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Old 10-23-2018, 07:11 PM   #41
Cactusguy21
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The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards Airdrop01 on this, if not for his reasoning (I couldn't be further from a libertarian). Gonna have to think about it some more, but OOTP 19 might be the only version I buy.

It's honestly going to depend for me on what the regular product looks like a few years down the road. If PT helps bring in revenue and that revenue goes to creating a better overall product, then I can say that this all makes sense and I'll support it. But I just don't think that's going to be the case. This feels like a cash grab, and if it is, I wish they'd just be honest about it, and put up a GoFundMe or charge a flat rate for PT or something like that.

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Old 10-24-2018, 03:28 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airdrop01 View Post
My solution is to not give my money to people who, in my personal opinion, act in what I believe to be an unethical and/or disgusting manner.
Well, that is your right. Simply igonore PT or don't buy OOTP if you think we are acting in a way you cannot tolerate. It's your choice

Anyway, we have to agree to disagree on this one. I am not sharing your view on PT and its mechanics one bit. Nada.
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Old 10-24-2018, 03:30 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactusguy21 View Post
It's honestly going to depend for me on what the regular product looks like a few years down the road. If PT helps bring in revenue and that revenue goes to creating a better overall product, then I can say that this all makes sense and I'll support it.
This is exactly what's going to be the case. We will earn some extra money with PT which we in turn invest back into the game and improve all parts of OOTP (including PT of course). In the end everybody wins, wether you play PT or not.
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Old 10-24-2018, 07:06 AM   #44
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Yes... It's WIN WIN!.. I can see that and besides I have trusted this company since the start way back when and have NEVER ever had a reason not to!... Not gonna start now!
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Old 10-24-2018, 11:31 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airdrop01 View Post
My solution is to not give my money to people who, in my personal opinion, act in what I believe to be an unethical and/or disgusting manner.

And no one is telling you you can't give your money to such people. Nice straw man.


I do live in a state with those items. I don't give them my money and I advocate against them. Again, just because something is law, doesn't make it right. And I don't eat in an establishment with such machines. So, I think I've answered your questions. Principles aren't flexible or else they're not principles.
If I refused to deal with every business or entity that offended my principles, I'd never have kept my job, provided services to hundreds of customers thousands of people and traveled as extensively as I have over the last 30 plus years. Every airline, hotel chain, rental car provider restaurant and yes customers and employers and people I've encountered does things I consider unethical and disgusting from time to time, and I'm known to complain when they do.

I don't question your right to apply principles as you please. I do ask whether you apply them as stated to every interaction you have or is OOTPD a special case?
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Old 10-24-2018, 12:44 PM   #46
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If I refused to deal with every business or entity that offended my principles, I'd never have kept my job, provided services to hundreds of customers thousands of people and traveled as extensively as I have over the last 30 plus years. Every airline, hotel chain, rental car provider restaurant and yes customers and employers and people I've encountered does things I consider unethical and disgusting from time to time, and I'm known to complain when they do.

I don't question your right to apply principles as you please. I do ask whether you apply them as stated to every interaction you have or is OOTPD a special case?

I know this may seem antiquated, but I try to apply them universally. I've fired clients, lost clients, etc over my beliefs. Guess what? That's okay. Fortunately for me, I had immense financial success despite that and maybe because of it, frankly. People in my career, from baseball to law, all know I am a principled person. Even those with whom I disagree understand and generally respect it.

I hate that this will be my last OOTPD purchase. I've owned literally EVERY OOTP version. We switched to OOTP (1) from FPS 97 way back when. Before that we still used Micro League and paper stat keeping. My favorite was still OOTP 2 just because of how it shocked me how great it was. So no, OOTPD is not a special case. But like Dick's Sporting Goods, Enterprise Rent a Car, or whatever, they will no longer get a dime from me. Draft Kings partnership was clearly an omen of what was to come for OOTPD partnerships and values.

You don't have to agree. I have said repeatedly I don't care and I'm not out to convince you. But I think people should know the facts rather than pretend they're not real. But again, that's your choice.


I find it odd that instead of discussing the manipulative science used, I'm put on the spot to answer questions (which I have) and yet, not a single person, even the developer, has responded to the science they KNOW they use, and the addictive qualities and characteristics of this system.



And if you really believe this is going to make the product better, go ahead. I would point to every other, literally, producer of these type systems as my evidence that you're wrong on that (EA just being the easiest one).


But, again, I don't suggest that anyone do what they don't want to do. However, I find it strange that no one wants to address the points I'm making but rather just try to set up straw men and argue.



I don't want to argue. I'm pointing out facts. Take them or leave them. Like Markus says, that's your right.

I'm not going to continue this because, frankly, few respond to the points I make but rather demand I respond to personal questions, which I have. Note I have not attempted to respond in kind, either.

God bless.
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Old 10-24-2018, 01:26 PM   #47
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It seems to me your complaint is with the entire commercial system, and I'm not even saying you're wrong. It's a valid complaint.

Realistically, literally every method used to get folks to buy anything is to a greater or lesser extent manipulative.

Any advertising on tv or any other media, the way stores set up displays and lay out their floor plans, the packaging of every product you buy and use, it's all designed to make people buy more and buy things they don't need due to triggering emotional and psychological responses.

People can and do get addicted to buying literally anything and everything, just buying for the sake of buying. It's why Americans in particular, but really people in all developed countries, tend to collect so much junk. All marketing takes advantage of that, but I don't see how a reasonable solution is to stop buying anything and everything because of that.

But to somehow pick on what we're doing here as somehow being more manipulative than the advertising methods used by the companies that you likely do still buy stuff from every day, and maybe even the companies you've worked for (if they've ever advertised, though I guess not all law firms do) seems to me to be somewhat selective at best.

That being said, as Markus mentioned, to feel the way you do is your right. and if you think we are acting in a way you can't bear, that's somehow worse than what other companies you'll continue to frequent do, you have the option of not buying our products in the future. It's your choice to make and we'll always respect that, even if it makes us sad.
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Old 10-24-2018, 01:35 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airdrop01 View Post
I don't want to argue. I'm pointing out facts. Take them or leave them.
I have to disagree here. There are several statements in your post that are not facts but merely your opinion. In fact, not a single one that relates to PT and its mechanics is a fact from my point of view

Anyway, I'll close this thread for now, it does not make much sense to discuss this now without anyone ever having spent a single penny in PT. I'll reopen it once users have had a chance to experience the mode and form an educated opinion.
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