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Old 05-21-2019, 03:14 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by HRBaker View Post
Ultimately, it seems to me there are basically two types of PT players; 1) those intent at winning at almost any cost, and 2) those that are limited (by choice or circumstances) in resources - BUT - still want a competitive game.

Group 1 spends money, time, analysis, etc. to drive to the top and then takes enjoyment in forever wins (Can I do better than 148 wins?).

Group 2 puts everything except money in the game and either manages to get to Perfect and spends their days being the punching bag of Group 1 teams - OR - finds a level they can compete, maybe moving up and down a couple levels as one season is better than another.

If the outcome description of Group 2 above gave you the option of finding a comfortable place all the time, I would agree that nothing needs to be done - BUT - what usually happens is teams rise to their level of incompetence ("Peter's Principle") and then, any attempt to deflate your team to get back to even competition is seen as "suspect" because a few teams might make a few extra points on your planned demotion.

Well said. I just jumped to silver after a dream year where I made the WS (got swept in the series) Now I'm getting my lunch eaten in silver. Somehow the best pack pull I ever had has a 7.13 ERA after 6 starts in my newly minted silver division. 'll work on the team (no money) and try to improve my roster as I do it. That said, I have ZERO desire to be locked into a silver league forever toiling near .500. If that happens for a few weeks, I will probably do whatever I can to be sent back to bronze.


I have no problems being relegation fodder and being a yoyo going up and down. Sticking at the .500 mark in silver for eternity would cause me to quit the game.

Last edited by TroyF; 05-21-2019 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 05-21-2019, 03:25 PM   #42
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I must be a group 4 then - spends money, time, analysis, but is kind of just holding out for tournaments because the league system isn't well built.

The main reason I think the league system isn't well built is that at its pinnacle (competitive Perfect teams), the leagues are a solved game. There is a best starting 5, best catcher, best shortstop, etc. The best teams are all going to look pretty similar, which is incredibly boring. If you want to build something different (and we almost all do because we get excited about a team idea or just can't afford a rotation that costs 1.5M PP), that's great! You just aren't incentivized to do so and if you do it really well and get a scrappy team to Perfect then you'll just spend most weeks whale watching.

The related, but lesser, reason I think the leagues aren't well built is the lack of awards for putting money, time, and analysis into doing well in the leagues.

Tangentially, I really don't think the tanking the OP describes is scummy. Nobody is getting rich off tanking. The PP awards are so small compared to what it takes to build a team that can tank in the first place that I assume people are doing it more out of frustration that there is no reason for them to seek promotion than some sinister calculus to cheat the system. The team the OP describes sounds fairly expensive - too expensive to have been built by averaging a few extra PP a week from avoiding the playoffs.
Without going into too much more detail all I can say is that the person in question "claims" that this team is free to play. Meaning he/she been doing this for some time. At least since the game came out.
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Old 05-21-2019, 03:45 PM   #43
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OK well that does change things a bit. I shouldn't assume I know how much they are making playing the game that way. If it's a lot more than the players they're competing against then I agree the devs should tell them to stop. I'd much prefer the devs make the relatively simple changes to the mechanics of the awards to take the incentive to tank away, but in the meantime they should manage it if it really is a big PP advantage.
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Old 05-21-2019, 04:38 PM   #44
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Maybe they got a very lucky pull to fund the team? elite cards sold at the start of the game fetched a big premium. I dunno, you seem to be talking with them and know more than we do. My guess is a full team of diamonds/perfects would earn 5-10K points those first four months but then they stop earning the last two while tanking.

the amount of points you can make by investing in live cards that improved to perfect towers over any achievement points anyway
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Old 05-21-2019, 05:18 PM   #45
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The main reason I think the league system isn't well built is that at its pinnacle (competitive Perfect teams), the leagues are a solved game. There is a best starting 5, best catcher, best shortstop, etc. The best teams are all going to look pretty similar, which is incredibly boring. If you want to build something different (and we almost all do because we get excited about a team idea or just can't afford a rotation that costs 1.5M PP), that's great! You just aren't incentivized to do so and if you do it really well and get a scrappy team to Perfect then you'll just spend most weeks whale watching.

The related, but lesser, reason I think the leagues aren't well built is the lack of awards for putting money, time, and analysis into doing well in the leagues.

