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Old 01-11-2018, 12:58 AM   #31901
Veltman26
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The Polo Grounds in 1908

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Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey View Post
By the same logic, you have come to similar conclusions with no proof to back up your claims that it is Herzog...just that it looks more like him. There is really no need to denigrate what could be a significant historical find, especially on your first day here and in your first post.

My apologies for ruffling your feathers on my first day here.


Yes, I have exactly as much proof as Merkle923 - which was precisely my point! Yes, it could be a significant historical find, and it could be a big nothing, but thus far I'm not convinced. Looks like Herzog's chisel chin to me, but we'll see...


By the way, speaking of needless denigration, was it really necessary for Merkle923 to invent an elaborate scenario denigrating the reputation of Charles M. Conlon - based on zero evidence? We've got a new goat at the Merkle game, it seems. That was the "overheated fantasy" I was referring to, but I guess you missed it.


This is my second post. I sincerely hope it meets with your approval.
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:37 AM   #31902
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veltman26 View Post
The first words of this post are "Unless the primary ID is mistaken" - and there's absolutely no reason to believe that the primary ID is correct. I'm not at all convinced that the baserunner is Merkle; it looks more like another 1908 Giants rookie named Buck Herzog, which would explain why Conlon didn't bother to identify him. And Chance is holding the baserunner on, which would make perfect sense if it's not the Merkle game. Where is the evidence that Conlon was photographing this famous game? Not in the photo, that's for sure. Everything that follows from this extraordinarily shaky assumption falls apart immediately if it's a regular season game.

This alleged discovery is a textbook example of "confirmation bias" - the tendency to search for, interpret, and favor new evidence in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses. I agree that it would be extremely cool if this were indeed Fred Merkle, but unfortunately, all of our overheated fantasies can't be true!




While I wouldn't say that there is "no reason" to believe that the player is Merkle, I have been very skeptical since the photo was posted. Merkle had a very youthful face in 1908, unlike the baserunner in the photo. I've posted his Carl Horner portrait below.

A photo of Herzog from 1908 in the Chicago Daily News archives (on the left, below) does look similar to the player in the Chance photo, though the angle is not exactly the same and the resolution is poor. I think it's fair to discuss whether the baserunner is Herzog rather than Merkle:
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:08 PM   #31903
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Second post under this name?

What other name(s) have you posted under prior to this? I find it hard to believe that you created a profile never having posted here before just to go after one of our members. Funny, even with newly created names, it's hard to remain incognito; behaviors cannot hide behind new names. A shame there isn't something that can be done to block members from creating multiple profiles.

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Originally Posted by Veltman26 View Post
My apologies for ruffling your feathers on my first day here.


Yes, I have exactly as much proof as Merkle923 - which was precisely my point! Yes, it could be a significant historical find, and it could be a big nothing, but thus far I'm not convinced. Looks like Herzog's chisel chin to me, but we'll see...


By the way, speaking of needless denigration, was it really necessary for Merkle923 to invent an elaborate scenario denigrating the reputation of Charles M. Conlon - based on zero evidence? We've got a new goat at the Merkle game, it seems. That was the "overheated fantasy" I was referring to, but I guess you missed it.


This is my second post. I sincerely hope it meets with your approval.
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:29 PM   #31904
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Jim Kern Phillies 1984

Jim Kern, a good reliever for the Indians in the Seventies, came to Texas in 1979 and for that one season he was a great reliever, the best in the AL with Gossage having an injury year. The next year Kern got hurt himself, the first in a series of injuries which would destroy his career. In 1983 the dumb White Sox under genius La Russa made Kern throw when he shouldn't have, and that more or less finished his arm. The Phils signed Kern as a free agent and he spent a few weeks with them in June and July of 84, filling in for an absent Tug McGraw and getting his release when Tug came off the DL. Kern got a few innings with the Brewers and the Tribe before finally retiring in '86. "The Emu" has had a very successful and happy career since hanging 'em up, but images of him with the Phillies remain scarce and I have never seen one of him with the '86 Indians at all. Here, courtesy of newspapers.com, is the best photo of him with the Phillies that I have seen so far. Maybe a good color shot will surface someday, but until then this will do.
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:57 PM   #31905
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Merkle vs. Herzog

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Originally Posted by okcochise View Post
What other name(s) have you posted under prior to this? I find it hard to believe that you created a profile never having posted here before just to go after one of our members. Funny, even with newly created names, it's hard to remain incognito; behaviors cannot hide behind new names. A shame there isn't something that can be done to block members from creating multiple profiles.


Contrary to your paranoid suspicions, I've never posted on this forum before under any other name(s), and I certainly didn't join to "go after" anyone. I simply expressed my opinion about a highly dubious photo ID, but now you're attacking my integrity by accusing me - with zero proof - of "creating multiple profiles" to "remain incognito." Wow, I guess I'm just a master of disguise!


