubans. The ethnicity file to change Romanians skin color ratio is not a stand alone file anymore and is part of the world.xml file that doesn't get updated to existing leagues when you re-import the world.xml file.
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Old 04-04-2018, 07:40 PM   #4
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Thanks for confirming the issue. Another bigger problem is that I'm not sure the old workaround of overwriting the names of an existing ethnicity with a new one would work anymore because of the ethnicity file. Say for instance I decided to overwrite the Romanian ethnicity to use Cuban names. I reimport the last names and names files with the Cuban names instead of Romanian and switch the Cuban nation to use Romanian names in OOTP. Sure I now get Cuban names but they will probably be all white Cubans. The ethnicity file to change Romanians skin color ratio is not a stand alone file anymore and is part of the world.xml file that doesn't get updated to existing leagues when you re-import the world.xml file.
I can confirm that the old method of replacing ethnicities/names does not work in this version either for precisely the reason you stated. When I discovered the re-import function wasn't working that was the first thing I tried, so we can't even do that anymore.

I guess it's a classic good news/bad news situation with the game's new method of handling names/ethnicities. The good news is that we finally have the ability to add as many name sets and ethnicities to the game as we want. The bad news is that until the re-import function is fixed, this ability is severely limited if not stunted entirely.

I'm genuinely surprised that more players haven't come forward with regards to this problem, especially any historical/historical-fictional simmers who prefer use Questdog's names mod.
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Old 04-04-2018, 09:23 PM   #5
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Well, as someone who has contributed a few name mods, this is discouraging. I hope the developers are working on this and fixing it. I get the sense that shifting ethnicities to the xml file might have been one of those things that wasn't thoroughly tested, like the introduction of historical minors a couple of versions ago.

Anyway, since there's now no limit to the number of ethnicities you can have, I suppose you can avoid the problem by having a comprehensive list of ethnicities in the xml file to start with. That way, any changes that you make down the line would be made in the in-game nation editor, which I presume still works. Of course, that also means you need to get that comprehensive list of ethnicities to begin with, and you have to make sure you get it right the first time.

Oh well, two steps forward, one back... that's still progress, right?

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Old 04-04-2018, 09:36 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Caporegime View Post
I can confirm that the old method of replacing ethnicities/names does not work in this version either for precisely the reason you stated. When I discovered the re-import function wasn't working that was the first thing I tried, so we can't even do that anymore.

I guess it's a classic good news/bad news situation with the game's new method of handling names/ethnicities. The good news is that we finally have the ability to add as many name sets and ethnicities to the game as we want. The bad news is that until the re-import function is fixed, this ability is severely limited if not stunted entirely.

I'm genuinely surprised that more players haven't come forward with regards to this problem, especially any historical/historical-fictional simmers who prefer use Questdog's names mod.
I think the reason more players aren't mentioning it is that it just doesn't seem like an issue in most situations, IMO. I certainly wouldn't call the new feature "severely limited or stunted entirely."

First of all, what do you mean by "historical-fictional"? Because I play a version of that, using real teams but fictional players, and I'm not having any problems--I've added a bunch of new namesets, and they're all showing up just fine. I also tried to create a historical league (MLB, 1977) just as a test, and again, all the new namesets appeared.

The key is, tho, that they only work in newly-created leagues. That's when the game reads everything from the world_default file and sets things up. It's only with the MLB quickstart file that I think you would need to re-import... or if you have a pre-existing game that you want to apply changes to. Otherwise it seems to be working fine, which I think explains the lack of complaints.
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Old 04-04-2018, 11:23 PM   #7
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Well, as someone who has contributed a few name mods, this is discouraging. I hope the developers are working on this and fixing it. I get the sense that shifting ethnicities to the xml file might have been one of those things that wasn't thoroughly tested, like the introduction of historical minors a couple of versions ago.

Anyway, since there's now no limit to the number of ethnicities you can have, I suppose you can avoid the problem by having a comprehensive list of ethnicities in the xml file to start with. That way, any changes that you make down the line would be made in the in-game nation editor, which I presume still works. Of course, that also means you need to get that comprehensive list of ethnicities to begin with, and you have to make sure you get it right the first time.

