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OOTP 14 - Historical Simulations Discuss historical simulations and their results in this forum.

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Old 03-29-2014, 11:34 AM   #1
RayFleetwood
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Why is 1876 not accurate?

Hello. I just downloaded OOTP a few days ago. I am fascinated by pre-1900 baseball. I hope that by replaying seasons from that era I might learn more about players and teams of that time.


I am trying to build an 1876 replay. When I launch an 1876 game, a league with two four team divisions is created. The NL was a single division 8 team league at that time. Three of the teams created were not part of the NL in 1876.


What gives? If a game claims to be a historical replay, why would it not strive to be accurate? It makes me wonder what else might not be accurate.


I know this sounds negative for my very first post but I would like to hear thoughts of users and maybe the developers about this matter.


Thanks in advance for any replies.
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Old 03-29-2014, 12:18 PM   #2
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Several years ago when Pre-1901 baseball was first added to OOTP it was decided to have artificial league and team setups. At the time OOTP requirements included 2 leagues and an even number of teams per league. For 1871-1900 this remains true as game defaults although with a lot of hand work true pre-1901 baseball can be attained. Having to do all the work by hand is a P.I.T.A. though. Computers are supposed to eliminate this sort of thing but in the case of the OOTP computer program it adds to the issue.
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Old 03-29-2014, 12:37 PM   #3
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Thank you for the reply. Your answer prompts a couple of more questions.


Is it just the league structure that was altered?


Are the players in this league historically accurate, i.e. real player with accurate statistics or do you know if those were changes as well?
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Old 03-29-2014, 03:57 PM   #4
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The players are accurate. Their ratings come straight from actual stats of historical players just as the modern players do.
But as previously mentioned the game does not handle pre-1901 leagues as well as modern lesgues without some manual work. Yes you can have the actual rosters, schedules etc but it may take a little more work on your part.

That being said if you have Old Hoss Radbourn there is a good chance he will win 60 games but not if you have 3 man rotation for a 60 game season.
At this point the game doesnt handle teams folding and other teams starting mid season as well without your input.
Dont get discourage. There are others who feel the same as you and have made some mods and suggestions. I would search the board but i would look for advice from maybe the last 3-5 years cause if i remember correctly we had to use a work around method to get 19th century players into the game. So that advice might be old. Anyway hope you still enjoy the game.
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Old 03-29-2014, 04:49 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayFleetwood View Post
Thank you for the reply. Your answer prompts a couple of more questions.


Is it just the league structure that was altered?


Are the players in this league historically accurate, i.e. real player with accurate statistics or do you know if those were changes as well?
The players are accurate.
Just redo the accurate NL after league creation and then have a fantasy draft and either assign them manually or draft them as you like.
After league creation go to League Setup - Edit League structure.
1876 National League Season Summary - Baseball-Reference.com
When you get the NL teams accurate delete the AL. Turn off league evolution, til 1900. Turn it back on after you start 1900 and the changes should automatically happen for 1901.
I had a file through 1875 that was 90% accurate but i just deleted that league 3 days ago as i had given up on all other leagues other then my main league. I do have 90% accurate 1871 quickstart.

No Pepper has a uniform set for 1876-1900.
Or I thought he did but I can not seem to find it.
Gambo has a ballpark file on ootpmods.com that has pictures of some, maybe all of the pre 1900 parks.
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Old 04-04-2014, 03:12 PM   #6
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The bottom line is that you can't accurately reproduce 19th century baseball if you truly want realism. Even if you can get your league structure and teams correct and you do all the manual labor to set things up and move forward properly, or even if you use a quickstart, the game engine does not reflect the actual rules and scoring procedures for baseball during the 19th century.

Many aspects of the game were completely different, such as rules for balls, strikes, strikeouts, walks, statistics, etc. For example, walks counted as at bats in 1876. They counted as hits in 1887. 9 balls were required for a walk as of 1879, then later 8, then 6, then 5, and later 4.

