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Old 06-11-2008, 07:09 PM   #21
djday45
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I do, would it be helpful for me to be more specific in the ranges when i post fighters? btw Fitzsimmons next at 3 weights.
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Old 06-11-2008, 09:46 PM   #22
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I think it would be very helpful to post those specific numbers. Some of the people who do not rate might need something to follow (like me )
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Old 06-12-2008, 02:20 AM   #23
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These are good. Who is next?

MJ
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Old 06-12-2008, 04:27 AM   #24
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Punch Ratings

Here are the punch rating numbers for the guys rated so far.

JOHN L SULLIVAN

jab 2 point 13.75 3 point 3
hook 2 point 16.25 3 point 4.75
cross 2 point 13.75 3 point 14.25
combinations 2 point 11.25 3 point 3.75
uppercut 2 point 9 3 point 10.25

JAMES CORBETT

jabs 2 points 34.5
hooks 2 points 30 3 points 1.50
cross 2 points 10
combinations 2 points 7.50 3 points 1.50
uppercuts 2 points 15

JAKE KILRAIN

jabs 2 points 13.75
hooks 2 points 20 3 points 3.25
cross 2 points 29 3 points 4
combinations 2 points 8.25
uppercuts 2 points 18.25 3 points 3.25

PETER JACKSON

jabs 2 points 17 3 points 4.75
hooks 2 points 11.75 3 points 4.50
cross 2 points 17.75 3 points 4.50
combinations 2 points 16 3 points 5
uppercuts 2 points 17.50 3 points 1.25

TOM SHARKEY

jabs 2 points 12.50 3 points 2.50
hooks 2 points 13.50 3 points 13
cross 2 points 18.75 3 points 7.50
combinations 2 points 8.75 3 points 3.75
uppercuts 2 points 10 3 points 9.75

JAMES JEFFRIES

jabs 2 points 13.25 3 points 2.50
hooks 2 points 19.25 3 points 15
cross 2 points 13.25 3 points 5.75
combinations 2 points 7 3 points 2.50
uppercuts 2 points 16 3 points 5.50

Hope thats helpful.
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Old 06-12-2008, 04:31 AM   #25
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Corbett Ammendment

I have tweaked Corbett after further running his main fights.

pls amend his defense to -5 and his control vs slugger to 12.
His overall rating remains 11.

I will amend the original post as well.
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Old 06-12-2008, 10:09 AM   #26
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Bob Fitzsimmons - Middleweight

I find it very strange that the weight that Fitz was at his greatest and at his peak is the one he is not rated in the game.

Bear in mind with the rating that Fitzsimmons is now considered one of the greatest middles of all time and one of the hardest hitters pound for pound in boxing history.

Style - Either. A true boxer/puncher, Fitz was very adaptable to styles and had great skill as a boxer as well as pure power.

Fouls - Occasionally. A pretty fair fighter he fouled occasionally mainly due to his fondness for body punching.

Fight Inside -3. A great skilled body puncher, Fitz broke tough opponents up with his hard accurate body attack.

Fight Outside - 2. also capable of boxing when needed, this was not a first option though as he was rather static as a fighter.

Cover Up - 2. As a middle he was quick enough to defend himself when needed. this became more a problem at heavy.

Go for Knockout - 3. Always an option for him due to his almost freakish power especially at middle his natural weight.

Clinching - 72. not exactly a mover, Fitz was known to remain static so he could set himself for his short concussive straight punches.

Draw power - 6. A pretty popular fighter.

Conditioning - 1. at middle he was freakishly fit a result of his days as a blacksmith.

Intelligence - 8. a very crafty canny fighter, this will increase at heavy with his added experience.

Control vs Boxer - 13. Fitz always did best agaisnt the great boxers of his day such as Dempsey and Corbett, besting both in hsi title winning efforts. His style just suited the extra time they gave him to set for his big punches.

Control vs Slugger -12. No slouch with sluggers either his great accuracy proving very effective. Sluggers became more a problem for him at heavy with their greater power and size.

Chin vs Knockdown -2. at middle he possessed a good if not great chin, as he went up divisions he became more vulnerable.

Chin vs Knockout -2. see above.

Recovery -2. Generally he had good recovery powers through his career.

