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Old 06-22-2014, 02:03 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by G-Nuke View Post
The thing is they bit off WAY more than they could chew. Between all the different leagues in modern play, historical play and custom play... that's too much for an initial release. The first version should have been about cementing a working modern game with only a handful of leagues playable (Maybe just the NHL, AHL and KHL) and then slowly build on that foundation.


Historical play should have been held off til 2015 (it's my favorite feature but the way it's implemented is just terrible and the research is even worse).


The thing is they've made their bed and now have to pull things together. 2015 should focus on 3 things IMO:


1) The Game Engine
- Enough of this nonsense of a major game update in the final patch. Just give us the fixes to as many issues as possible, update the DB (hopefully including fixes to all the historical data issues I keep bringing up), and maybe add in multi-GMing as a feature so we can override the sketchy GM AI. 2015 should be where you introduce a brand new engine.
2) Interface!
- The UI is horrendous, and doesn't really present stats and screens the way a hockey fan would expect it. The fact that I constantly have to dig for draft info is an example.
3) Customization / Editing
- The researchers for ths game are dropping the ball, mostly because there are just way too many elements to research. Give us editing tools to be able to fix things to our liking. I have to re-rate virtually every player, every season to make the game behave even remotely realistically. Give me some tools and I'll stop bitching about the embarrassingly bad research.


Everything else should be secondary.
And the big problem with comparing this to OOTP 1 is OOTP gradually introduced features like salaries.. coaching.. scouting.. Historical play was pretty much a "play at your own risk" with the Lehman databases. Their features worked. Not only did FHM bite off more than they could chew but many of the features they've introduced either dont work properly or they don't work at all.

If it was MY game, version 1 probably would not have had scouting and would not have had ANY in game engine. Games would be simmed. There is not enough substance to the in game anyway. Make it a management game first, and a coaching game later.
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Old 06-22-2014, 03:57 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by AlpineSK View Post
Historical play was pretty much a "play at your own risk" with the Lehman databases.
Frustrating thing is the equivalent DB is available for hockey. It could be used to atleast get offensive and penalty minute ratings sorted. I've used straight statistically derived formulas to re-rate players already, and they work like a charm. I rebalance stats to account for different scoring levels over time. Every iteration gets me closer and closer to hitting the historical accuracy that is darn close. I've started looking at penalty minutes now.


I get frustrated seeing someone like Mark Tardif sent to the minors in 1979 because the researcher just didn't bother to rate the player. Or having Bobby Orr get barely 40 penalty minutes per year because someones "opinion" places his aggression at 10, when putting it at 20 gets you closer to real life performance.


Give me a tool I can use to enter these ratings myself and bang half my issues with the game are gone.
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Old 06-22-2014, 05:35 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by G-Nuke View Post
The thing is they bit off WAY more than they could chew. Between all the different leagues in modern play, historical play and custom play... that's too much for an initial release. The first version should have been about cementing a working modern game with only a handful of leagues playable (Maybe just the NHL, AHL and KHL) and then slowly build on that foundation.


Historical play should have been held off til 2015 (it's my favorite feature but the way it's implemented is just terrible and the research is even worse).


The thing is they've made their bed and now have to pull things together. 2015 should focus on 3 things IMO:


1) The Game Engine
- Enough of this nonsense of a major game update in the final patch. Just give us the fixes to as many issues as possible, update the DB (hopefully including fixes to all the historical data issues I keep bringing up), and maybe add in multi-GMing as a feature so we can override the sketchy GM AI. 2015 should be where you introduce a brand new engine.
2) Interface!
- The UI is horrendous, and doesn't really present stats and screens the way a hockey fan would expect it. The fact that I constantly have to dig for draft info is an example.
3) Customization / Editing
- The researchers for ths game are dropping the ball, mostly because there are just way too many elements to research. Give us editing tools to be able to fix things to our liking. I have to re-rate virtually every player, every season to make the game behave even remotely realistically. Give me some tools and I'll stop bitching about the embarrassingly bad research.


Everything else should be secondary.

I will just say two things:

A) Having many leagues is researchers' work and it takes minimum time from the developers. Adding new leagues is not killing new features.

B) If the research is so embarrassingly bad, why don't you join us and fix this mess?
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Old 06-22-2014, 06:19 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by geckon View Post
I will just say two things:

A) Having many leagues is researchers' work and it takes minimum time from the developers. Adding new leagues is not killing new features.

B) If the research is so embarrassingly bad, why don't you join us and fix this mess?
G-Nuke you have made some pretty valid points in your post but I am with geckon here. The amount of leagues in the game has nothing to do with the glaring issues in the game. Most of the work for the additional leagues is done by the researchers and not the developers. The researchers should be commended on the hard work they have done on the game.