Oh well, two steps forward, one back... that's still progress, right?
Maybe a note to those said developers is warranted?
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Old 04-05-2018, 01:31 AM   #8
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Anyway, since there's now no limit to the number of ethnicities you can have, I suppose you can avoid the problem by having a comprehensive list of ethnicities in the xml file to start with. That way, any changes that you make down the line would be made in the in-game nation editor, which I presume still works. Of course, that also means you need to get that comprehensive list of ethnicities to begin with, and you have to make sure you get it right the first time.
This is exactly how I do it, and honestly, I think it makes the most sense. For the US, I have 9 separate namesets, each with their own unique, permanent ethnicity ID (1870-1909, 1910-1929, 1930-1949, 1950-1969, 1970-1995, 1996-present, Negro Leagues, African American 1970-1999, African American 2000-present). When it comes time to transition from one set to the next, I just go into the nation editor and change the drop-down. Not only does it work, but it's quick and simple, too.

I've actually been doing it this way for several versions now. The only difference this year is that I don't have to sacrifice something like Polynesian to get my new namesets in, and I can give them all the correct names, and don't have to keep a list anymore to remember that "Azerbaijani" is actually US 1930-1949...
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Old 04-05-2018, 03:00 AM   #9
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This is exactly how I do it, and honestly, I think it makes the most sense. For the US, I have 9 separate namesets, each with their own unique, permanent ethnicity ID (1870-1909, 1910-1929, 1930-1949, 1950-1969, 1970-1995, 1996-present, Negro Leagues, African American 1970-1999, African American 2000-present). When it comes time to transition from one set to the next, I just go into the nation editor and change the drop-down. Not only does it work, but it's quick and simple, too.

I've actually been doing it this way for several versions now. The only difference this year is that I don't have to sacrifice something like Polynesian to get my new namesets in, and I can give them all the correct names, and don't have to keep a list anymore to remember that "Azerbaijani" is actually US 1930-1949...
It's what?
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Old 04-05-2018, 03:21 AM   #10
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I think the reason more players aren't mentioning it is that it just doesn't seem like an issue in most situations, IMO. I certainly wouldn't call the new feature "severely limited or stunted entirely."
You're right. We shouldn't call the new feature "severely limited" or "stunted". I apologize. I guess I'm not much of a wordsmith, especially when trying to be diplomatic. The correct term is "broken".

Both the "Re-Import name and ethnicity database" AND the "Re-import world database from XML file" options in the "Database Tools" drop-down menu simply don't work. When you press these...



.... the game actually goes through the extensive and time-consuming motions of re-importing the appropriate files without succeeding. In other words, those options simply aren't working the way they were intended. In plain, simple English, it's broken.

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First of all, what do you mean by "historical-fictional"? Because I play a version of that, using real teams but fictional players
What I mean by an "Historical-Fictional" setup is precisely what you described above - starting a fictional league at some point in history and then simming your way forward.

Let me give you an example: Let's say you start an historical-fictional league based in the United States in, say, 1903. Naming practices in the U.S. have changed quite a bit since then, yes? At least, that's what the U.S. Census Bureau tells us. Sure, there are still plenty of "George's" and "Jacks's" around, but how many "Chance's", "Hunter's" and "Giancarlo's" were there in 1903? Not many.

And what about the ethnic makeup of your 1903 league? Does the United States still have the same ethno-racial makeup it had in 1903? Of course not. It's changed just a little since then, right? In fact, it's changed quite a bit since then.

Hopefully you get my point. Without having the ability to periodically re-import the name and ethnicity files within your league it will forever be stuck in 1903, and thus unable to reflect the changes that actually occurred not just in professional baseball over that period, but the whole of society as well. Capisce?

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....and I'm not having any problems
Yes, you're not having any problems because, admittedly so, you're not actually using the aforementioned feature in-game. Trust me, it's not working as it was designed to.

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--I've added a bunch of new namesets, and they're all showing up just fine. I also tried to create a historical league (MLB, 1977) just as a test, and again, all the new namesets appeared.The key is, tho, that they only work in newly-created leagues. That's when the game reads everything from the world_default file and sets things up. It's only with the MLB quickstart file that I think you would need to re-import... or if you have a pre-existing game that you want to apply changes to. Otherwise it seems to be working fine, which I think explains the lack of complaints.
How can you assert it's working fine when even you admit that one has to be certain to load their name files BEFORE the actual simulation occurs? Isn't that what the Re-Import feature was supposed to be for, to allow us to make changes to those files as our leagues evolve and change over time? So, obviously, it's not working fine, correct?
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Old 04-05-2018, 03:27 AM   #11
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Well, as someone who has contributed a few name mods, this is discouraging. I hope the developers are working on this and fixing it. I get the sense that shifting ethnicities to the xml file might have been one of those things that wasn't thoroughly tested, like the introduction of historical minors a couple of versions ago.