Absorb Punisment -2. He was always a brave fighter and was never a quitter a 2 suits him perfectly.

Killer Instinct - 8. never a true finisher he never the less was very effective especially at middle in taking out his opponents.

Aggressivness -8. This will reduce at higher weights as he became more static and patient.

Endurance -9. great stamina levels due to being a hard trainer and naturally fit athlete he also did not waste much energy on movement or wasted punches.

Defense - 0. He in later years became more crafty defensively but at middle it was all about his devestating offense, he was still pretty tight defensively though.

Fast Starter - 1. never took him long to get going it was only in his later years he became very conservative due to age mostly at light heavy.

Fight on Ropes -2. An average rating here.

Hitting Power -13. an immense, immense puncher at middle, he was remember able to knockout heavies on a regular basis while still mostly being within the middle limit. his blacksmith training had made him a powerful freak of nature with huge powerful arms and shoulders on a spindly middleweights legs. wthout doubt by common consent one of the the hardest punchers pound for pound of all time and at middleweight truly fearsome.

Punches Landed -45. the other factor which made him such a special offensive fighter. his deadly accurate short punching. this was his trade mark, known as the most accurate puncher of his day he used straight punches, crosses and combinations in very short and deadly distances. This made him particuarl yeffective against boxers such as Corbett as he had time to set. Against awkward brawlers such as Sharkey he was put out of his rhythem somewhat.

Counterpunching -42. a very good rating still modeling his cool patience when an opponent missed.

Punces Missed-60. He didnt waste punches, he was very economical with his attacks and a deadly sharp shooter.

Jabs 2 points 16.25 3 points 2.50
hooks 2 points 15 3 points 5.75
cross 2 points 12.5 3 points 15
combinations 2 points 9 3 points 4
uppercuts 2 points 15 3 points 5

Overall rating -13. a great, great middle who was able to become a triple champion this is Fitz at his peak. his heavy and light heavy ratings will reflect him being beyond his natural weight and in the light heavy case really an old man.
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Old 07-25-2008, 06:21 AM   #27
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Bob Fitzsimmons - Heavyweight

Here we have Fitz as a heavy. This is the incarnation he is best known to boxing fans as.

As before I will only mention a rating if im going to change it.

STYLE - EITHER - As mentioned in his middle rating. Fitz was an early model of the boxer/puncher.

INTELLECT - 9 - He was a very canny fighter and in this stage of his career after already being middleweight champion he was able to outthink most of the bigger guys in this division.

CONTROL VS BOXER - 12 - this needed boosting considerbly as he was always more effective against pure boxers such as Corbett.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT - 3 - He despite having a good chin was still way over his natural weight and this did have an effect on his punch resistance and the amount of times he was stopped.

RECOVERY - 2 - Again this takes into account his difficulty with the heavier punches.

CUTS - 2 - both the harder punches coming his way and the fact he was now somewhat a veteran. not a bleeder by any means, but his skin had more tendancy to cut and swell at heavy.

AGGRESSIVNESS - 7- He was more static as a heavy and let opponents come to him where he could use his good hand speed and accurate punching to nail them coming into him.

DEFENSE - MINUS 2 - he bacame more canny defensively as a Heavy maybe as he realised he didnt want to get hit by the heavier punches and had to take less chances. Or maybe it was his greater speed or experiance at this higher weight. Whatever the answer Fitz's defenses improved.

HITTING POWER - 10 - this is a big reduction from my rating of 13 at his middle rating but still way up from the official database of 6. He was still a very hard hitter at this weight and took out many heavies in one sided blow outs. Fitzs power even at heavy should never be under estimated.

PUNCHES LANDED - 44 - Way up on the offiical version. Fitzs two great strengths were always his power and just as importantly his amazing straight accuracy.

COUNTERPUNCHING - 42 - see above, slightly reduced from 44 as he was never a true counterer.

PUNCHES MISSED - 60 - again he jsut did not miss or waste many punches very economical.

OVERALL RATING - 11 - You will find he is still great at this level but he will be vulnerable and somewhat unpridictable against a heavy puncher, against light hitting boxers he is still very deadly.
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Old 07-25-2008, 07:11 AM   #28
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Bob Fitzsimmons - Light Heavyweight

Here is Fitz in the last of his divisions Light Heavy. It must be remembered that the division was really a barstard one at the time and not really seen as i is today one of boxing premier holy 8 true classes.