I think you should lessen your expectation on tournaments because they are bound to be solved in time. No matter the rules, people are going to eventually find the best players for each position and you will be seeing the same things as you did with fully optimized Perfect league team, maybe even more frequently because of the lower cost to be able to fund a full team.

As for the lesser reason, that's just how it is for most games? You can spend an insane amount of time into learning any PVP games and your end-game award would just be the icon of the highest rank in that game -- the equivalent of a perfect league championship. There are no award above that unless said game has an e-sport scene with cash in the prize pool.
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Old 05-21-2019, 05:31 PM   #46
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We haven't yet had the crusade for clear definitions of tanking/losing. Queue up Dogberry in 10... 9... 8...
*runs into the thread late, buttoning his shirt as he trips over his untied shoe laces* -- I'M HERE! I'M HERE! Let me catch my breath and...

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Looking at the issue in this thread specifically, most people just don't like the lack of clarity. What some people see as report-worthy cheating others see as just playing with their own team how they want to. The conversation keeps happening because there is never a final word. Maybe the fact we haven't heard anything is the final word and development is happy just letting people play how they want unless something gets very far over the line, after all you don't want to kick out your customers.
Oh, someone posted on my behalf. Thanks!


Seriously though, if this thread is missing anything, its missing all the people who used to yell and point to the TOS to justify their position that any tanking - ANY tanking - was wrong and in violation of the rules and spirit of the game.
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Old 05-21-2019, 05:36 PM   #47
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Seriously though, if this thread is missing anything, its missing all the people who used to yell and point to the TOS to justify their position that any tanking - ANY tanking - was wrong and in violation of the rules and spirit of the game.
So you miss me then?
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Old 05-22-2019, 12:46 PM   #48
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Would it be that difficult for the devs to simply pull PL Whale teams by managers who have spent over say a fixed amount like $200/$500, and move said teams to specific groupings of Whale PLs?

Do they already do that?

Gacha pack mechanics are always hard to balance along with an AH, esp as a business likes to make money. I'd like to see how tourneys and the app factor in before throwing wrenches at things less than 2 months in.
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Old 05-22-2019, 01:07 PM   #49
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Would it be that difficult for the devs to simply pull PL Whale teams by managers who have spent over say a fixed amount like $200/$500, and move said teams to specific groupings of Whale PLs?

Do they already do that?

Gacha pack mechanics are always hard to balance along with an AH, esp as a business likes to make money. I'd like to see how tourneys and the app factor in before throwing wrenches at things less than 2 months in.

If they do that, the dev better be prepared to get complaint from a $200 spender about $499 spender and how many whales are then intentionally spending $499 to be the kings of $200-$499 league. It's pointless to do this kind of balancing(IMO) because it doesn't work. The same issues remain - people spending less are unhappy about people spending more.

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Old 05-22-2019, 01:09 PM   #50
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Would it be that difficult for the devs to simply pull PL Whale teams by managers who have spent over say a fixed amount like $200/$500, and move said teams to specific groupings of Whale PLs?

Do they already do that?

Gacha pack mechanics are always hard to balance along with an AH, esp as a business likes to make money. I'd like to see how tourneys and the app factor in before throwing wrenches at things less than 2 months in.
On my pack only team I spent my tax return of $200 and can't get out of bronze. I think whales need to spend a lot more than $200 to earn the title because I am most certainly not a whale.
The money spent matters but they still have to be some of the luckiest people around too.
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Old 05-22-2019, 01:17 PM   #51
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Would it be that difficult for the devs to simply pull PL Whale teams by managers who have spent over say a fixed amount like $200/$500, and move said teams to specific groupings of Whale PLs?

Do they already do that?

Gacha pack mechanics are always hard to balance along with an AH, esp as a business likes to make money. I'd like to see how tourneys and the app factor in before throwing wrenches at things less than 2 months in.
I could see many making $199 the limit they spend if done. Regardless of where the cutoffs are, there will be either people intentionally spending just under the limit, or the low end of the range wanting to be segregated even further from the higher end of the range.
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Old 05-22-2019, 01:19 PM   #52
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Anyone who thinks $200 is a whale hasn't seen Perfect Leagues.
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Old 05-22-2019, 01:41 PM   #53
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There should be no cutoffs. Life isn't fair so stop complaining already.
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Old 05-22-2019, 01:50 PM   #54
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As said many times, a separate tier based on paying will NEVER happen because part of the value of spending money is getting your strong team to beat up on the plebs below you. Doing that will only reduce the amount of people who buy points or the amount of points paying players buy.