Anyway, since there's now no limit to the number of ethnicities you can have, I suppose you can avoid the problem by having a comprehensive list of ethnicities in the xml file to start with. That way, any changes that you make down the line would be made in the in-game nation editor, which I presume still works. Of course, that also means you need to get that comprehensive list of ethnicities to begin with, and you have to make sure you get it right the first time.

Oh well, two steps forward, one back... that's still progress, right?

Forgive me, Joe. I was remiss before in mentioning Questdog without name-dropping you as well. And you've contributed quite a bit more than just a "few name mods". The hard work that both you and Q-dog are have contributed to this community is precisely the reason we need this feature to work as I'm sure the great people at OOTP intended it to work.
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Old 04-05-2018, 04:27 AM   #12
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Capo, please take a deep breath. I don't know if you're angry at me or not, but it sorta came across that way. You say the re-import feature is broken; I believe you, and in that case it should be fixed. We're on the same side as far as that goes. Okay?

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Let me give you an example: Let's say you start an historical-fictional league based in the United States in, say, 1903. Naming practices in the U.S. have changed quite a bit since then, yes? At least, that's what the U.S. Census Bureau tells us. Sure, there are still plenty of "George's" and "Jacks's" around, but how many "Chance's", "Hunter's" and "Giancarlo's" were there in 1903? Not many.
Exactly. Which is why, as I explained in my second post, I've added namesets for each era as their own unique ethnicities. In fact, here's what the beginning of my modified world_default currently looks like (scroll down to #40):

Code:
	<ETHNICITIES>
	<ETHNICITY id="0" name="U.S. (Modern)" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="1" name="Hispanic" african="350" asian="0" east_indian="650" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="2" name="Japanese" african="0" asian="1000" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="3" name="Korean" african="0" asian="1000" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="4" name="Chinese" african="0" asian="1000" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="5" name="Portugese" african="100" asian="0" east_indian="700" caucasian="200" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="6" name="Dutch" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="7" name="German" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="8" name="French" african="53" asian="17" east_indian="100" caucasian="830" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="9" name="Italian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="100" caucasian="900" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="10" name="Scandinavien" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="11" name="Finnish" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="12" name="Swedish" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="13" name="Russian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="14" name="Czech" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="15" name="Polish" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="16" name="Scottish" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="17" name="Arabic" african="300" asian="10" east_indian="100" caucasian="500" hispanic="90" />
	<ETHNICITY id="18" name="Irish" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="19" name="African" african="1000" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="20" name="UK" african="60" asian="5" east_indian="15" caucasian="920" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="21" name="Albanian" african="0" asian="2" east_indian="48" caucasian="950" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="22" name="Serbian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="23" name="Greek" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="24" name="Turkish" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="900" caucasian="100" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="25" name="Danish" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="26" name="Armenian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="500" caucasian="500" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="27" name="Indian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="1000" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="28" name="Australian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="29" name="Azerbaijan" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="30" name="Polynesian" african="0" asian="1000" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="31" name="Austrian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="32" name="Canadian" african="0" asian="10" east_indian="0" caucasian="990" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="34" name="Filipino" african="20" asian="930" east_indian="20" caucasian="30" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="35" name="Romanian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="36" name="Indonesian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="1000" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="37" name="Pakistani" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="1000" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="38" name="Vietnamese" african="0" asian="1000" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="39" name="U.S. (Afro-American, 2000-)" african="1000" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="40" name="U.S. (Afro-American, 1970-1999)" african="1000" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="41" name="U.S. (Negro Leagues)" african="1000" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="42" name="U.S. (1870-1909)" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="43" name="U.S. (1910-1929)" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="44" name="U.S. (1930-1949)" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="45" name="U.S. (1950-1969)" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="46" name="U.S. (1970-1995)" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="47" name="French-Canadian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="48" name="Cuban (1870-1994)" african="380" asian="10" east_indian="200" caucasian="200" hispanic="210" />
	<ETHNICITY id="49" name="Cuban (1995-)" african="650" asian="0" east_indian="275" caucasian="75" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="50" name="Hispanic (Central America)" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="800" caucasian="200" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="51" name="Israeli" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="52" name="Thai" african="0" asian="1000" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="53" name="Belarusian" african="0" asian="2" east_indian="8" caucasian="990" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="54" name="Caribbean-Dutch" african="900" asian="2" east_indian="10" caucasian="30" hispanic="58" />
	<ETHNICITY id="55" name="Caribbean-English" african="940" asian="2" east_indian="20" caucasian="10" hispanic="28" />
	<ETHNICITY id="56" name="Caribbean-French" african="960" asian="2" east_indian="10" caucasian="8" hispanic="20" />
	<ETHNICITY id="57" name="Estonian" african="0" asian="2" east_indian="0" caucasian="998" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="58" name="Icelandic" african="0" asian="5" east_indian="0" caucasian="995" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="59" name="Latvian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="60" name="Lithuanian" african="0" asian="2" east_indian="0" caucasian="998" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="61" name="Macedonian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="20" caucasian="980" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="62" name="Slovenian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="10" caucasian="990" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="63" name="Ukrainian" african="0" asian="2" east_indian="8" caucasian="990" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="64" name="Mongolian" african="0" asian="1000" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="65" name="Persian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="800" caucasian="200" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="66" name="South African" african="1000" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="67" name="Swahili" african="1000" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="68" name="Dominican" african="400" asian="0" east_indian="300" caucasian="0" hispanic="300" />
	<ETHNICITY id="69" name="Bulgarian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="60" caucasian="940" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="70" name="Hungarian" african="0" asian="2" east_indian="98" caucasian="900" hispanic="0" />
	<ETHNICITY id="71" name="North Africa" african="50" asian="0" east_indian="700" caucasian="150" hispanic="100" />
	<ETHNICITY id="72" name="Central Asia" african="0" asian="200" east_indian="500" caucasian="300" hispanic="0" />
	</ETHNICITIES>
So when my league is in 1903, the US is drawing its names from ethnicity ID #42: "U.S. (1870-1909)". When I get to 1910, I go to Nation Editor, select the language drop-down, and switch it to ID #43: "U.S. (1910-1929)". And so on and so on. So yes, I start out with plenty of guys named Harry and Jimmy and Red, and gradually transition into Josh and Justin and Darren.