Fitz was ancient by the time he one and lost the title and he had very few fights at this weight and still managed to get himself stopped by paper punching Philadephia Jack O' Brien!

bear this in mind Fitz was very clever and crafty by this time but was really at the end of his great career.

STYLE - EITHER - as before he was a boxer/puncher.

CLINCHING - 73 - never a mover, Fitz became even more stationary by this time and had started to grab to survive.

DRAW POWER - 5 - Due to defeats and his age his marquee value was somewhat reduced now.

CONDITIONING - 3 - always a good trainer in earlier times, he like most aging fighters was less motivated.

INTELLECT - 10 - One of his main weapons now was his experiance and savvy, he had been fighting pro for 17 years by the time he won the light heavy title.

CONTROL VS BOXER - 10 - much reduced from his prime, he was still effective vs boxers.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER - 9 - was starting to be truly vulnerable against punchers, luckily for him the light heavy division didnt have many fearsome hitters at the time and was dominated by light hitting boxers, enabling Fitz to grab the title if even for a short time.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN - 3 - same as heavyweight his advanced age cancelling out their lighter punches.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT - 3 - see above.

RECOVERY 3 - he just did not have the recovery powers in his spindly legs he had in his youth.

ABSORB PUNISHMENT - 3- again he was unable or unwilling to take a beating like he had. The O'Brien fight is a great example, no way would he have stopped him at heavy a few years earlier.

KILLER INSTINCT - 6 - not really an effective finisher anymore as he just did not have the speed or the energy to follow up effectively.

AGRESSIVNESS - 6 - he had by this stage become a very passive fighter and conserved his energy very carefully and was quite effective in this style. Still having enough endurance to out point the much younger Gardner over 20 rounds.

HITTING POWER - 7 - much reduced again from heavyweight, but still having enough pop in his punches to be very effective and to keep fighters honest.

PUNCHES LANDED - 40 - reduced but still very accurate, with his one punch power gone this was now his main asset.

COUNTERP:UNCHING - 40 - he had now become almost a true counterer, his vast experiance allowing him to pick off opponents and control the fights tempo at his slow pace.

OVERALL RATING - 8 - a good solid fighter at this weight but really a shell of himself and his glory at middle in his younger days.
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Old 07-25-2008, 01:03 PM   #29
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Marvin Hart

Hart is one of those hard to rate fighters who really over achieved in his career. the art to getting him right will be to rate him to have that potential but not to achieve it as the norm.

STANCE - LEFT HANDED - As you know i often rate guys as being lefts when they wernt as i use the catergory to represent more than just stance. In this case Hart is often described as being very "awkward" and throwing guys off their game a bit of a spoiler in fact. The stance catergory represents this perfectly.

STYLE - Slugger - he was def not a boxer, rather a crude but under rated scrapper.

CONDITIONING - 10 - He had consistency problems thats for sure and some of his better results leave a very sour taste in the mouth im thinking of the Johnson fight in particular so im going to rate him a malcontent very concerned about money.

CONTROL VS BOXER - 11 - he seemed to have his best results against boxers and really struggled against sluggers so im swapping the two numbers around.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER - 9 - see above.

HITTING POWER - 5 - He was an average hitter who relied on waring an opponent down rather than one punch power. his official rating of 2 is still too low though.

PUNCHES LANDED - 40 - slight increase to reflect his volume of punches.

OVERALL RATING - 7 - slightly better than the official version and more probable that he is capable on a good day of an excellent result but he is still not going to hold on to the championship in any era.
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Old 07-25-2008, 04:27 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djday45 View Post
Hart is one of those hard to rate fighters who really over achieved in his career. the art to getting him right will be to rate him to have that potential but not to achieve it as the norm.

STANCE - LEFT HANDED - As you know i often rate guys as being lefts when they wernt as i use the catergory to represent more than just stance. In this case Hart is often described as being very "awkward" and throwing guys off their game a bit of a spoiler in fact. The stance catergory represents this perfectly.

STYLE - Slugger - he was def not a boxer, rather a crude but under rated scrapper.

