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Old 02-08-2019, 10:17 AM   #1
Cobra Mgr
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South Florida should sue the Marlins

The franchise extorted a new stadium from the populace in order to compete, yet still continue to trade their stars away as if they are every MLB team's 4A affiliate.

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Of the Marlins' all-time top 25 players, by WAR -- Realmuto ranks 16th -- 23 have now been traded away, rather than held onto until they reached free agency. The other two truly are the exceptions that prove the rule: A.J. Burnett and the Marlins hated each other by the end, but Burnett made it to free agency because the "much-discussed" deal to send him to Baltimore "hit a snag" when the Marlins kept trying to throw more of their players into the swap. The other, Jose Fernandez, died in a boat crash before reaching free agency. The Marlins had tried to trade him too, according to former team president David Samson; it was the other team, Samson claimed recently, that stopped the deal.
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Old 02-08-2019, 11:08 AM   #2
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I am of the opinion, subject to being shouted down and vilified, that no public money should be expended to pay for stadiums to be built.

I can hear it now: "Naive fool! How do cities otherwise attract the jobs and tax revenue that such venues generate?" My response is to contemplate the wealth of multi-billionaires, whose wealth continues to expand in good times and bad and in particular thanks to the recent change in income tax law, and shake my head in negation.

I'm sorry, but I should not be paying tax money for these projects (nor to attract a monolithic corporation like Amazon, which has more money than God if not Apple, to locate a headquarters in my city). I am firmly of the belief that, given a viable initiative (and I'm sorry again, but professional baseball in South Florida should be a no-brainer), entrepreneurs should be able to find a way to finance stadium construction and still make very adequate profits.

Not meaning to turn this into a political thread, but you know the complaint about wealth concentration in fewer and fewer hands and the growing gulf between the rich in our society and the declining middle class? This topic is one manifestation of it.
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Old 02-08-2019, 11:49 AM   #3
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I am of the opinion, subject to being shouted down and vilified, that no public money should be expended to pay for stadiums to be built.

I can hear it now: "Naive fool! How do cities otherwise attract the jobs and tax revenue that such venues generate?" My response is to contemplate the wealth of multi-billionaires, whose wealth continues to expand in good times and bad and in particular thanks to the recent change in income tax law, and shake my head in negation.

I'm sorry, but I should not be paying tax money for these projects (nor to attract a monolithic corporation like Amazon, which has more money than God if not Apple, to locate a headquarters in my city). I am firmly of the belief that, given a viable initiative (and I'm sorry again, but professional baseball in South Florida should be a no-brainer), entrepreneurs should be able to find a way to finance stadium construction and still make very adequate profits.

Not meaning to turn this into a political thread, but you know the complaint about wealth concentration in fewer and fewer hands and the growing gulf between the rich in our society and the declining middle class? This topic is one manifestation of it.
I used to be on the side of the "economic impact" of stadiums argument. But I guess 15-20 yrs ago I came to the realization that it was all a bunch of hokum & "creative accounting". It's welfare for billion dollar industries. If the populace doesn't spend money on the tickets & at the arena, they will do it elsewhere. And there is never any obligation for the franchises to produce so that the stadiums can be profitable. Then you see the NFL taking away regular season home games from the locals in order to play in London & Mexico when those fans have invested zero into the teams. So they take away that "impact" they were shouting about when they were trying to get the public to vote for their little playhouses.
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:11 PM   #4
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Exactly. Most good teams can afford to pay it themselves, and most bad ones don't deserve taxpayer money. The Marlins? Good god, no. They only have still a team because MLB feels the need to have a presence in South Florida.

If a team in Milwaukee or some other small Midwestern market had tanked and repeatedly screwed their fans over like the Marlins have, they'd have been in Portland or Vegas or Charlotte or someplace like that long before now.
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:09 PM   #5
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If a team in Milwaukee or some other small Midwestern market had tanked and repeatedly screwed their fans over like the Marlins have, they'd have been in Portland or Vegas or Charlotte or someplace like that long before now.
Except that those prospective cities would have been offering all sorts of tax breaks and incentives for the club to relocate there rather than to another city. It's tax breaks and incentives all the way down.