Capisce?

Quote:
And what about the ethnic makeup of your 1903 league? Does the United States still have the same ethno-racial makeup it had in 1903? Of course not. It's changed just a little since then, right? In fact, it's changed quite a bit since then.
Obviously. And again, I build this into the namesets and world_default right from the start, allowing myself to make changes in-game with no file-switching or re-importing necessary. Pre-1947, the US is drawing 100% of its names from the white namesets. Then I start mixing in the Afro-American and Hispanic sets at the era-appropriate percentages.

I've even kept up the old Questdog trick of having a "mirror" nation called "America", that draws its players from my Negro League nameset, which allows me to run fictional Negro Leagues alongside my fictional MLB, and have the accurate ethno-racial makeup in each one.

Quote:
Hopefully you get my point. Without having the ability to periodically re-import the name and ethnicity files within your league it will forever be stuck in 1903, and thus unable to reflect the changes that actually occurred not just in professional baseball over that period, but the whole of society as well. Capisce?
And I hope that by now you get my point--that it is possible to do what you want. You just need to do it in a different way. Rather than re-importing to overwrite your historic settings with your modern ones, build everything into your names files and world_default to start with, and then use the in-game Nation Editor to tweak things to the particular era you're currently in.

Honestly, the reason I was confused why you were having problems is because I've been doing it like this so long that I forgot that anyone else might be doing it the other way. Like I said when you first brought this up in the general forum: I don't think the re-import function has ever worked correctly. Or at least, it wasn't back when I first tried it out. Oh, sure, you could switch out a historic nameset for a modern nameset, and it would start giving you names from the new set. But it didn't overwrite the old names; it simply added the new ones to the pool, and started pulling names from both groups, which definitely wasn't what I was looking for.

I don't know if that was a problem across multiple versions of the game, but I can confirm that with the one I was using at the time (probably OOTP 12, 13, or 14), I ran some pretty conclusive controlled tests that proved to me that this was what was happening, and it was at that point that I decided I needed a work-around. So I started replacing some of the more obscure languages (Polynesian, Azerbaijani, Armenian, etc.) with my historic sets, and just making the changes between them in-game as I went along. It's worked for me ever since, and it's still working for me in OOTP 19, with the added bonus that I don't have to sacrifice anything to make room for new ones.
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joefromchicago (04-05-2018)
Old 04-05-2018, 06:31 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by DB930 View Post
Capo, please take a deep breath. I don't know if you're angry at me or not, but it sorta came across that way. You say the re-import feature is broken; I believe you, and in that case it should be fixed. We're on the same side as far as that goes. Okay?