CONDITIONING - 10 - He had consistency problems thats for sure and some of his better results leave a very sour taste in the mouth im thinking of the Johnson fight in particular so im going to rate him a malcontent very concerned about money.

CONTROL VS BOXER - 11 - he seemed to have his best results against boxers and really struggled against sluggers so im swapping the two numbers around.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER - 9 - see above.

HITTING POWER - 5 - He was an average hitter who relied on waring an opponent down rather than one punch power. his official rating of 2 is still too low though.

PUNCHES LANDED - 40 - slight increase to reflect his volume of punches.

OVERALL RATING - 7 - slightly better than the official version and more probable that he is capable on a good day of an excellent result but he is still not going to hold on to the championship in any era.
Your version is more like the version that was with the board game. I think your rating a pretty accurate.
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Old 07-25-2008, 04:29 PM   #31
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I agree. Fitz could very well have been the greatest Middleweight of all time.

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Originally Posted by djday45 View Post
I find it very strange that the weight that Fitz was at his greatest and at his peak is the one he is not rated in the game.

Bear in mind with the rating that Fitzsimmons is now considered one of the greatest middles of all time and one of the hardest hitters pound for pound in boxing history.

Style - Either. A true boxer/puncher, Fitz was very adaptable to styles and had great skill as a boxer as well as pure power.

Fouls - Occasionally. A pretty fair fighter he fouled occasionally mainly due to his fondness for body punching.

Fight Inside -3. A great skilled body puncher, Fitz broke tough opponents up with his hard accurate body attack.

Fight Outside - 2. also capable of boxing when needed, this was not a first option though as he was rather static as a fighter.

Cover Up - 2. As a middle he was quick enough to defend himself when needed. this became more a problem at heavy.

Go for Knockout - 3. Always an option for him due to his almost freakish power especially at middle his natural weight.

Clinching - 72. not exactly a mover, Fitz was known to remain static so he could set himself for his short concussive straight punches.

Draw power - 6. A pretty popular fighter.

Conditioning - 1. at middle he was freakishly fit a result of his days as a blacksmith.

Intelligence - 8. a very crafty canny fighter, this will increase at heavy with his added experience.

Control vs Boxer - 13. Fitz always did best agaisnt the great boxers of his day such as Dempsey and Corbett, besting both in hsi title winning efforts. His style just suited the extra time they gave him to set for his big punches.

Control vs Slugger -12. No slouch with sluggers either his great accuracy proving very effective. Sluggers became more a problem for him at heavy with their greater power and size.

Chin vs Knockdown -2. at middle he possessed a good if not great chin, as he went up divisions he became more vulnerable.

Chin vs Knockout -2. see above.

Recovery -2. Generally he had good recovery powers through his career.

Absorb Punisment -2. He was always a brave fighter and was never a quitter a 2 suits him perfectly.

Killer Instinct - 8. never a true finisher he never the less was very effective especially at middle in taking out his opponents.

Aggressivness -8. This will reduce at higher weights as he became more static and patient.

Endurance -9. great stamina levels due to being a hard trainer and naturally fit athlete he also did not waste much energy on movement or wasted punches.

Defense - 0. He in later years became more crafty defensively but at middle it was all about his devestating offense, he was still pretty tight defensively though.

Fast Starter - 1. never took him long to get going it was only in his later years he became very conservative due to age mostly at light heavy.

Fight on Ropes -2. An average rating here.

Hitting Power -13. an immense, immense puncher at middle, he was remember able to knockout heavies on a regular basis while still mostly being within the middle limit. his blacksmith training had made him a powerful freak of nature with huge powerful arms and shoulders on a spindly middleweights legs. wthout doubt by common consent one of the the hardest punchers pound for pound of all time and at middleweight truly fearsome.

Punches Landed -45. the other factor which made him such a special offensive fighter. his deadly accurate short punching. this was his trade mark, known as the most accurate puncher of his day he used straight punches, crosses and combinations in very short and deadly distances. This made him particuarl yeffective against boxers such as Corbett as he had time to set. Against awkward brawlers such as Sharkey he was put out of his rhythem somewhat.

Counterpunching -42. a very good rating still modeling his cool patience when an opponent missed.

