Home | Webstore
Latest News: OOTP Update 20.5.52 - OOTP 20 Available - FHM 5 Available

MLB All-Star Game Special: Save 50% on OOTP 20!

  

Go Back   OOTP Developments Forums > Prior Versions of Our Games > Franchise Hockey Manager 2 > FHM 2 - General Discussions

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-29-2016, 03:15 AM   #1
AEWHistory
Minors (Double A)
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Trenton, NJ
Posts: 154
Thanks: 87
Thanked 61x in 38 posts
Player Develoment in Historical Mode

So I have been using the new FHM player development option instead of just letting the player just follow their historical stats automatically. I love this idea in theory. In practice, however, I think there are a few issues I'd like to bring up for the future. I may be off base, so I'd like to understand if I am, but here goes....

1. Player prime is set at, I think, 23. This appears to have an option to change it but nothing I do seems to let me do this, so it is stuck there. I wonder if 23 is really the crescendo of a player's ability? Especially with defenseman, they often reach their prime well into their 20s. The problem is that their stats will improve up to about 23 and after that your coaching staff often is bailing water out of a sinking ship. What I mean by this is that by 25 many players start to lose attribute points, so you have to put resources that would go toward developing young players into just keeping your newly developed veterans from falling off a cliff. I've seen my guys lose 2 and 3 attribute points in a month! No doubt for some this makes sense, but would a prime of 26 to 28 make more sense? This brings me to my next issue...

2. Because the window for development is fairly short (up to about 23) and some players have to to develop a LOT to reach their potential, I don't see how some of these superstars can reach their potentials. For example, going from a 12 in one stat to, say, an 18 would take half a year if you hit that stat every single time. That isn't going to happen, so maybe it takes two or three years. But what if the player has half a dozen stats that need a lot of developing to reach their historic potential?

I'm not saying every historic player must reach their historic performance, but for some it doesn't seem possible and that seems like a flaw to me. This is exacerbated by the next issue....

3. In the main FHM game you can develop players in your minor league system but HM lacks this. I'm not really complaining about that as I am fine with the quasi-minor leagues represented as the 'reserve'. In fact, I actually prefer the reserve to managing minor leagues, but the effect of the reserve needs to better simulate what the minor league system does By putting a developmental player in the system. As it is now, a player put into reserve often lead to unhappiness and the box denoting poor competition slowing development turning on. So your stuck either keeping an abysmal player with lots of potential on your main team, where they'll get no playing time anyway, or put them in reserve and hope for the best.

So I'm not sure what to do. I have no doubt that the development system works great in the main mode, but perhaps it just doesn't work well in history mode right now. I may be wrong and I'd like to hear other experiences. In my experience, HM isn't allowing enough development, fast enough, especially in reserve. while the existing players regress a bit too rapidly.

Hopefully HM will eventually allow the player the opportunity to recreate the each individual historic player (roughly) while allowing the game to develop its own unique history. That way some players who were stars may not work out as well and others who weren't great successes maybe excel, but on the whole most move down a path similar to their historical courses. Something like that.

Anyway, hopefully this isn't too long. Thanks for reading, Aaron
__________________
Colorado Rockies/New Jersey Devils fan since '81-'82...
became a fan when the Rockies announced they were planning to move to NJ.
AEWHistory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2016, 09:55 AM   #2
redtiger7
Major Leagues
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 328
Thanks: 4
Thanked 63x in 51 posts
We're always told to give players signifigant playing time, (don't play them on the fourth line) but never told just how much playing time they should be getting.
And I agree about the happiness level. The second you sign them they go straight to your main team, and you have to send them down, which makes them unhappy. No one's ever happy being sent down, but how do you develop your rookies without throwing them onto a top line and tanking your season? I'm not really sure what the balance is. You can't even start your rookies in the minors.
redtiger7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2016, 12:55 PM   #3
AEWHistory
Minors (Double A)
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Trenton, NJ
Posts: 154
Thanks: 87
Thanked 61x in 38 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by redtiger7 View Post
We're always told to give players signifigant playing time, (don't play them on the fourth line) but never told just how much playing time they should be getting.
And I agree about the happiness level. The second you sign them they go straight to your main team, and you have to send them down, which makes them unhappy. No one's ever happy being sent down, but how do you develop your rookies without throwing them onto a top line and tanking your season? I'm not really sure what the balance is. You can't even start your rookies in the minors.
I think you just summed up exactly the issues I was trying to raise above is a far more succinct and to the point manner. Thank you very much.

And yes, these are the issues that concern me. Perhaps the FHM development system isn't really geared toward/ready for historical mode. It seems to me that many of these players are destined to sit undeveloped buried on good or even mediocre teams. There is some precedent for this, but it seems to go too far.