Exactly. Which is why, as I explained in my second post, I've added namesets for each era as their own unique ethnicities. In fact, here's what the beginning of my modified world_default currently looks like (scroll down to #40):

Code:
    <ETHNICITIES>
    <ETHNICITY id="0" name="U.S. (Modern)" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="1" name="Hispanic" african="350" asian="0" east_indian="650" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="2" name="Japanese" african="0" asian="1000" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="3" name="Korean" african="0" asian="1000" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="4" name="Chinese" african="0" asian="1000" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="5" name="Portugese" african="100" asian="0" east_indian="700" caucasian="200" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="6" name="Dutch" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="7" name="German" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="8" name="French" african="53" asian="17" east_indian="100" caucasian="830" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="9" name="Italian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="100" caucasian="900" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="10" name="Scandinavien" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="11" name="Finnish" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="12" name="Swedish" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="13" name="Russian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="14" name="Czech" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="15" name="Polish" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="16" name="Scottish" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="17" name="Arabic" african="300" asian="10" east_indian="100" caucasian="500" hispanic="90" />
    <ETHNICITY id="18" name="Irish" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="19" name="African" african="1000" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="20" name="UK" african="60" asian="5" east_indian="15" caucasian="920" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="21" name="Albanian" african="0" asian="2" east_indian="48" caucasian="950" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="22" name="Serbian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="23" name="Greek" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="24" name="Turkish" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="900" caucasian="100" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="25" name="Danish" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="26" name="Armenian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="500" caucasian="500" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="27" name="Indian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="1000" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="28" name="Australian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="29" name="Azerbaijan" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="30" name="Polynesian" african="0" asian="1000" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="31" name="Austrian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="32" name="Canadian" african="0" asian="10" east_indian="0" caucasian="990" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="34" name="Filipino" african="20" asian="930" east_indian="20" caucasian="30" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="35" name="Romanian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="36" name="Indonesian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="1000" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="37" name="Pakistani" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="1000" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="38" name="Vietnamese" african="0" asian="1000" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="39" name="U.S. (Afro-American, 2000-)" african="1000" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="40" name="U.S. (Afro-American, 1970-1999)" african="1000" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="41" name="U.S. (Negro Leagues)" african="1000" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="42" name="U.S. (1870-1909)" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="43" name="U.S. (1910-1929)" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="44" name="U.S. (1930-1949)" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="45" name="U.S. (1950-1969)" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="46" name="U.S. (1970-1995)" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="47" name="French-Canadian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="48" name="Cuban (1870-1994)" african="380" asian="10" east_indian="200" caucasian="200" hispanic="210" />
    <ETHNICITY id="49" name="Cuban (1995-)" african="650" asian="0" east_indian="275" caucasian="75" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="50" name="Hispanic (Central America)" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="800" caucasian="200" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="51" name="Israeli" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="52" name="Thai" african="0" asian="1000" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="53" name="Belarusian" african="0" asian="2" east_indian="8" caucasian="990" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="54" name="Caribbean-Dutch" african="900" asian="2" east_indian="10" caucasian="30" hispanic="58" />
    <ETHNICITY id="55" name="Caribbean-English" african="940" asian="2" east_indian="20" caucasian="10" hispanic="28" />
    <ETHNICITY id="56" name="Caribbean-French" african="960" asian="2" east_indian="10" caucasian="8" hispanic="20" />
    <ETHNICITY id="57" name="Estonian" african="0" asian="2" east_indian="0" caucasian="998" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="58" name="Icelandic" african="0" asian="5" east_indian="0" caucasian="995" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="59" name="Latvian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="1000" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="60" name="Lithuanian" african="0" asian="2" east_indian="0" caucasian="998" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="61" name="Macedonian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="20" caucasian="980" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="62" name="Slovenian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="10" caucasian="990" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="63" name="Ukrainian" african="0" asian="2" east_indian="8" caucasian="990" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="64" name="Mongolian" african="0" asian="1000" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="65" name="Persian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="800" caucasian="200" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="66" name="South African" african="1000" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="67" name="Swahili" african="1000" asian="0" east_indian="0" caucasian="0" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="68" name="Dominican" african="400" asian="0" east_indian="300" caucasian="0" hispanic="300" />
    <ETHNICITY id="69" name="Bulgarian" african="0" asian="0" east_indian="60" caucasian="940" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="70" name="Hungarian" african="0" asian="2" east_indian="98" caucasian="900" hispanic="0" />
    <ETHNICITY id="71" name="North Africa" african="50" asian="0" east_indian="700" caucasian="150" hispanic="100" />
    <ETHNICITY id="72" name="Central Asia" african="0" asian="200" east_indian="500" caucasian="300" hispanic="0" />
    </ETHNICITIES>
So when my league is in 1903, the US is drawing its names from ethnicity ID #42: "U.S. (1870-1909)". When I get to 1910, I go to Nation Editor, select the language drop-down, and switch it to ID #43: "U.S. (1910-1929)". And so on and so on. So yes, I start out with plenty of guys named Harry and Jimmy and Red, and gradually transition into Josh and Justin and Darren.