The epitome of this 'franchise free agency' is the NFL, which, after Al Davis successfully sued the league, could do little to restrict a club's desire to relocate, particularly when combined with its lack of an anti-trust exemption.
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Old 02-08-2019, 05:42 PM   #6
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Then there's this. Warning: NSFW. Complete and utter asshole.
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Old 02-08-2019, 06:39 PM   #7
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Then there's this. Warning: NSFW. Complete and utter asshole.
At least he's open w/it. Next time some politician tries to fool the public into voting for another welfare home for a billionaire someone needs to play that clip.
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Old 02-11-2019, 04:59 AM   #8
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To understand what happened to the Marlins you have to start in Montreal. The decline, fall, and utter ruin of the Expos can be laid at the feet or one man: Jeffrey Loria. He spent seven years running the Expos into the ground and out of Canada. Then, after a shady back room deal reminiscent of baseball eras long past he ends up in control of the Marlins.

Once in South Florida he showed us all that we had not yet even seen the depths of his malice. For fifteen terrible, turbulent seasons he decimated our team, demoralized the players, lied to the MLB & MLBPA, ripped of the city of Miami, and actively antagonized the fans. He actually sued season ticket holders who declined to renew. Through fire sales, meddling with managers and feckless business practice he made the fish hated in their home town and mocked everywhere else. If he were on fire I wouldn't even piss on the SOB.

And now he's gone. It's a new ownership that took over a team crippled in debt, unsustainable contracts, a minor league system completely stripped of talent, and a relationship to city and fans that makes toxic look healthy. They are responsible for none of that, but they now own it. Step 1 is a complete tear down and rebuild. No team ever needed it more.

So now we are in year two. The rubble of the past is clear. Maybe they didn't get as good as they gave in the trades but they did improve their future. There is new branding and a new team culture. They have definitely improved the fan experience in Marlins Park. The minor league system is still in the lower half of the league but there are some good names with bright futures that were definitely not there a year ago.

The history of the Marlins under Loria is one of cynicism and outright dishonesty. So far the new ownership has shown none of that. They do not owe any apologies for things done on the past. If the future continues as it has, fire sales, bad contracts, deliberate fan torture, then I'll change my forum name and turn my back on this team I have mostly loyally supported since 1993. It may. What begins in misery tends to stay there. But it didn't suck before Loria and I'm betting it won't suck now that he's gone. Be patient, give the new owners a chance. You can't rebuild a house without knocking down a few walls.
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Old 02-11-2019, 08:55 AM   #9
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Gotta disagree w/u Mr.Marlin about the new ownership. When Jeter's group took over they had an improving young team hovering @ .500 that was ready to turn the corner. Instead of allowing it to continue to grow, they sold off all of their assets. This team didn't need wholesale changes. It needed an ownership group that believed in it. S.Fla got another yard sale, just a different cheapskate home owner. They shouldn't have had to go thru another rebuilding project because of money when the current one wasn't allowed to be completed.
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Old 02-11-2019, 03:12 PM   #10
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Gotta disagree w/u Mr.Marlin about the new ownership. When Jeter's group took over they had an improving young team hovering @ .500 that was ready to turn the corner. Instead of allowing it to continue to grow, they sold off all of their assets. This team didn't need wholesale changes. It needed an ownership group that believed in it. S.Fla got another yard sale, just a different cheapskate home owner. They shouldn't have had to go thru another rebuilding project because of money when the current one wasn't allowed to be completed.
Couldn't disagree (respectfully) more. Their roster was dotted with MVP types (Marcell Ozuna, Christian Yelich, Giancarlo Stanton), and very good players (J.T. Realmuto, Dee Gordon, and Justin Bour) in 2017 and they were still stuck eight games below .500. Their pitching staff was in tatters, but Jose Fernandez' completely avoidable death left a huge hole in it that pushed all the starters up a slot to positions they really weren't suited for.