Let's just calm down and get back to the subject at hand: I still say it ain't Merkle...
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:12 PM   #31906
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Merkle/Herzog

If this Veltman had actually read the post rather than simply started by swinging at veterans of this board, he or she would’ve noticed I reported a finding by a SABR member specializing in photography and in Conlon’s work.

I too have doubts that it’s Merkle and not Herzog. I have debated the SABR historian and tried to theorize why this and no other images of the game would exist. Contrary to Veltman’s assumption, I would be delighted if it was Herzog. Having met Merkle’s youngest daughter, granddaughter, and great grandson, I’m not completely at ease with seeing a photograph taken a moment before a 19-year old kid’s life was ruined because he did something every other player of the time did.

I thank Veltman for raising the issue and Ken for the Herzog photo and in return offer Veltman this friendly advice: this board does not tolerate arrogance, and has repeatedly removed those who revel in it.

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Old 01-12-2018, 04:34 PM   #31907
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Bob McKinney 1901

Original Post Here Deleted

I know from my, uh, other interests, that the internet has become about taking credit for the work of others, but I really didn't think this had extended to obscure baseball research. The Twitter account "@Just_McKinney" turns out not to be posting previously undiscovered images of obscure MLB players but - so far anyway - stuff dug up here first.

First it was Bob McKinney of the 1901 A's, which I in turn posted here. Turns out our moderator posted the same image (albeit at lower quality) nearly two years ago. Just now (Saturday afternoon) he has posted what appears to be a Newspapers.com screen capture of a photo of Walt Walsh of the 1920 Phillies - which Cusick posted here two years ago.

Sadly, there's no mechanism for reporting a Twitter user for credit-hogging so just accept my apologies for giving him undeserved props here.

I'm leaving the McKinney image here because as mentioned, it's clearer.

Further update

Plot thickens. Mr. McKinney now self-identifies on Twitter as a member here, "Chickalooza," and claims he posted these images here first and is just distributing his own photos. Sigh. That's got to be a violation of our rules here.

On a second note, the other SABR researcher Mr. Cheremeteff has looked at Ken's find on Buck Herzog and is now just as much in doubt as I was until he talked me out of it. Happily, he's trying to advance the debate by obtaining a high-resolution copy of the 1908 image from the Harwell Collection.

I'm leaving the McKinney image here because as mentioned, it's clearer.
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:42 PM   #31908
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Buster Narum 1963

While we're here, this should delight at least one veteran member.

The Chicago Daily News published a two-page spread showing the '68 White Sox late in spring training. There are two exceptional Never-Played-For-Thems in here, including the '63-'67 Orioles/Senators pitcher Leslie "Buster" Narum. A copy of the paper was recently sold on eBay, and it's not bad for 50-year old color-on-newsprint.

Traded to the White Sox in the winter of '67-68 he made the picture but not the team and basically refused to go back to the minors. The Sox then returned Narum to the Senators and he sure showed them: he spent 1968 with Washington's farm in Buffalo instead of with Chicago's in Honolulu. His last hurrah came with an invite to the Cards' 1969 camp.

(The two faces in the row in front of him are Dick "Buddy" Booker (a catcher whose career lasted about 100 days) and Tommy John (who lasted slightly longer).
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:50 PM   #31909
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George Kernek 1965

The other goodie in the Daily News team photo is George Kernek, who is the answer to the extreme trivia question "who was the Cardinals' starting first baseman between Bill White and Orlando Cepeda?"

Kernek was a hoops star at Oklahoma, then enough of a prospect for St. Louis to feel comfortable about trading White during its dismantling of its infield in the off-season of 1965-66. As noted in this bio https://retrosimba.com/2012/07/27/ge...ce-bill-white/ Kernek hurt his knee in Spring Training 1966 and was never the same. The Cards certainly didn't help him by assigning him White's locker and Ken Boyer's number. On May 8th they gave up and were able to pry Orlando Cepeda from the Giants for Ray Sadecki, and all Cepeda did was win the MVP award the next year while leading the Cards to the World's Championship before he was again dealt - this time to Atlanta for soon-to-be St. Louis favorite Joe Torre.

After one more year in the Cards' system, Kernek went to the White Sox even up for another unfulfilled prospect, Jim Hicks, and got about as far as the 1968 team photo before going back to the minors for good.

(It's minor league infielder Dick Littleton to Kernek's right in the team shot)
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Old 01-13-2018, 08:56 PM   #31910
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Hi Merkle923,

Yes, it is me who has been posting images to Twitter the past couple of days under the handle @just_mckinney, a clever play on my real name of Justin Mckinney.

I have not take credit for anyone else's work or research and I have been a very active contributor to these forums. Some of my earliest finds were posted by Cusick and moderators, because I was not aware of these boards, I simply submitted to the Pictorial History Committe via email.

