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Old 12-06-2018, 01:19 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Watts View Post
I should have included this
Oops. Have trouble picking up on sarcasm most of the time.
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:26 PM   #22
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Oops. Have trouble picking up on sarcasm most of the time.
Probably helps if it's good sarcasm
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:07 PM   #23
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Seriously? Trout is not 25 players. He is but one. Do you want to know why the Angels haven't made the playoffs, and haven't done well when they get there while he's been in their uniform? Many reasons actually, but it mostly revolves around the rest of the roster. Starting pitchers that break all over the place. Albert Pujols playing merely like an average MLBer over his seven seasons there while being paid to be a superstar. The last three years in particular, he's been hot, wet garbage. Speaking of hot, wet garbage, look at the rest of the position players (not including Andrelton Simmons, who is starting to mix offense in with his absolutely sublime defensive skills). The argument that a player can "will his team to the playoffs" is...well...hot, wet garbage. He has to have some players around him, and outside of Simmons, he's on a freaking island.

Over the years, you seem intent on proving to me Trout's divinity. Haven't you learned by now?

Besides, all you did was prove my point. Trout alone is nothing to fear. Thanks a bunch.
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Old 12-06-2018, 07:41 PM   #24
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Over the years, you seem intent on proving to me Trout's divinity. Haven't you learned by now?

Besides, all you did was prove my point. Trout alone is nothing to fear. Thanks a bunch.
I do think you both were in agreement. I think the Mariners made the correct decision to start over. Too many strong teams ahead of them. Don't forget the Rays either, they became hot at the end.
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Old 12-06-2018, 07:41 PM   #25
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We asked if Harper is a 500 million dollar player.
If given the opportunity 29 other MLB franchises would like to make Trout a 500 million dollar player.

There is an argument to be made that he is the best hitter of all time.

Last edited by rudel.dietrich; 12-07-2018 at 01:19 AM.
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Old 12-07-2018, 12:22 PM   #26
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It is not Mike Trout's fault that he was drafted by a West Coast team nobody gives a rat's arse about, that gave a generous deal to a certain superstar batter that didn't age well, thus perpetually can't afford to upgrade all their needs, and also haven't been able to keep a single starting pitcher healthy for as long as I am watching baseball. His greatness ought to transcend the organization's misery.
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Old 12-07-2018, 12:42 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich View Post
We asked if Harper is a 500 million dollar player.
If given the opportunity 29 other MLB franchises would like to make Trout a 500 million dollar player.

There is an argument to be made that he is the best hitter of all time.
Absolutely.

Nobody questions Ted Williams greatness yet he won nothing in his career. Baseball is clearly a sport where one player alone has little influence. Anyone remember how many games the Phillies won in 1972? Steve Carlton won 27 of them with 30 CG.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:42 PM   #28
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Absolutely.

Nobody questions Ted Williams greatness yet he won nothing in his career. Baseball is clearly a sport where one player alone has little influence. Anyone remember how many games the Phillies won in 1972? Steve Carlton won 27 of them with 30 CG.
It's completely obvious that Williams and Carlton were complete and utter chumps though, as Williams was never able to use his grit and determination to drag his team to a championship, and Carlton's brilliance couldn't save the sad sack 1972 Phillies. Had Carlton been more of a man, he would of course have led them to a championship that year, but alas he failed. Chumps I say.
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Old 12-08-2018, 12:50 PM   #29
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When Ted played, only one team from each league made the playoffs. Carlton was a pitcher and affected, at best, a fifth of the season.

Trout plays in an era when 1/3 of the league makes the playoffs. The fact that he played in one series shows he is nothing to fear when making plans for your franchise. Astros? Yes. Trout? No. Again, thanks for agreeing with me.
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Old 12-08-2018, 12:59 PM   #30
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You completely missed the point. Especially with Carlton.
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So much for personality. Albert Belle, a complete nut job was never traded and was the highest paid player in the game, twice!

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Old 12-08-2018, 01:04 PM   #31
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You completely missed the point. Especially with Carlton.
What'd I miss? Enlighten me.
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Old 12-08-2018, 02:52 PM   #32
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When Ted played, only one team from each league made the playoffs. Carlton was a pitcher and affected, at best, a fifth of the season.

Trout plays in an era when 1/3 of the league makes the playoffs. The fact that he played in one series shows he is nothing to fear when making plans for your franchise. Astros? Yes. Trout? No. Again, thanks for agreeing with me.
Actually, thank you for proving my point by comparing the greatness of Trout with the greatness of an entire team, especially one as supremely talented as the Astros. Even though I think he's the greatest player of his generation (and it's not really all that close IMHO), I'm not quite prepared to compare him to an entire team. I think that's a bit hyperbolic don't you? After all, as for as I know the man can't pitch and play all the positions simultaneously. Glad to see you can appreciate his greatness. Make sure you catch his career and appreciate it while you can because players like him come around once in a generation. All the best.
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Old 12-08-2018, 03:26 PM   #33
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Perhaps I should refine my statement about the Mariners potentially being a bit wary of having Trout in the division. While the Angels having Trout certainly doesn't guarantee team success (indeed, it hasn't brought them much), Trout is capable of taking an otherwise average team and making them a borderline playoff contender if he continues routinely posting something like 9 WAR seasons.