I'd love to get more feedback on how other people have experienced this.
__________________
Colorado Rockies/New Jersey Devils fan since '81-'82...
became a fan when the Rockies announced they were planning to move to NJ.
AEWHistory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2016, 02:20 AM   #4
AEWHistory
Minors (Double A)
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Trenton, NJ
Posts: 154
Thanks: 87
Thanked 61x in 38 posts
For anyone interested, the following thread has a nice discussion on player development in FHM:
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...-vs-coded.html

I also realized two other things:

1. In all the above writing I never plainly asked if one can change the player's prime setting? If so, how? It seems like it is always grayed out.

2. While I agree that fighting is being nicely modeled in the game, it isn't clear to me what the effect is other than creating penalty minutes and, sometimes, power plays. Do the teammates of the winner of the fight get a little in-game boost? Does having an goon give intimidation factor? If not, then why take up the roster slot with someone like Shultz? I love fighting, don't get me wrong, but why not just get some shmuck who is okay at dropping the gloves and can actually play hockey instead of using a valuable roster spot on for a hitman on ice skates?
__________________
Colorado Rockies/New Jersey Devils fan since '81-'82...
became a fan when the Rockies announced they were planning to move to NJ.
AEWHistory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2016, 03:47 PM   #5
Adam B
Hockey Community Manager
 
Adam B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 781
Thanks: 46
Thanked 384x in 197 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by redtiger7 View Post
We're always told to give players signifigant playing time, (don't play them on the fourth line) but never told just how much playing time they should be getting.
And I agree about the happiness level. The second you sign them they go straight to your main team, and you have to send them down, which makes them unhappy. No one's ever happy being sent down, but how do you develop your rookies without throwing them onto a top line and tanking your season? I'm not really sure what the balance is. You can't even start your rookies in the minors.
I'm not going to get into the specifics on everything here, because we have discussed this before and some of it can't be discussed, but let me dispel some notions here:


(1) As Sebastian has explained in previous threads, 23 as the default age is set like that for a variety of reasons. However, each players individuals career path is different. A top prospect is not going to hit his stride at 23. Each players is unique. And each player is tune differently.

HOWEVER, the average length of a professional hockey players career in the NHL is about 3 years. Many players never make it, some do for a short time, and very few have lengthy careers. This is becoming even more apparent in the Salary-Cap era where middle-men are falling to the way side and if they wish to continue their careers are going to different leagues across the world. So the age of 23 is set as a basis for often where a player has developed is kind of going to be at. You can push him past with additional training or keep him at that level with training, but at some point, but at some point he will start to regress, although often that is delayed into his 30s.

(2) Jeff mentioned this on a Stream for sure, and I'm pretty sure it was mentioned on here as that one of things he was working on was a better "Happiness" system. Players in 2 are quick to anger and slow to let go of their anger, because no matter what, players personalities dictate where they think they should play. A top prospect/high pick isn't going to be happy if he feels he's wasting away in the minors. Finding a balance is something we've been working on. But they will develop on the Reserve team. If it's a recent pick and you don't intend to play them, you may also want to consider not signing them and letting them continue to develop with their invisible minor league team as well before signing them.
Adam B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2016, 10:06 PM   #6
AEWHistory
Minors (Double A)
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Trenton, NJ
Posts: 154
Thanks: 87
Thanked 61x in 38 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam B View Post
I'm not going to get into the specifics on everything here, because we have discussed this before and some of it can't be discussed, but let me dispel some notions here:


(1) As Sebastian has explained in previous threads, 23 as the default age is set like that for a variety of reasons. However, each players individuals career path is different. A top prospect is not going to hit his stride at 23. Each players is unique. And each player is tune differently.

HOWEVER, the average length of a professional hockey players career in the NHL is about 3 years. Many players never make it, some do for a short time, and very few have lengthy careers. This is becoming even more apparent in the Salary-Cap era where middle-men are falling to the way side and if they wish to continue their careers are going to different leagues across the world. So the age of 23 is set as a basis for often where a player has developed is kind of going to be at. You can push him past with additional training or keep him at that level with training, but at some point, but at some point he will start to regress, although often that is delayed into his 30s.

(2) Jeff mentioned this on a Stream for sure, and I'm pretty sure it was mentioned on here as that one of things he was working on was a better "Happiness" system. Players in 2 are quick to anger and slow to let go of their anger, because no matter what, players personalities dictate where they think they should play. A top prospect/high pick isn't going to be happy if he feels he's wasting away in the minors. Finding a balance is something we've been working on. But they will develop on the Reserve team. If it's a recent pick and you don't intend to play them, you may also want to consider not signing them and letting them continue to develop with their invisible minor league team as well before signing them.
I want to digest your message and type a longer reply later, but something you said hit me as being very important. I always assumed that the "reserve" was the invisible minor league, albeit as an abstraction and not a functioning league, so I never considered leaving picks unsigned. Of course, the other issue is that since I usually start in the early '70s leaving your picks unsigned often means losing them to the WHA. I think what you're saying though is that, except for the relatively short period the WHA is around, it is safe to leave players unsigned and they'll develop on their own better than in the reserves. Is that right?