The Bob McKinney photo was provided to me by the Hanover Historical Society when I contacted them about research I was doing for a SABR biography of McKinney.

Anyway, because the photos I've posted are either public domain or from my own collection, I don't see any issues with posting them to Twitter, even if I have posted them here.

I greatly appreciate your contributions and the contributions of the rest of the folks on here, you make it a great place to be.

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Original Post Here Deleted

I know from my, uh, other interests, that the internet has become about taking credit for the work of others, but I really didn't think this had extended to obscure baseball research. The Twitter account "@Just_McKinney" turns out not to be posting previously undiscovered images of obscure MLB players but - so far anyway - stuff dug up here first.

First it was Bob McKinney of the 1901 A's, which I in turn posted here. Turns out our moderator posted the same image (albeit at lower quality) nearly two years ago. Just now (Saturday afternoon) he has posted what appears to be a Newspapers.com screen capture of a photo of Walt Walsh of the 1920 Phillies - which Cusick posted here two years ago.

Sadly, there's no mechanism for reporting a Twitter user for credit-hogging so just accept my apologies for giving him undeserved props here.

I'm leaving the McKinney image here because as mentioned, it's clearer.

Further update

Plot thickens. Mr. McKinney now self-identifies on Twitter as a member here, "Chickalooza," and claims he posted these images here first and is just distributing his own photos. Sigh. That's got to be a violation of our rules here.

On a second note, the other SABR researcher Mr. Cheremeteff has looked at Ken's find on Buck Herzog and is now just as much in doubt as I was until he talked me out of it. Happily, he's trying to advance the debate by obtaining a high-resolution copy of the 1908 image from the Harwell Collection.

I'm leaving the McKinney image here because as mentioned, it's clearer.
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Old 01-13-2018, 09:35 PM   #31911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkle923 View Post
Unless the primary ID is mistaken, this is not just a shot of the scene just seconds before the most infamous play in baseball history, but evidence that the most famous photographer in baseball history was there - and missed the shot of the most infamous play in baseball history......So here's the kicker. Bridwell connected on the first pitch, scoring McCormick and sending Merkle not to second but to the Giants' clubhouse, which required a hard right somewhere before he got to the next base, and sending them all into infamy when the Cubs convinced the umpires to call him out and nullify the run in this game with the two teams virtually tied for first place.

And Charles Conlon missed it.

If he photographed Merkle inching off the bag in the bottom of the ninth on September 23, 1908, he had to have almost immediately thereafter closed up his heavy, cumbersome camera and begun to move off the field just as Bridwell singled. While the most famous rhubarb in sports history unfolded, Conlon had to have been moving away from it, trying to lug the camera and the glass plates he had exposed that day safely off the field.

Bridwell's hit, Merkle not reaching second, McCormick scoring, the crowd pouring out of the stands, the Cubs refusing to leave the field, the Giants dragging Merkle back from the clubhouse to touch second, rival pitchers Joe McGinnity and Floyd Kroh wrestling for the ball, McGinnity throwing it into the stands, Johnny Evers somehow producing a new baseball and tagging second with it, umpires Hank O'Day and Bob Emslie ruling an hour later that Merkle was out - Conlon missed it the way those folks in the parking lot that you see suddenly jamming on their brake lights in highlights of Game 1 of the 1988 World Series missed Kirk Gibson's homer.

So not only is this an image from "the Merkle game" taken just seconds before the most dissected play in history but it suggests that the story that there are no photos of it isn't just wrong, it may have been deliberate. Because if you're Charles Conlon, do you really want anybody to know "Oh, yeah, I photographed that game but I left with two out in the bottom of the ninth"?
Not the Merkle game. After late August 1908, the Cubs switched to solid black socks (Chicago Daily News 8-21-1908) and caps. There are numerous photos that support this change, and there is one particular photo highly likely to be from the series that included the Merkle game. The Cubs wore solid black caps and socks.

Gory details are here:
http://sabr.box.com/shared/static/2n...3esz0o7qkk.pdf
http://sabr.box.com/shared/static/ir...mspxj4k0b8.pdf

As to whether it's Merkle or Herzog or whomever, I look forward to seeing a high res version of the image.

As for the above mentioned Justin Mckinney, he is one of the best early baseball photo researchers I have encountered, and he is a very major contributor to SABR Pictorial History Committee (of which I am co-chair).

Last edited by bmarlowe; 01-14-2018 at 12:21 AM.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:22 AM   #31912
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1925 Philadelphia A's Needed

I've searched high and low (and wide), but can't find 7 obscure 1925 Philly A's. I figured if this group doesn't have them, it doesn't exist. Here they are:

Art Stokes
Charlie ENgle
Doc Gautreau
Elbert Andrews
Jim Keesey
Lefty Willis
Tom Glass

Thanks in advance for all of your help.