They would have to have gone hard after free agent pitchers, because dealing prospects for established pitchers was nigh impossible due to their terrible farm system. Given that the franchise was allegedly hopelessly in debt, I doubt going all in on free agents would've been a wise play, so they were left with some not very pleasant options:

1) Make small moves to bolster the roster, and continue to scuffle along around .500 despite the star power on their roster. The fans wouldn't have been happy with this either, and would've been even more unhappy when their good players started to leave via free agency. A trade of Stanton was inevitable due to his unwieldy contract (unwieldy on a team going nowhere that was bleeding money). 2) Unload one or a few contracts (Stanton's was the obvious one), and try to slowly patch things up. Not likely to be too popular with the fans either, given that Stanton's departure was bound to drop the amount of wins one could reasonably expect, and trading a superstar inevitably pisses fans off, or 3) Blow the whole thing up, and trade all the valuable assets for what they hoped would be a brighter future, even if it was the furthest away of the three options. I think this was probably their best option for the long term health of the team, but it was 100% guaranteed to piss off, or even enrage the fans.

The franchise's history of selling off players has absolutely nothing to do with this sell off, even though fans will lump all of them together because it has happened throughout their existence. It must be tremendously difficult for the fans, but this rebuild should be treated as an isolated one because this ownership deserves a shot to put their stamp on the organization.

There's no point in judging it now. Let's see where it leads. Let's see where they are in the 2022/2023 offseason/late in the 2022 season. I think it's fair to say it takes about five years for most front office groups to complete this process. Trying to speed it up/shorten it can mess things up...Trust me...I'm a Jays fan. When a building process is cut short there may indeed be success (2015 and 2016 for us), but any success will most likely be short lived because the farm system hasn't had time to build up/recover from top to bottom after the previous regime's missteps.

This short cutting can result in not having prospects available at the upper levels of a system that can be used as depth when the inevitable injuries come. Quad-A players are hit or miss, and mostly miss, and that's what your upper levels will be stuffed with in the absence of quality prospects. Patience is the hardest thing for fans of any team. We want it all, and we want it now, and sometimes that's in conflict with what's in the best interest of the long term health of a team, particularly one that is most likely going to be towards the bottom of the list in team revenue regardless of the quality of the team.
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And falls on L.A.
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Old 02-11-2019, 03:45 PM   #11
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In 2016 the fish went 79-82. Their biggest assets were Prado, Bour, and the “big three” Stanton, Yelich, & Ozuna. They looked great in some categories. 4th & 5th in the MLB in Hits & AVG respectively. But they were 27th in runs scored and 25th in OBP & OPS. They could get guys on base but couldn’t bring them in So the offense needed one more bat, probably in the 6th or 7th slot.

On defense things were not as rosy. They were 5th in the league in number of team errors and 27th in runs allowed. So they couldn’t score and they couldn’t stop opponents from scoring.

Now this is where the problems began: Pitching. The bullpen was actually pretty good most of the year. The fish were 8th in SO, 9th in BAA, & 10th in ERA. However take the RP pit and focus on just the 9 players that started more than one game and it gets ugly real quick. There they were 20th 17th, & 21st. Now take Jose Fernandez 29 starts out and they are dead last in BAA, and below 25th in the rest. The starting staff has 55 QS, 25th in the MLB. Jose Fernandez has 19 of those. Take those 19 out and they are dead last. Starting pitching was a dumpster fire.