The new leagues aren't killing the chances of there being new features. They will probably add new features on top of the flawed FHM 2014 game.

I have always wanted things like Expansion, better customisation or a better match engine but not at the expense of a better and working trading and free agent system.

I think that FHM 2015 will probably have a new shiny UI that looks like OOTP Baseball but I fear the new version may represent nothing more than another group of patches to FHM 2014.

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Old 06-22-2014, 08:20 PM   #65
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B) If the research is so embarrassingly bad, why don't you join us and fix this mess?

I've sent full db files to Jeff in the past... sometimes I get a response, sometimes not. I've seen some of the ratings make their way into the game but it's spotty. Frankly I don't think updating the historical ratings are very much a priority.


Now I also charge $150 an hour to do database and business intelligence work... I was willing to help out and volunteer my time, but frankly I just don't see much that would make me give up my time like that. Give me the tools to update the games DB directly, and I'll make sure every player has updated ratings for offense and penalty minutes and I'll eventually take a stab at goalies too. But I'm not going to waste my time in a committee. That never works. Ever.
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Old 06-22-2014, 08:29 PM   #66
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G-Nuke you have made some pretty valid points in your post but I am with geckon here. The amount of leagues in the game has nothing to do with the glaring issues in the game. Most of the work for the additional leagues is done by the researchers and not the developers. The researchers should be commended on the hard work they have done on the game.

The new leagues aren't killing the chances of there being new features. They will probably add new features on top of the flawed FHM 2014 game.

I have always wanted things like Expansion, better customisation or a better match engine but not at the expense of a better and working trading and free agent system.

I think that FHM 2015 will probably have a new shiny UI that looks like OOTP Baseball but I fear the new version may represent nothing more than another group of patches to FHM 2014.


There is code that has to be written to support relegation and foreign player limits and other specific rules for various leagues. How often have we heard about issues with simulating the DEL for instance. It fuzzies up the focus. If they had gotten then game solid for 2-3 leagues and then very quickly started tacking on extra leagues it would be fine.


It's the general approach that as you predict will lead them to "probably add new features on top of the flawed FHM 2014 game" that is frustrating and ultimatey self defeating. Like Jeffs recent post that he is starting to work back the historical database to support earlier start years, when the current years the game does support still have tons of glaring issues (as I discuss here http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...riorities.html)... don't increase your scope until what you have is working well... it's development 101.
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Old 06-22-2014, 09:28 PM   #67
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There is code that has to be written to support relegation and foreign player limits and other specific rules for various leagues. How often have we heard about issues with simulating the DEL for instance.
Or the NHL which apparently does not always function properly..
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Old 06-22-2014, 09:37 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by G-Nuke View Post
I've sent full db files to Jeff in the past... sometimes I get a response, sometimes not. I've seen some of the ratings make their way into the game but it's spotty. Frankly I don't think updating the historical ratings are very much a priority.


Now I also charge $150 an hour to do database and business intelligence work... I was willing to help out and volunteer my time, but frankly I just don't see much that would make me give up my time like that. Give me the tools to update the games DB directly, and I'll make sure every player has updated ratings for offense and penalty minutes and I'll eventually take a stab at goalies too. But I'm not going to waste my time in a committee. That never works. Ever.
That's great that you're trying to help and I really appreciate it.

BTW, we're all volunteers. And I don't know what committees you're talking about.
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Old 06-22-2014, 10:14 PM   #69
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That's great that you're trying to help and I really appreciate it.

BTW, we're all volunteers. And I don't know what committees you're talking about.
if there is more than on person rating players... then it's a committee.
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Old 06-23-2014, 06:48 AM   #70
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if there is more than on person rating players... then it's a committee.
Well.. just pick a league without researcher and you're without committee The responsibilities are split and most of what we do is a work of one researcher.
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Old 06-24-2014, 09:21 AM   #71
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I think I'm done.. I'm gonna uninstall FHM
I would love to hear from Brad or Sebastian with a definite date for patch release, but I'm fairly certain this will fall on deaf ears.. but if it does, then I'm going to act with my wallet and boycott FHM, OOTP and BTS when it comes out.
I've already made that decision, after having bought OOTP or iOOTP a dozen times. Too bad about BTS but until someone enforces a modicum of discipline and takes responsibility for the grave failings FHM, I cannot trust the company to deliver value for my money or my time.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:06 AM   #72
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I've already made that decision, after having bought OOTP or iOOTP a dozen times. Too bad about BTS but until someone enforces a modicum of discipline and takes responsibility for the grave failings FHM, I cannot trust the company to deliver value for my money or my time.
I dont see myself boycotting the entire company to be honest. OOTP is solid year after year after year. I am going to use caution with BTS and probably not buy it until I see favorable reviews for it. iOOTP and FHM I will most likely stay away from unless there are some changes within the company.