Capisce?


Obviously. And again, I build this into the namesets and world_default right from the start, allowing myself to make changes in-game with no file-switching or re-importing necessary. Pre-1947, the US is drawing 100% of its names from the white namesets. Then I start mixing in the Afro-American and Hispanic sets at the era-appropriate percentages.

I've even kept up the old Questdog trick of having a "mirror" nation called "America", that draws its players from my Negro League nameset, which allows me to run fictional Negro Leagues alongside my fictional MLB, and have the accurate ethno-racial makeup in each one.


And I hope that by now you get my point--that it is possible to do what you want. You just need to do it in a different way. Rather than re-importing to overwrite your historic settings with your modern ones, build everything into your names files and world_default to start with, and then use the in-game Nation Editor to tweak things to the particular era you're currently in.

Honestly, the reason I was confused why you were having problems is because I've been doing it like this so long that I forgot that anyone else might be doing it the other way. Like I said when you first brought this up in the general forum: I don't think the re-import function has ever worked correctly. Or at least, it wasn't back when I first tried it out. Oh, sure, you could switch out a historic nameset for a modern nameset, and it would start giving you names from the new set. But it didn't overwrite the old names; it simply added the new ones to the pool, and started pulling names from both groups, which definitely wasn't what I was looking for.

I don't know if that was a problem across multiple versions of the game, but I can confirm that with the one I was using at the time (probably OOTP 12, 13, or 14), I ran some pretty conclusive controlled tests that proved to me that this was what was happening, and it was at that point that I decided I needed a work-around. So I started replacing some of the more obscure languages (Polynesian, Azerbaijani, Armenian, etc.) with my historic sets, and just making the changes between them in-game as I went along. It's worked for me ever since, and it's still working for me in OOTP 19, with the added bonus that I don't have to sacrifice anything to make room for new ones.
As impressive as the amount of work that you have obviously put into this workaround is (and it certainly is), there's just one little problem I have with the technique you're using: It's etched in granite at the beginning of each game with no way to make on-the-fly adjustments. Two things:

1.) Let's say some modder introduces a new and improved name file you want to incorporate into your game, or you discover that one you're already using is either flawed in some way or isn't yielding the results you had hoped for...and you've already simmed 50 years into your current game. You now have no other recourse but to either restart your sim, write it off as a loss, or wait until your next sim to make the changes you want, which might not occur until the next version is released, depending on deeply you're into your current game.

2.) You've simmed 100 years and have changed your mind about which direction you want your universe to go in. Maybe you've recalculated current demographic trends and want to make the necessary adjustments, or have simply re-imagined the future of your universe entirely. Afer all, no one can predict the future, especially with current migration trends. That's it. You're done. Why? Because you're limited as to how far you can deviate from your pre-scripted formula. The re-import function, if it worked, instantly fixes those things.

At the core of OOTP's appeal and playability, indeed its signature as a game, if you will, is its flexibility and multitude of options. The long and the short of it is that one of those options which affords us some of that signature flexibility isn't working right now, and there's really no proper substitute for it.

Besides, it's not as if anyone here is belatedly asking for a new function to be suddenly added to the game, only that one which is already in the game function properly in order to spare us from spending countless hours of micromanagement in simply setting up each new game and allow us more time to enjoy the game the way it was meant to be enjoyed. Surely, that's not an unreasonable request, is it?