Now I say take Jose out because obviously we lost him in September. That left no decent starters, statistically speaking. When the new ownership took over they had a team with no starting pitching, a hole in the lineup, and no minor league depth at all. None, nada, zilch. To top it off they bought a team that was north of $450M in operational debt and already holding contracts they couldn’t afford. That means they could not go out and just sign a free agent and to tell the truth there wasn’t any one player that would have made a difference. You cannot build a whole pitching staff in free agency. Certainly not in one off season. They went 79-82 WITH Jose, what were they going to do without him? The pitchers they did sign Wei-Yin Chen did not contribute and were longshots anyway. So you can’t buy the pitchers you need, you can’t buy the bats you need, and you can’t promote from within. So you try to win as you are or throw the switch on a rebuild.

Taking one more shot with the team they had might have worked out. But with no major league quality in AAA you are one injury away from your season being over. And you still have a team that gives up more runs than they can score. The rebuild was inevitable. The sooner you start, the sooner you come out the other side. They did the right thing. Hell it was the ONLY thing.

I saw 66 games that year from my seats in section 202 (unless we “upgraded” or watched from the Clevlander). The flaws of the 2016 club were apparent.
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Old 02-11-2019, 04:00 PM   #12
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Then you see the NFL taking away regular season home games from the locals in order to play in London & Mexico when those fans have invested zero into the teams.
Totally disagree with this, I spent roughly $1,000 this year watching the NFL, when I was working you could double that with overtime I lost, I know some who have spent even more. I know a group of fans go every year watching Buccaneers games, one gentleman used to fly to the states watching every Raiders home game so just because we don't live stateside doesn't mean we don't invest time, money and energy into our NFL teams we follow.
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Old 02-11-2019, 05:28 PM   #13
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Totally disagree with this, I spent roughly $1,000 this year watching the NFL, when I was working you could double that with overtime I lost, I know some who have spent even more. I know a group of fans go every year watching Buccaneers games, one gentleman used to fly to the states watching every Raiders home game so just because we don't live stateside doesn't mean we don't invest time, money and energy into our NFL teams we follow.
Maybe "zero" was too strong. But Britain & Mexico didn't have to endure years of taxes, political upheaval, & disruptive construction projects to give a billionaire a place to make even more money. I don't see the major soccer leagues in Europe taking games that count away from Manchester, Madrid & Mainz fans in order to play in the Meadowlands. The NFL & the NBA has made the American fan pay through the teeth for what they have provided at a discount to Eurpoeans.
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Old 02-11-2019, 05:34 PM   #14
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Don't feel like all the quoting......

But actjack & Mr Marlin, what was wrong with adding to the team to get them over the hump? With the Marlins, there is always an excuse for the sell off. Free agency, dry minor leagues, fan attendance, stadium experience they always have a reason. Sorry, I can't deal with that. Let the fans enjoy a competitive team for a change of pace. Especially after swindling the community like they did. Done with the excuses.
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Old 02-11-2019, 06:02 PM   #15
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Don't feel like all the quoting......

But actjack & Mr Marlin, what was wrong with adding to the team to get them over the hump? With the Marlins, there is always an excuse for the sell off. Free agency, dry minor leagues, fan attendance, stadium experience they always have a reason. Sorry, I can't deal with that. Let the fans enjoy a competitive team for a change of pace. Especially after swindling the community like they did. Done with the excuses.
There was no one or two players that made the 2017 club a playoff team. And even if there were, when baseball operations starts the season $450M+ in the red how do you even pay them? Where does that money come from? Yoenis Cespedes was the top free agent of the offseason. He's an outfielder. Where would he even play? Edwin Encarnacion hit .263 in '16. He hit .258 in '17. Do you think he would have made a difference for the $60M Cleveland was paying him? The Marlins couldn't have afforded that anyway. It's easy to look back and say :they should have signed some more players and made a run" but who? And with what? Justin Turner? He resigned with the Dodgers for $64M and where would he have played? Martin Prado was our 3rd Base with a $40M contract. Who knew he would spend the whole year hurt. Aroldis Chapman? He was not a starter. We didn't need bullpen help. Ditto for Kenley Jansen. Jose Bautista was done. Ian Desmond was a possibility but once again the Rangers were going to outbid the fish.