I do think there is merit however to a "champions league" of all perfect league winners plus maybe the previous champions league playoff teams, or whatever number is needed to get a full league. That could essentially function as the same thing and gives a higher award for the top whales to strive for.
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Old 05-22-2019, 02:27 PM   #55
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I agree with dkgo... A single "champion" league of the 30 "best" teams makes a lot of sense. There would be a promotion from the world series winner for every perfect league (there are currently 19 such leagues) and the same number would be relegated back to perfect from the "champion" league every season. This would give the whaliest whales something to shoot for and reduce the presence of these whaliest whales in the perfect level.

The only thing about this is that along with this, they will need to put a cap on the number of perfect leagues... 20 might be a good level, which means the top 10 teams each year in that champion league get to stay there.

The best way to cap the level of perfect leagues is to increase the number of teams relegated back to diamond each week from perfect (while leaving pro/rel at other levels the same). My calculations show that setting rel to 4 in the perfect leagues (while having 3 or 4 for promotion from diamond leagues) should accomplish that. .
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Old 05-22-2019, 02:31 PM   #56
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I was just thinking; if they make this "champion" league visible to everybody, so anybody can view games or view boxscores from that league, it could be useful for encouraging people to see what the "best of the best" looks like, and the strategies they use.
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Old 05-22-2019, 02:50 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornbreaker View Post
Would it be that difficult for the devs to simply pull PL Whale teams by managers who have spent over say a fixed amount like $200/$500, and move said teams to specific groupings of Whale PLs?

Do they already do that?

Gacha pack mechanics are always hard to balance along with an AH, esp as a business likes to make money. I'd like to see how tourneys and the app factor in before throwing wrenches at things less than 2 months in.
In PT 19 when these arguments raged, the word from the top is that limits will never happen. A dumping ground was formed for all posts that went into this discussion/argument. They are popping up here now so I will not be surprised if another black hole is formed in the forum universe.
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Old 05-22-2019, 02:55 PM   #58
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I was just thinking; if they make this "champion" league visible to everybody, so anybody can view games or view boxscores from that league, it could be useful for encouraging people to see what the "best of the best" looks like, and the strategies they use.

I do like the idea. With tournaments and collections still being worked on I would imagine the earliest it would get on the roadmap would be next version, assuming OOTP designers even like the idea. That's a wild guess on my part. I think it has great merit and would be fun. Kris could go over the numbers for the champions league and maybe cover the world series in "This week in Perfect Team" each week It would be the ultimate bragging rights and just getting there would be pretty cool.
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Old 05-22-2019, 03:11 PM   #59
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I hope they don't change the current system. However, a tournament with only PL champions eligible would be interesting.
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Old 05-22-2019, 04:28 PM   #60
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I think you should lessen your expectation on tournaments because they are bound to be solved in time. No matter the rules, people are going to eventually find the best players for each position and you will be seeing the same things as you did with fully optimized Perfect league team, maybe even more frequently because of the lower cost to be able to fund a full team.

As for the lesser reason, that's just how it is for most games? You can spend an insane amount of time into learning any PVP games and your end-game award would just be the icon of the highest rank in that game -- the equivalent of a perfect league championship. There are no award above that unless said game has an e-sport scene with cash in the prize pool.
I completely agree that tournaments are likely to eventually be solved. At least, however, I can take part in solving them without spending over a thousand dollars, unlike solving Leagues. And solving a game with rules to restrict your choices is just a lot more fun than solving a game where your most meaningful choices are just whether you shell out for the best guy at a given position.

With regard to other games, there are a lot of different approaches to rewarding players based on PvP performance. In some open world games (e.g., Eve Online) players find ways to create their own value. In many card games (e.g., Hearthstone, Gwent, MTG Online) you earn more packs in addition to cosmetics. In gatcha games (e.g., Fire Emblem Heroes) you might earn unique rewards that make you more competitive and can't be bought (but which you can't compete for without being a whale). Granted, there are many games where you just earn clout, but these also tend to be the games where you can't buy a competitive edge (e.g., Forntnite, League of Legends).

At the moment, Perfect Team requires players to spend money to compete at the highest levels as though it were a gatcha game, but rewards players for their performance as though they were playing a MOBA. I personally hate gatcha games and hope OOTP don't go with that kind of reward model. I think the online card game model is probably most suited for Perfect Team.
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