Punces Missed-60. He didnt waste punches, he was very economical with his attacks and a deadly sharp shooter.

Jabs 2 points 16.25 3 points 2.50
hooks 2 points 15 3 points 5.75
cross 2 points 12.5 3 points 15
combinations 2 points 9 3 points 4
uppercuts 2 points 15 3 points 5

Overall rating -13. a great, great middle who was able to become a triple champion this is Fitz at his peak. his heavy and light heavy ratings will reflect him being beyond his natural weight and in the light heavy case really an old man.
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Old 07-25-2008, 04:31 PM   #32
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It's nice to see someone whose ratings are practically identical with mine!
Good job! Well, I guessed my opinion would be biased - but that's okay


Quote:
Originally Posted by djday45 View Post
First up, John L is a fiendishly hard fighter to get right as most casual boxing fans only remember him as a sad fat untained old man who lost miserbly to Corbett.
This unfortunate legacy tends to overshadow what a great fighter he really was, the first great superstar of the sport. I will be rating John L here in his prime and also attempting to take into account how he should perform in that distant era up against other 19th century fighters and the difference in the sport back then.

As a matter of course I will only mention catergories I am changing, if i dont mention a rating you know I already absolutely agree with it.

FOULS - change to Frequently. Im changing from often to Frequently for two main reasons. firstly boxing back then was so much wilder, dangerous and foul ridden than it is today and also even in this era Sullivan was known for his no holds barred approach especially in his bare knuckles fights. It isnt such that he was so dirty in a Greb/Zivic way, more that he was so wild and had an win at all costs im the toughest guy in the bar attitude.

FIGHT INSIDE - change to 3. Sullivan was known as a great inside man. Although not a wresting specialist like Kilrain or Mitchell due to his great power, he was none the less very skilled. An easy decision to up it by one.

FIGHTING OUTSIDE - change to 1. Although Sullivan could box and was perfectly capable of doing so on occasion, it was so alien to his natural all action wild style that im reducing it down to one. If a rating of two is the default here, he should be boxing more rarely in fights than the average.

COVER UP - change to 0. The same applies only more so. Like many of the great punchers from history, Sullivan was so used to blasting out his opponents and relying on his immense power he was incapable of covering up when it was rarely required. Also he took a punch so well he was very rarely hurt anyway.

KNOCKOUT - change to 4. come on the guys style was all about power. I will be awarding 4's to all the great heavyweight punchers from Sullivan to Tyson, it is the default of his style.

CLINCHING - change to 74. Back then wrestling was a major part of the sport, ring movement as we know it today really didnt exist until Corbett came along. Which was why partly he was so effective. To represent this Im going to be increasing most guys Clinching ratings and reducing Corbetts.

DRAW POWER - change to 10. Its all relative to today of course but in his own era the boston strong boy was THE superstar, boxings first superstar. wwithout doubt the most popular sportsmen of his era an easy no brainer decision.

INTELLECT - change to 4. A major part of his problem with Corbett was that he was incapable of working out what was happening and was unable to adapt. For all his skills Sullivan was amoung the easiest of heavyweight champs to work out his style as effectively he never changed it. Till he tasted defeat with Corbett he never needed to!

CONTROL VS SLUGGER - change to 13. Although the conventional wisdom for ratings is that you should never have more than a two point spread between the boxer/slugger ratings, its one i hearily disagree with in some special cases. Sullivan is certainly that. Because their were so few boxers in his era and to make Corbett so special and unique we must look carefully at why Sullivan dominated so easily against all other opponents. I fully intend using all the numbers on the control factor scale otherwise why are they there?

If I put guys like Marciano, Foreman and Dempsey at the top of the tree against sluggers and give them a 15 and Liston and Tyson maybe 14's then Sullivan must be on the next tier at 13 against other sluggers. this makes him rigtly truly fearsome in his own era and points up even more his ineptitude against Corbett and his fear of Peter Jackson if we keep his boxer rating at 9.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN - change to 1. Sullivans chin was not average, it was great. He did not get hurt and even when he did he fought through it. a truly tough brave man a one is the least he deserves.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT - change to 1. the only time he got ko'd was as an old man at the fag end of his career, and the way sullivan fought beleive me he took some great punches over his time.