You see the problem here? They did not have the money to sign anyone but even if they did their needs were greater than the market in the '16 off season could even meet. The rebuild is inevitable. Better to just get on with it.
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Old 02-11-2019, 06:02 PM   #16
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Yet since 1990 the Marlins have more WS titles than 80% of the MLB.

I don't agree with public funding of stadiums, but maybe there is something to small market teams going all in on teams of players on rookie deals and arbitration deals and then doing fire sells to try and bring in the next set of those players.
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Old 02-11-2019, 06:08 PM   #17
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Maybe "zero" was too strong. But Britain & Mexico didn't have to endure years of taxes, political upheaval, & disruptive construction projects to give a billionaire a place to make even more money. I don't see the major soccer leagues in Europe taking games that count away from Manchester, Madrid & Mainz fans in order to play in the Meadowlands. The NFL & the NBA has made the American fan pay through the teeth for what they have provided at a discount to Eurpoeans.
This will change in the next 5 years.

It is only a matter of time before the EPL plays regular season fixtures in the USA and Asia.
There is talk of holding one of the upcoming DFL supercups in the USA and possibly a regular season Bundesliga game.

The EPL will be the first to try it and once they see the massive financial success other leagues will try it, probably La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A and possibly Ligue 1 assuming they can find another super team to pair with PSG.

I would also not be shocked if UEFA decided to try and play a Champions league game in the US.
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Old 02-11-2019, 06:30 PM   #18
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You see the problem here? They did not have the money to sign anyone but even if they did their needs were greater than the market in the '16 off season could even meet. The rebuild is inevitable. Better to just get on with it.
You have a friend who seems to always need money. He's always asking you to loan him something. Why? There are no jobs out there. A check he was expecting didn't come on time. His rent went up. He lost his wallet. They are about to turn his lights off. His car broke down.

Now all of these by themselves are legit reasons. But when it's the same person coming to you with different sob stories all the time, you get worn down. At a certain point, there is nothing they can tell you that will make you take out your checkbook.

I'm at that point w/the Marlins. There is no train of logic they can give me to make me think their reasons are valid. If they are winning 5 yrs from now and invest into their payroll to keep their talent, I'm willing to change my mind. Until then, there is nothing you could say to make me give them the benefit of the doubt, despite new ownership.
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Old 02-12-2019, 06:09 AM   #19
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Cobra here is where you are going wrong. You are looking at "The Marlins" as a single continuous entity from 1993 to today. That is not an accurate way to think about them. Or any club for that matter. The Marlins under Huizenga were one thing. Under John Henry they were something else. Under the Loria they were something different (and altogether despicable) and now under Sherman/Jeter they have changed into something else. Each new owner brings new staff, new priorities, etc. They really do hit the reset button every time a team changes hands. Everything Loria did was over when Loria left. Sherman comes in with a clean slate. Yes there was a fire sale. One. Loria gave us many but that has nothing to do with Sherman. If they do it again in a year or two then we have something to complain about.

I can't tell you what to feel. All I can do is point out that you are being a little unreasonable when you say "here we go again". If Loria were still here you'd have a point. He's not. And I hope I've at least been able to convince you there was no free agent out there that would have made the 2017 club a contender. Had Fernandez not passed away it would have been a different story. But the day he died the future of the Marlins was carved in stone. Rebuild now or after one or two more seasons of mediocrity. No matter what it was coming.
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Old 02-12-2019, 08:39 AM   #20
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I'm not going wrong anywhere. I may have a different opinion. But I'm not wrong. There is no guarantee Jeter's way or my thinking would work either way.

Jeter's people bought the team, then practically sold the team for pennies on the dollar. After seeing one ownership group do that over & over again, then a new group follow the same method, I don't think it's unexpected for observers to find this tiring and cheap.
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then let me get the electric chair
4 all my future crimes.

- Prince
Batdance
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