Sac bunts weren't counted statistically until 1889. The mound was 10 feet, 6 inches closer to home plate until 1893. Foul balls could be caught on one bounce for an out until 1883.

Overhand pitching didn't even exist and releasing the ball above your waist wasn't allowed until 1883. And many of the pitches that were developed in subsequent years didn't exist either.

These and many other rules, rules changes, and aspects of the game dramatically impact the stats in the historical database, and OOTP is not designed to interpret them within a proper historical context.

So, no matter what you do, you will not be able to create a historical 'replay' of 1876 through 1900. Anything you do will basically be a fictionalized approximation of early baseball.

Now, that may not matter if you only care about the macro-level stuff like league structure and teams. But if you want true replay accuracy for those early decades, to my knowledge, it doesn't exist with any baseball sim.
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Old 04-04-2014, 05:52 PM   #7
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I have to disagree a bit with you Charlie. The rules really have little affect on the outcome or else they would apply to the modern era as well. The game could care less how many strikes it takes for a strikeout, its only looking at your league settings and the ratings of the players. It doesnt simulate low or high batting averages based on changes in the strike zone , lowering or raising the pitching mound etc. It cares about the end result.
Now i think you correct in that you cant simulate a what if scenario as well as a modern league. Reason being theres less teams and less players. Theres a lot better chance of Pitcher who started 25 games to get that amount in 1967. But in 1876 you less teams and you could have teams that have pitchers who only pitched 5 games.
Now having said that if you use the same rosters, same trades, same schedules etc the players can be as close to accurate as the modern leagues can be. The game is not simulating the results of the rule changes. Its simulating the results of league settings and player stats. A player that had 20 walks in1879 should still have that. He shouldnt have 100 because the rules of baseball changed. The game has no way of knowing the rule changes in baseball.
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Old 04-05-2014, 12:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Hough View Post
The bottom line is that you can't accurately reproduce 19th century baseball if you truly want realism. Even if you can get your league structure and teams correct and you do all the manual labor to set things up and move forward properly, or even if you use a quickstart, the game engine does not reflect the actual rules and scoring procedures for baseball during the 19th century.
The original post concerned the structure of the league. If it claimed to be a historical league, why would it create two four team divisions and three of the teams were not even in the NL at that time? Those questions were answered in earlier replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Hough View Post
Many aspects of the game were completely different, such as rules for balls, strikes, strikeouts, walks, statistics, etc....................These and many other rules, rules changes, and aspects of the game dramatically impact the stats in the historical database, and OOTP is not designed to interpret them within a proper historical context.

So, no matter what you do, you will not be able to create a historical 'replay' of 1876 through 1900. Anything you do will basically be a fictionalized approximation of early baseball.
Yes, I understand that the rules were different. I actually played Vintage Base Ball. That is part of the reason I am fascinated with 19th century baseball. I have to agree with BaseballMan on this point. Many of the statistical differences that will be created will be minor. The game engine will generate walks, strikeouts, hits, and outs and it will be a reasonable approximation of the game. A walk is a walk, be it 9 balls or 4 balls. (Note: The original said 9 "called balls" be they balls or strikes. Balls could not be called unless the umpire warned the pitcher that he felt he was not throwing "good" pitches. The first pitch to each batter could not be a "called ball." So, if a batter had a count of 7 balls and 1 strike, he could swing and miss at Strike 2 and be awarded first base.)

However, there is one rule difference that would make quite a difference. Substitutions were not allowed, except in case of injury, until 1891. Until that time teams had a second pitcher play another position, usually right field or first base, so if a change was needed one was available. Is there a way to disable substitutions in OOTP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Hough View Post
Now, that may not matter if you only care about the macro-level stuff like league structure and teams. But if you want true replay accuracy for those early decades, to my knowledge, it doesn't exist with any baseball sim.
My ultimate goal is not replay those years. I am trying to learn the game (OOTP) in order to eventually create an OOPT online league to play from 1876 forward somewhat accurately. I have a long way to go and a lot to learn.

Last edited by RayFleetwood; 04-05-2014 at 12:56 PM.
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