BTW.....and I'm not writing this to pick a fight with you....but starting a conversation with the supercilious phrase "Please take a deep breath" is a little counter-productive. It tends to taint how people read your stuff. No, I wasn't angry at you, I simply challenged your earlier assertion that everything was working fine, which was incorrect. I am, however, obviously unhappy that the re-import feature isn't working as advertised, so please try not to interpret that as misdirected anger against you. Hopefully, we're cool.
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joefromchicago (04-05-2018)
Old 04-05-2018, 08:22 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by DB930 View Post
This is exactly how I do it, and honestly, I think it makes the most sense. For the US, I have 9 separate namesets, each with their own unique, permanent ethnicity ID (1870-1909, 1910-1929, 1930-1949, 1950-1969, 1970-1995, 1996-present, Negro Leagues, African American 1970-1999, African American 2000-present). When it comes time to transition from one set to the next, I just go into the nation editor and change the drop-down. Not only does it work, but it's quick and simple, too.

I've actually been doing it this way for several versions now. The only difference this year is that I don't have to sacrifice something like Polynesian to get my new namesets in, and I can give them all the correct names, and don't have to keep a list anymore to remember that "Azerbaijani" is actually US 1930-1949...
You've certainly done some impressive work - I'll have to use your list as a template for my own modded xml file. But as is evident from your list, you've added some of the namesets that Dogzilla has posted in just the last few weeks. Now that we have the ability to add unlimited namesets, I expect a lot more name mods to be added, and I'd be surprised if you didn't want to add some or all of them to a league that you're currently running. That's where we're apparently running into a problem - if the re-import names/ethnicities function doesn't work, then you can't add new names/ethnicities to an existing league. And that's definitely a problem.
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Old 04-05-2018, 08:31 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Caporegime View Post
Forgive me, Joe. I was remiss before in mentioning Questdog without name-dropping you as well. And you've contributed quite a bit more than just a "few name mods". The hard work that both you and Q-dog are have contributed to this community is precisely the reason we need this feature to work as I'm sure the great people at OOTP intended it to work.
Thanks. I think Dogzilla has me beat, and he's quickly closing in on Questdog. I hope other people now have the incentive to submit many more name mods - it's a big world out there!
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Old 04-05-2018, 08:54 AM   #16
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As impressive as the amount of work that you have obviously put into this workaround is (and it certainly is), there's just one little problem I have with the technique you're using: It's etched in granite at the beginning of each game with no way to make on-the-fly adjustments. Two things:

1.) Let's say some modder introduces a new and improved name file you want to incorporate into your game, or you discover that one you're already using is either flawed in some way or isn't yielding the results you had hoped for...and you've already simmed 50 years into your current game. You now have no other recourse but to either restart your sim, write it off as a loss, or wait until your next sim to make the changes you want, which might not occur until the next version is released, depending on deeply you're into your current game.
That much is true, for the most part. The possibility of new namesets being released has never really been an issue in the past, because people rarely bothered due to the hard cap on languages/ethnicities. It's suddenly become much more of a concern (but a nice problem to have) in 19, with all the stuff Dogzilla and Phantom Player and joefromchicago have been posting. And I'll admit that I've been delaying starting my new league for 19 just because I want to collect and add as many new namesets as possible beforehand. But at this point I think I have almost everything I realistically want... other than some better, more specific sets for some of the Latin American countries like Puerto Rico, Venezuela, and Mexico (and ones for Panama, Colombia, and Brazil would be nice, too).

And as far as my setup being flawed or not giving me the right results: not a problem for me anymore. I've been playing this format, using these basic methods, for several years and several versions now, and I pretty much have it down pat. It's really pretty simple with not much room to screw it up and have something weird happen. I admit that I did make a few mistakes early on, but they had to do with me not understanding how the game handled certain things... and they were so bad that a re-start was really the only way to fix it; a re-import wasn't going to save things at that point.

Quote:
2.) You've simmed 100 years and have changed your mind about which direction you want your universe to go in. Maybe you've recalculated current demographic trends and want to make the necessary adjustments, or have simply re-imagined the future of your universe entirely. Afer all, no one can predict the future, especially with current migration trends. That's it. You're done. Why? Because you're limited as to how far you can deviate from your pre-scripted formula. The re-import function, if it worked, instantly fixes those things.
Again, not an issue for me personally, because I'm sticking closely to the way real-life history played out. I've never actually made it from my starting point in 1876 all the way up to the present-day (gotten close a couple of times), but if I do my plan has always been to stay with whatever the present-day status quo is, play a few years into the future, and then go back to 1876 and start all over.