RECOVERY - change to 1. Again the same applies he just had a great chin and recovery powers as he said !Im the toughest SOB in the house".

RESISTANCE TO CUTS - change to 1. This is not a reflection on Sullivan per se more a decision to represent the era. Fights just did not get stoppDEFENed in this time period as they do today. It just NEVER happened unless the fighter was so babdly injured it was almost a horror story. This is just a small nod to that wildy different era and I will be giivng most fighters of that time period this rating.

ABSORB PUNISHMENT - change to 1. as I mentioned above Sullivan was a very, very tough man. Also fights jsut didnt get stopped so easily and lastly any guy that can go the amount of rounds he did in some of his epic contests and outlasted the other tough guys deserves a 1.

DEFENSE - change to +6. This is one rating in the database where Sullivan is vastly overated. He had no defense. Defense just did not exist to him. he took a lot of punishment in his career because as far as he was concerned much like Marciano but even more so he would be willing to take four punches to get in one of his own haymakers. He was quite fast offensively (we will get to that soon) but he just not capable of using a modern defense as we know it today. Again this is a feature of the vast majority of fighters in his era so it does not just affect John L in isolation but again just shows up the exceptions like Jackson, Corbett, mace even more starkly.

HITTING POWER - Change to 12. his power in the database of 9 in no way reflects his true prowess as a puncher. Again looking at a overall historical perspective with guys like Louis, Marciano, Tyson and Liston being 13's we must rank Sullivan as a notch behind those guys. If you are in any doubt on this jsut remember he was none as a deverstaing puncher and finisher even in an era when fights werre just NOT stopped!

PUNCHES LANDED - Change to 40. again his raing of 34, is just very, very wrong. He was known to be fast, very fast and this in no small way contributed to his offensive success. I have been careful to not increase him to the real speed merchants of 42+ but only because despite his speed he was still in modern terms still quite untechnical and lacking in modern boxing skills, otherwise on sheer speed alone he would be higher, but we must remember this catergory is more complex than that.

PUNCH TYPES - change the 3 point punches until the crosses are at least 14 by reducing down the jabs and combos in particular. His right hand was his murder weapon and it must be remmebered jabs and combos were very lacking in this era.

OVERALL RATING - Changes to 10. after all my ammendments he bumps up to a 10.

Comments welcome. Next up CORBETT.
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Old 07-26-2008, 03:16 AM   #33
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Quote:
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It's nice to see someone whose ratings are practically identical with mine!
Good job! Well, I guessed my opinion would be biased - but that's okay
Lol, thks Jim,
I will carry on with the Heavyweight champs for a while before branching out to the other classes.
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Old 07-26-2008, 04:09 AM   #34
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Tommy Burns

Burns is very, very underated with modern fans, this is in no small part to his losing effort to Johnson being to put it mildly falsely reported at the time for being so one sided.

He in fact was a remarkable fighter who managed to use his small size to his advantage against other heavyweights until he ran into simply maybe the greatest heavy of all time.

This does not take away the fact that he was an excellent heavyweight champion and would have given many of the others a real life and death struggle.

STANCE - Left Handed - Once again im going to make him a lefty when he wasant historically, this time to model the fact he was supposedly a real master of mind games, often giving himself a huge advantage going into the ring as he had already played with his opponents psyche. He did this most famously against both Hart and O'Brien.

STYLE - Slugger - im changing his style from either to slugger as he rarely boxed but instead often used his brusing inside style to counter punch from a very short distance and its really not the same thing at all. He was a counter punching inside man and a pretty tough bruiser on occasion but done with speed and skill.

FOULS - Often - Changing this to often as he was known to apply many tricks not all legal to his inside battling. So much so that O'Brien in their last fight tried to get an agreeement he would stop all such tactics.

FIGHTING INSIDE - 3 - a no brainer to increase this to three as it was his favourite tactic by far.

FIGHTING OUTSIDE - 1 - Again he could box and at middle did it more often, he jsut found at heavy due to his size disadvantages it was much better for him to be on the inside.

CLINCHING - 72 - this increased to reflect his inside work.

CONDITIONING - 1 - why the hell he is down as being a 7 (inactive) god only knows. He was known at the time for being maybe one of the most active globe trotting champions ever in fact maybe the first true WORLD heavyweight champion. He was aleays in top shape, what were they thinking here?