For good measure, if anyone has a Whitey Herzog Texas Rangers Color photo I'll take that one too, LOL !
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:31 AM   #31913
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Cheesesteak

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I've searched high and low (and wide), but can't find 7 obscure 1925 Philly A's. I figured if this group doesn't have them, it doesn't exist. Here they are:

Art Stokes
Charlie ENgle
Doc Gautreau
Elbert Andrews
Jim Keesey
Lefty Willis
Tom Glass

Thanks in advance for all of your help.

For good measure, if anyone has a Whitey Herzog Texas Rangers Color photo I'll take that one too, LOL !
Well, first, shame on me for not trying the search engine here first. That said, these came up easy in a Google image search. Just trying the search engine here quickly shows the (same) Gauteau was previously posted here by tnfoto (plus this colorized Brave image posted by sal) and a colorized Engle was posted here by Ctrane. Also, there are a couple of minor league Art Stokes...es...posted here by Dto7 (that Portland image is the best I've ever seen of him, for sure). You can search for the others.

As for Google, this Gautreau is on Pinterest, Engle and Willis are from Find A Grave, and Keesey is from Wikipedia (albeit in a Portland uni). Please note that your post did not specify image size or that the player MUST be in a 1925 A's uni for your purposes. Sometimes, you gotta work with what you got. Oh, and OOTP poster John of Baseball-Birthdays offers colorized prints of Elbert Andrews. Not hawking his wares, per se, but it's there for you to be had.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:44 AM   #31914
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Well, first, shame on me for not trying the search engine here first. That said, these came up easy in a Google image search. Just trying the search engine here quickly shows the (same) Gauteau was previously posted here by tnfoto (plus this colorized Brave image posted by sal) and a colorized Engle was posted here by Ctrane. Also, there are a couple of minor league Art Stokes...es...posted here by Dto7 (that Portland image is the best I've ever seen of him, for sure). You can search for the others.

As for Google, this Gautreau is on Pinterest, Engle and Willis are from Find A Grave, and Keesey is from Wikipedia (albeit in a Portland uni). Please note that your post did not specify image size or that the player MUST be in a 1925 A's uni for your purposes. Sometimes, you gotta work with what you got. Oh, and OOTP poster John of Baseball-Birthdays offers colorized prints of Elbert Andrews. Not hawking his wares, per se, but it's there for you to be had.
Thank you for the quick response and the great photos. I'm looking for sizing that would fit a custom baseball card template that I'm using to make cards for my league. Your posting details were fantastic and much more detailed than I've come to expect on other forums or boards. I'd give you two "Thumbs Up" if I could.
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Old 01-16-2018, 11:47 AM   #31915
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[QUOTE=FatJack;4268579]Well, first, shame on me for not trying the search engine here first. That said, these came up easy in a Google image search. Just trying the search engine here quickly shows the (same) Gauteau was previously posted

Thanks FatJack, this is a perfect example of positive reinforcement of why this site is here....assistance to fellow collectors. And, in this case, used as a teaching method and/or reminder there are many viable sources available for us to scour in our quests. Note the tone of the response. Good form FatJack Good Form.
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Old 01-16-2018, 01:51 PM   #31916
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Hi Marc. Good to see you are still doing cards. I just finished about 16 hours a day, 7 days in a row on my vacation to do my first update in more than 8 months. I will be posting them next Monday. You can look for them here: http://www.mediafire.com/folder/z3ib256zkyizb/Cards

Included will be updates for baseball, basketball and football. I just deleted everything in that folder except hockey which is not included in this new update. Thanks again to all the contributors here and elsewhere for the great images.
Jeff
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Old 01-17-2018, 09:14 AM   #31917
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Quote:
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Hi Marc. Good to see you are still doing cards. I just finished about 16 hours a day, 7 days in a row on my vacation to do my first update in more than 8 months. I will be posting them next Monday. You can look for them here: http://www.mediafire.com/folder/z3ib256zkyizb/Cards

Included will be updates for baseball, basketball and football. I just deleted everything in that folder except hockey which is not included in this new update. Thanks again to all the contributors here and elsewhere for the great images.
Jeff
Jeff,

Glad to see an update coming from you! On the "other board" we haven't seen an update from you in a while! Like a mama hen, I began to worry!
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:26 AM   #31918
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Knights who say YEE

Some new Hyee gems up today (mostly stars) including a swing from the Mick and a crisp Burke of 1939 Yankee Joe Gallagher (if Yee can sell it, I assume I can post it).
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:50 AM   #31919
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Thanks in advance for all of your help.

For good measure, if anyone has a Whitey Herzog Texas Rangers Color photo I'll take that one too, LOL !
Might this work simarc?
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Old 01-17-2018, 07:16 PM   #31920
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That photo is PERFECT !
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