But while that's not a problem for me, I do acknowledge that it could be one for other people, especially those who have more a fictional element to their leagues than I do.

Quote:
Besides, it's not as if anyone here is belatedly asking for a new function to be suddenly added to the game, only that one which is already in the game function properly in order to spare us from spending countless hours of micromanagement in simply setting up each new game and allow us more time to enjoy the game the way it was meant to be enjoyed. Surely, that's not an unreasonable request, is it?
I don't think I ever suggested that it was.

Quote:
BTW.....and I'm not writing this to pick a fight with you....but starting a conversation with the supercilious phrase "Please take a deep breath" is a little counter-productive. It tends to taint how people read your stuff. No, I wasn't angry at you, I simply challenged your earlier assertion that everything was working fine, which was incorrect. I am, however, obviously unhappy that the re-import feature isn't working as advertised, so please try not to interpret that as misdirected anger against you. Hopefully, we're cool.
No, I agree. Your post came across as a bit confrontational, so I threw a little snark back into mine. But only a little, cuz I knew I might be reading it wrong, and hey, let's keep this productive if we can.

And just for the record, my assertion wasn't that "everything was working fine." It was that yes, the re-import function was broken, but the ability to add an unlimited number of languages/ethnicities is working correctly, and provides the ability to do pretty much everything I want, and a lot of what you want. So, working 100% fine? No. But also not severely limited or stunted entirely (IMO, anyway).

And yeah, we're cool. We're both on the same side here--something's broke and we want it fixed... even if I'll still never use it (sorry, I just don't think I'll ever trust the re-import to work the way I want/expect it to).
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Old 04-05-2018, 09:09 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by joefromchicago View Post
You've certainly done some impressive work - I'll have to use your list as a template for my own modded xml file. But as is evident from your list, you've added some of the namesets that Dogzilla has posted in just the last few weeks. Now that we have the ability to add unlimited namesets, I expect a lot more name mods to be added, and I'd be surprised if you didn't want to add some or all of them to a league that you're currently running. That's where we're apparently running into a problem - if the re-import names/ethnicities function doesn't work, then you can't add new names/ethnicities to an existing league. And that's definitely a problem.
Thanks. I really wanted to use your American-Ethnic namesets, too, to generate a bunch of Italian-Americans and Irish-Americans and German-Americans with a preset second nationality, but it just doesn't seem like it's going to work the way I wanted.

There's no easy way to just tell the game "take names from this group, and assign Nation_X as a second nationality". It's not set up to do that. Still, after thinking about it for awhile, I thought I had it figured out. I created a clone of each of those countries, assigned your namesets to them, and added them to the US's "second nations" list (with the option to "use names" enabled). I was expecting that 100% of the players created among these second nations groups would use your names, but that didn't seem to be the case. It looked like more half-and-half, where some used yours, and some used the standard US names. Having a German-American guy named Jaime Barrera just wasn't what I was hoping for, y'know?
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Old 04-05-2018, 10:08 AM   #18
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Great news! Lukas just posted in the bug report forum that they are aware of the problem and are looking into.
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Old 04-05-2018, 10:30 AM   #19
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Dola,

You know, in retrospect it's amazing that we're even at this point. I recall requesting that the hard cap on name sets and ethnicities be lifted in years past only to be told on at least one occasion that doing so would require a complete re-programming of the game.

Not being part of the development team I obviously can't say if that's what was actually required to achieve this in the end (Hopefully not even close). However, it does demonstrate yet again how responsive the dev team is to our requests and how attentive they are to every small detail. After all, there are probably only a handful of us who even bother to monkey around with these files in the first place.

As DB930 mentioned above, this is a nice problem to have. Sooner or later, the re-import feature will be fixed and we'll be able to make ad hoc changes to these files and update them in-game to our heart's content. We've come a long way with this.
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Old 04-05-2018, 10:30 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DB930 View Post
There's no easy way to just tell the game "take names from this group, and assign Nation_X as a second nationality". It's not set up to do that. Still, after thinking about it for awhile, I thought I had it figured out. I created a clone of each of those countries, assigned your namesets to them, and added them to the US's "second nations" list (with the option to "use names" enabled). I was expecting that 100% of the players created among these second nations groups would use your names, but that didn't seem to be the case. It looked like more half-and-half, where some used yours, and some used the standard US names. Having a German-American guy named Jaime Barrera just wasn't what I was hoping for, y'know?
That's ... weird. I've never bothered with that second-nation stuff, and now I don't think I ever will
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