I think this will change how I play the game quite a bit.
__________________
Colorado Rockies/New Jersey Devils fan since '81-'82...
became a fan when the Rockies announced they were planning to move to NJ.
AEWHistory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2016, 11:50 PM   #7
Adam B
Hockey Community Manager
 
Adam B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 781
Thanks: 46
Thanked 384x in 197 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEWHistory View Post
I want to digest your message and type a longer reply later, but something you said hit me as being very important. I always assumed that the "reserve" was the invisible minor league, albeit as an abstraction and not a functioning league, so I never considered leaving picks unsigned. Of course, the other issue is that since I usually start in the early '70s leaving your picks unsigned often means losing them to the WHA. I think what you're saying though is that, except for the relatively short period the WHA is around, it is safe to leave players unsigned and they'll develop on their own better than in the reserves. Is that right?

I think this will change how I play the game quite a bit.
Don't think of the Historical Mode as "only" having the NHL/WHA. Just think of it as only having to deal with the top teams.

Since I came on at the start of the year, I know one of first things I mentioned to Jeff I would love to see in the future is the inclusion of minor leagues in Historical Mode, but not even talking about players, getting league history (with full schedules), how trades can happen in between leagues, shared minor teams, bought out leagues/shut down mid-season teams, figuring out how to properly implement minor league A, B, and C contracts is incredibly daunting to even think about, let alone get working in Historical Mode. But that's a discussion for another time.

The main thing you need to think of it is like this:

When you draft a player, his league rights are yours. They can eventually expire, and you can see this in the "Unsigned Draftees" under the Team + League Controls Tab.

Your players are typically going to be in 1 of 3 spaces

1 - NHL/WHA team
2 - Minor League aka "Reserve" List - This functions like a minor league. Players stats don't show, but they are gaining experience by being there.
3 - Unsigned (but drafted) - Think of it as the equivalent of still being in like the CHL or NCAA. Players are still playing and gaining experience there as well, even if the stats don't show. You have their rights, you just simply are wasting a contract year on them.

Players develop at different rates, so you may be best to leave them in a variety of spots. Typically though, if you have a guy with 4 or 5 star potential, you don't want him wasting time unsigned or even in the minors. It may be worth biting the bullet on that.


Regardless (with the happiness factor), players can still become upset about being somewhere. Johnny D got upset when you kept him in the minors when he was still 18. Years later, Johnny D is upset about playing 4th line minutes, he's still going to be upset when you send him down to the minors to improve his game and play more because he thinks he should be top 6 on the big club.

But again, addressing how/how long some players are staying angry is something that we were definitely looking at trying to address.
Adam B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2016, 11:04 AM   #8
redtiger7
Major Leagues
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 328
Thanks: 4
Thanked 63x in 51 posts
In my fantasy league there is a minor and junior league. If a draft pick is unsigned, and not playing for a junior team any more, arte they still developing?
redtiger7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2016, 11:06 AM   #9
redtiger7
Major Leagues
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 328
Thanks: 4
Thanked 63x in 51 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam B View Post

(2) Jeff mentioned this on a Stream for sure, and I'm pretty sure it was mentioned on here as that one of things he was working on was a better "Happiness" system. Players in 2 are quick to anger and slow to let go of their anger, because no matter what, players personalities dictate where they think they should play. A top prospect/high pick isn't going to be happy if he feels he's wasting away in the minors. Finding a balance is something we've been working on. But they will develop on the Reserve team. If it's a recent pick and you don't intend to play them, you may also want to consider not signing them and letting them continue to develop with their invisible minor league team as well before signing them.
Yay
redtiger7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:21 PM.

 

Major League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of MLB Advanced Media, L.P. Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with the permission of Minor League Baseball. All rights reserved.

The Major League Baseball Players Association (www.MLBPLAYERS.com ) is the collective bargaining representative for all professional baseball players of the thirty Major League Baseball teams and serves as the exclusive group licensing agent for commercial and licensing activities involving active Major League baseball players. On behalf of its members, it operates the Players Choice licensing program and the Players Choice Awards, which benefit the needy through the Major League Baseball Players Trust, a charitable foundation established and run entirely by Major League baseball players. Follow: @MLB_Players; @MLBPAClubhouse; @MLBPlayersTrust

Out of the Park Baseball is a registered trademark of Out of the Park Developments GmbH & Co. KG

Google Play is a trademark of Google Inc.

Apple, iPhone, iPod touch and iPad are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.

COPYRIGHT © 2017 OUT OF THE PARK DEVELOPMENTS. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright © 2018 Out of the Park Developments