Let's hope they pick this thing up....
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Old 06-24-2014, 09:44 PM   #73
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Playoff games not scheduled with this patch. I started this save with a previous patch. With about a month to go in the season I updated to 1.6.19 and no playoff games were scheduled when the season ended. The game eventually crashed on April 19th. Luckily I had saved my progress with patch 1.6.8 and was able to patch back to 1.6.8 and resume from there. And, by the way, yes, playoffs were scheduled. I will upload if you wish.
Jeff, I just completed a test with a NEW fictional game STARTED with V1.6.19 . I made no edits at all but I used the same setup as my original league (22 Teams, 2 conferences, 80 games, Division winners plus two wild cards in each conference). The program crashed on April 19th just as my original game save did. I am sure this will be repeatable if you try it yourself. I'm not sure if it's the league setup or something else that the program doesn't like. I will test further if I have time.
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Old 06-25-2014, 01:40 PM   #74
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A) Having many leagues is researchers' work and it takes minimum time from the developers. Adding new leagues is not killing new features.
Has been mentioned in a couple earlier posts but I too have to disagree with this sentiment. Coding the relegation, player limits, and other league specific rules were mentioned by G-Nuke and I would also bring up other issues regarding interaction between the leagues. Things like difficulties signing draft picks playing in the KHL, players who should be playing in the NHL leaving for foreign leagues (I realize that this one is also tied to other contract management logic/issues), etc. While adding new leagues may not be specifically killing new features I think it's a fair argument that the many leagues take time and attention from work on other aspects of the game (only so many hours in the day one can work) which contributes to lower overall quality. Too much bread, not enough butter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geckon View Post
B) If the research is so embarrassingly bad, why don't you join us and fix this mess?
While I, and I'm sure the majority of FHM players, unabashedly appreciate all the work you volunteer researchers contribute and understand what a massive task it is, it's not really our responsibility as paying customers to help fix this issue. Particularly when, as G-Nuke points out, we don't even have access to proper out-of-game editing tools. Solid research should be part of the development plan and part of the budget, for them to rely on volunteer researchers to handle such a large part of the game is akin to any other buggy/broken game release rushed out the door where the developer essentially "waits for modders to fix it", and I'm sure we have all had at least one instance of begrudging a developer for selling us a game in that condition.
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Old 06-25-2014, 03:43 PM   #75
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Has been mentioned in a couple earlier posts but I too have to disagree with this sentiment. Coding the relegation, player limits, and other league specific rules were mentioned by G-Nuke and I would also bring up other issues regarding interaction between the leagues. Things like difficulties signing draft picks playing in the KHL, players who should be playing in the NHL leaving for foreign leagues (I realize that this one is also tied to other contract management logic/issues), etc. While adding new leagues may not be specifically killing new features I think it's a fair argument that the many leagues take time and attention from work on other aspects of the game (only so many hours in the day one can work) which contributes to lower overall quality. Too much bread, not enough butter.


While I, and I'm sure the majority of FHM players, unabashedly appreciate all the work you volunteer researchers contribute and understand what a massive task it is, it's not really our responsibility as paying customers to help fix this issue. Particularly when, as G-Nuke points out, we don't even have access to proper out-of-game editing tools. Solid research should be part of the development plan and part of the budget, for them to rely on volunteer researchers to handle such a large part of the game is akin to any other buggy/broken game release rushed out the door where the developer essentially "waits for modders to fix it", and I'm sure we have all had at least one instance of begrudging a developer for selling us a game in that condition.
The things you mention with the leagues would have to be solved even if only NHL was playable. The other leagues would have to exist as unplayable and all the things you mention would have to be solved. I suppose you want to have player development and players coming from various nations and leagues at least.

I'm not saying it's your responsibility, I'm mentioning the option. Join the research team and you will get editing tool and options.
I would prefer to have an editor for everyone too but do you want the developers to spend more time with the editor and less time with the game?
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Old 06-25-2014, 05:48 PM   #76
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AFAIK very few non-NA rules are actually in the game. For the most part, I think we're using NA rules with slight tweaks. Certainly from my own research area within Europe, my leagues are nothing like they are in real life. Compare that to the NHL and many of the rules are there already. I don't think adding promotion/relegation (nor any of the handful of Euro-specific rules in the game) can really be blamed for all of the bugs in the game or from distracting the devs from developing the game. I don't think it's a fair argument that the many leagues take time and attention from work on other aspects of the game. It's been said time and again that the late addition of the custom mode primarily contributed to the rushed/buggy features/UI.