INTELLECT - 8 - given him a big boost here as he was known as a very clever fighter especially against bigger men where he turned his apparently smaller size problems to his advantage.

CONTROL VS BOXER - 12 - he actually did better against boxers than agaisnt sluggers as is usual in boxing with inside brawlers as the boxer has less room to operate effectively, He lost against Johnson of course but that was more about skill levels and physical attributes than styles and of course Johnson was even able to out match him on the inside.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER - 11 - see above.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN - 2 - Burns was very rarely dropped and even then it was mostly after the Johnson fight. He had an excellent chin.

CHIN VS KNOCKOUT - 1 - again only stopped after he was a shell of himself and remember the polive stopped the Johnson fight. Burns was not ko'd and was still on his feet.

ENDURANCE - 9 - His stamina was excellent and he won many bouts either over 20 rounds or with late stoppages, was always in great nick.

HITTING POWER - 8 - Had a stinging hurtful punch and carried this up to heavy where he stopped many of his opponents, not a true knockout puncher he still managed to leave the majority of his heavyweight opponents on the canvas despite being the much smaller man.

COUNTERPUNCHING - 42 - An excellent, fast, counterer, Burns zipped in and out of range on the inside, quickly countering his bigger opponents ponderous blows with his hurtful, stinging punches.

OVERALL RATING - 11 - a big jump i know from the official version but after much research on the excellent fellow, I feel this is Burns much more how he truly was and puts Johnsons achievement against him in the correct context.
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Old 07-26-2008, 07:43 AM   #35
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Jack Johnson

His rating is pretty acurate but needs changing in some areas to get him on the money.

FIGHTING INSIDE - 4 - He mas a master inside fighter and his ability to clinch, slip blows and parry inside then counter with his amazing uppercuts was one of his biggest strengths

FIGHTING OUTSIDE - 3 - changed slightly to reflect him fighting flat footed much of the time not a true mover like Holmes or Ali for example.

CLINCHING - 73 - as mentioned was a master at clinching not just to rest but to set up his punches on the inside.

CONTROL VS SLUGGER - 14 - Always did best against fighters who led against him and moved in where he could use his amazin defence to block and parry and counter.

CHIN VS KNOCKDOWN - 3 - despite his vaunted skills he could and was hurt and suffered a few stoppages in his career his chin must have a slight question mark especially when you consider his excellent defence.

ABSORB PUNISHMENT - 3 - his heart is also under examination, maybe not so much his heart but he was involved in some strange stoppages such as Hart and Willard and he perhaps was a bit of a bully and lsot the will to win when it wasant going his way.

KILLER INSTINCT - 5 - The point was he could finish if he wanted to he certainly had the tools but Johnson just didnt WANT to. he enjoyed taking his time slowly picking men apart like tearing wings off a butterfly he was a very cruel fighter look at the Burns and Jeffries fights for examples.

AGGRESSION - 6 - he was very very patient and never took chances not until he was in total control of a fight in the later rounds, the prototype counter puncher.

FAST STARTER - 3 - again he took a while too warm up and could be very passive in the early rounds of a fight while he took his measure of his man.

HITTING POWER - 8 - quite a powerful puncher when required his trouble was he was so careful he rarely employed his power punches until late on. Even so his punches especially the right hand and uppercut were nasty and damaging.

COUNTER PUNCHING - 46 - one of the greatest counter punchers off all time with great speed skill and defensive ability setting him up to counter with his long quick jab or straight right hand.

PUNCHES MISSED - 58 - He was one of the most economical fighters, rarely missing or using any more energy than he needed to expend.

PUNCH TYPES - increase his 3 point crosses and especially his uppercuts and reduce down his hooks and combos somewhat.

OVERALL RATING - 13 - Johnson should be right up there with that tier of Ali and Louis, I feel he would give them a life or death contest and then lose surprisingly to a fighter not fit to lace his gloves.
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Old 07-26-2008, 09:23 AM   #36
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I just wanted to point something out. Partially because the game does not consider the ratio of 3/2 point punches in calculating Overall rating, (and partially because it makes some sense), the Db for 2.5 had a Hp/3 pt ratio standard built in.


HP 3pt Range
1 0 to 3
2 3 to 6
3 6 to 9
4 10 to 12
5 13 to 15
6 16 to 20
7 21 to 25
8 26 to 30
9 31 to 36
10 37 to 42
11 42 to 44
12 45 to 47
13 48 to 50
14 51 to 54

It's your game to do with you want with, but if you wanted to factor HP into OR at the same clip for all fighters, these standards would need to be followed.
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Old 07-26-2008, 03:19 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
I just wanted to point something out. Partially because the game does not consider the ratio of 3/2 point punches in calculating Overall rating, (and partially because it makes some sense), the Db for 2.5 had a Hp/3 pt ratio standard built in.


HP 3pt Range
1 0 to 3
2 3 to 6
3 6 to 9
4 10 to 12
5 13 to 15
6 16 to 20
7 21 to 25
8 26 to 30
9 31 to 36
10 37 to 42
11 42 to 44
12 45 to 47
13 48 to 50
14 51 to 54

It's your game to do with you want with, but if you wanted to factor HP into OR at the same clip for all fighters, these standards would need to be followed.
Good point!
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Old 07-27-2008, 04:53 AM   #38
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That is a handicap to rating fighters take Cooney -Homes fight i have the tape and have watched it over and over even counted the punches punches landed Holmes had a small edge in punches landed in the 1st 8 rds Cooney had a edge but Holmes started to take over but my point is in the game Holmes is rated either b/s hp 7 25 3pt Cooney slugger hp 9 36 3pt blows but if you watch the fight Holmes land a lot higher 3pts than Cooney. I never go by the chart in rating fighters hitting power and hard effected punching are to defferent things.I have rerated a bout 1/2 of the heavyweights in the game and a few other fighters.my rating for Holmes the only things i changed i have him as a boxer
until 1983 when his legs srarted to go then he would go eitherway hp 5 not 7 most off his stoppages were tko not ko's but i rasied his 3pt punches to 35 not 25 punches landed 41 counter punches 44 pt 59 clinch 67 def -3 Cooney i keep his hp at 9 raised PL 39 3pts i dropped to 25 not 35.Some fighters might fit the mold but in order to have true ratings you have to have flexabilty.The game needs to have a rating for 3pt punching and rating for hp not both together Harry Greb hp=4 3pts =10 noway that is right at MW i HP stayed at 4 i raised 3PTS to 30 at LHW HP 3 3PTS 25 .The chart is a good guide line for
those that are just starting to rate fighters
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Old 07-27-2008, 12:28 PM   #39
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I agree that there needs to be flexibility with regard to HP:3 pters.

In fact, I've used Holmes myself as an example to make the point. I wouldn't think Cooney is a guy whose typical damage would belie his HP and thus be an exception on the other side, but I haven't studied it enough to say with any real conviction.

But in general, if a guy hits hard, he hits hard. I would think a majority of fighters fall into the table guidelines . . how much of a majority? 51%? 75%? 91.32%? I'm not sure.
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Old 07-27-2008, 01:38 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
I agree that there needs to be flexibility with regard to HP:3 pters.

In fact, I've used Holmes myself as an example to make the point. I wouldn't think Cooney is a guy whose typical damage would belie his HP and thus be an exception on the other side, but I haven't studied it enough to say with any real conviction.

But in general, if a guy hits hard, he hits hard. I would think a majority of fighters fall into the table guidelines . . how much of a majority? 51%? 75%? 91.32%? I'm not sure.
My advice is dont get caught up in formulas and calculations rating fighters in this game is much more than a science. It's what "feels" right that you feel in your bones thats what the fighter was like.

Now the more you research fighters and boxing in general you will find its a game of opinions, sometimes flatly contradictory ones lol.

My other golden rules is to test, test and test your ratings again and again.
But and here is the other killer it is very very easy to make many fighters very very average so to make it possible to account for very weird results in their careers, that is a mistake.

Take for example the Hart-Johnson result, now as I have rated them their is very little chance of their historical result being repeated as it should be, this does not mean that Hart is badly underated or Johnson the opposite, sometimes especially in boxings distant past results are just unexplainable apart from looking at more dubious answers.
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