Yes, there are some Euro bugs, but that only accounts for a very small number of the issues. Equally, there's more to hockey than the NHL. It's interesting that the vast majority of DB researchers are actually interested in Euro leagues - and IIRC the devs mentioned a while back that most of the people who purchased the game reside outside of North America.

Paying people to research clearly wouldn't work. The devs rely on a very small number of researchers to do the DB work. I don't think many of us would be willing to quit our jobs and work on DB research full time in exchange for a salary. There would be no job security or career prospects - hence why it's normal to rely on volunteer researchers (e.g. OOTPB and Football Manager). If I were to work on the DB full time rather than during evenings/weekends, my research would not be any better - I'd just get it done more quickly. It's not going to improve/affect the accuracy.

Thankfully I suspect this is all moot as I haven't seen anything to indicate that the devs want to drop development of the Euro side of the game. And I'll continue working hard to research my area for the game as long as that remains the case.
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:02 PM   #77
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I don't think a lot of the issues with the game are anything to do with they quality of data or how hard the researchers work. I have said that I think the developers are a talented bunch of guys but I think the flaws in the game are due to how the game handles/processes the data.

This game is fundamentally flawed and is nowhere near the game it should be almost a year after release. The issues that are prevalent have been there since the BETA and aren't anywhere near fixed (Trading, FA's, RFA's etc). There is nothing on the horizon to even indicate that these issues are close to being fixed before the new version (FHM 2015) is worked on.

The answers from the devs is to send in Saved Games so that bugs can be fixed. The main problems are not bugs or fixes they are problems with the game itself, the coding, the procedures used to create the tasks of a Hockey GM.

It has been ages since there was an update from the Dev Team in the update thread. There has been nothing reported from the meetings they are having.

It is all pretty poor.
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:40 PM   #78
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IIRC the devs mentioned a while back that most of the people who purchased the game reside outside of North America.
Steam Charts seems pretty robust.. Is there any way within it or any other tracker that shows the locations of players?

I guess from what I've seen (and that is all I can really go by) the majority of the dynasty reports I have come across with a few exceptions have been NHL franchises. . .
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Old 06-26-2014, 01:35 AM   #79
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Pen is very correct in his assessment. The underlying structure of the game is flawed. And not just what he has covered, but especially the basic hockey stuff- who scores, why, what ratings matter, how hockey is presented, knowing why your team is winning or losing.

This was brought up back in the first beta period but was never addressed, and the usual forum answer was "they know what they are doing, its early, wait for the release...then wait for the patch, wait for the next patch...now wait for the new match engine..." not enough are saying its flawed, and not accurate reflection of the sport on and off the ice. It is not just how the game handles data, but what is being prioritized for the code setup. The actual hockey part was mostly ignored. It's a sports sim wo the sport presented properly.

OOTP should be looking carefully at this before they release their football game. Does that design team have enough knowledge of football? Has someone at least played at Oklahoma or LSU or UCLA? Because without an inside working knowledge of how the sport works, you will get something like this.

Yes most of the sales now are from outside NA. That should raise some eyebrows. If hockey-crazed Canadians aren't buying and playing it. The OOTP customer base will keep buying to support the company as a whole, but without hard-core hockey fans buying it won't have a long shelf-life. Everyone has seemed to miss that. hope will over-ride reality for a long time- but, seems reality check is coming.

Yes my comments are quite negative- but after two full yeas of design if a hockey fan still does not even want to play for 5 minutes, what else can be said?

I like OOTP. I like Marcus. I hope they take a long look at their football realism before that is released. I wish them well with this project- but hockey is the most unique sport to reproduce as so many "un-statistcal" elements go into why one team wins a game or loses. Until that appears this game's sales will struggle at best.

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Old 06-26-2014, 02:12 AM   #80
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I get frustrated seeing someone like Mark Tardif sent to the minors in 1979 because the researcher just didn't bother to rate the player. Or having Bobby Orr get barely 40 penalty minutes per year because someones "opinion" places his aggression at 10, when putting it at 20 gets you closer to real life performance.


Give me a tool I can use to enter these ratings myself and bang half my issues with the game are gone.
When I came on board nearly 1.5 ago there were numerous beta testers, but now, we are small. And since then, most of those have flown the way of the Dodo, so we have to pick up the pieces. We try to locate as many glaring issues as we can. This is a hit or miss process. We don't get paid for this, but we do it anyway because we believe this will be the best hockey sim out there. Is it perfect? Was OOTP 1 perfect?

If you feel you can help out, contact Jeff.

It's like the old adage: if you want something done right, do it yourself. I think that applies here.
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