From the Mariners perspective, this means that the Angels just need to have an average non-Trout portion of their team to be a ~90 win team. Add that to the Astros being a 95-win team for the foreseeable future, and you have a difficult situation.
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Old 12-08-2018, 06:01 PM   #34
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Carlton was a pitcher and affected, at best, a fifth of the season.
How many pitcher/hitter confrontations did he have in 1972? (1351). How many hitter/pitcher confrontations did the leading hitter have in 1972? (Pete Rose: 731). I think it might be fair to say that Carlton had more of an impact on his team's fortunes than any position player could. Yes, it's harder to perform every day over the grind of a 162 game schedule (in this case about 154ish due to labour issues), but it is absolutely exhausting to do what starting pitchers do once every four days (Carlton made 41 of 156 possible starts for the Phillies that year).
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Old 12-08-2018, 06:27 PM   #35
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Actually, thank you for proving my point by comparing the greatness of Trout with the greatness of an entire team, especially one as supremely talented as the Astros. Even though I think he's the greatest player of his generation (and it's not really all that close IMHO), I'm not quite prepared to compare him to an entire team. I think that's a bit hyperbolic don't you? After all, as for as I know the man can't pitch and play all the positions simultaneously. Glad to see you can appreciate his greatness. Make sure you catch his career and appreciate it while you can because players like him come around once in a generation. All the best.
I know what you're trying to say. "I picked a debate with you needlessly because I didn't actually take the time to think about what you wrote."


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Perhaps I should refine my statement about the Mariners potentially being a bit wary of having Trout in the division. While the Angels having Trout certainly doesn't guarantee team success (indeed, it hasn't brought them much), Trout is capable of taking an otherwise average team and making them a borderline playoff contender if he continues routinely posting something like 9 WAR seasons.

From the Mariners perspective, this means that the Angels just need to have an average non-Trout portion of their team to be a ~90 win team. Add that to the Astros being a 95-win team for the foreseeable future, and you have a difficult situation.
I understand your point. However, the Angels showed last year they were just as good w/Trout as w/o. If I remember correctly, they were 1 game under .500 in games he played and when he didn't. So to me, the impact Trout has on the division isn't all that big. If this was the NBA, a single player could make opponents think that way. But not in baseball. It's not worth going into a salary dump.

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How many pitcher/hitter confrontations did he have in 1972? (1351). How many hitter/pitcher confrontations did the leading hitter have in 1972? (Pete Rose: 731). I think it might be fair to say that Carlton had more of an impact on his team's fortunes than any position player could. Yes, it's harder to perform every day over the grind of a 162 game schedule (in this case about 154ish due to labour issues), but it is absolutely exhausting to do what starting pitchers do once every four days (Carlton made 41 of 156 possible starts for the Phillies that year).
If you want to play with the numbers like that, sure. As they say, "Lies, Damn Lies, & Statistics". The numbers I'm looking at is that he played approx. 35 out of 162 games. Even if the Phils won 25 of his starts, they would still need to go 65-62 to reach 90 wins. They still wouldn't have made the playoffs, even if the team was slightly better than average. One player is no one to fear when making plans for your franchise's season.
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Old 12-09-2018, 01:25 AM   #36
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Do sports teams really tank or are they just bad teams?
It seems to be a bad move. You are risking losing fans and maybe even
signing good free agents for the price of a draft pick. Plus for the player he could be throwing away a great payday by not putting up good stats.
Especially if its a player that is declining or close to the end and needs better stats just to stay in the game.
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Old 12-09-2018, 10:55 AM   #37
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Do sports teams really tank or are they just bad teams?
It seems to be a bad move. You are risking losing fans and maybe even
signing good free agents for the price of a draft pick. Plus for the player he could be throwing away a great payday by not putting up good stats.
Especially if its a player that is declining or close to the end and needs better stats just to stay in the game.
Players don't tank. It's the franchise that does. The players nearly always are trying to win. that's just the nature of being a professional competitor. The front office tanks by purposefully making the team worse by selling present assets for future ones. Knowing what they have left will not be competitive. They then play younger, but not quite ready players, and bench veteran past their prime players.
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Old 12-09-2018, 03:48 PM   #38
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It's completely obvious that Williams and Carlton were complete and utter chumps though, as Williams was never able to use his grit and determination to drag his team to a championship, and Carlton's brilliance couldn't save the sad sack 1972 Phillies. Had Carlton been more of a man, he would of course have led them to a championship that year, but alas he failed. Chumps I say.
Has there ever been an MLB team where we can say, "player X willed that team to a championship"? Or even just to the playoffs? To the point that without that player the team would only be an average team? I never liked the idea behind the MVP that many hold that the winner should only come from a team that makes the playoffs and the above argument seems to make the case against it. Even if it may rarely happen, it just seems so silly a random criteria to honour a player over honouring whoever was the best player overall that year.
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Old 12-09-2018, 04:29 PM   #39
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Has there ever been an MLB team where we can say, "player X willed that team to a championship"? Or even just to the playoffs? To the point that without that player the team would only be an average team? I never liked the idea behind the MVP that many hold that the winner should only come from a team that makes the playoffs and the above argument seems to make the case against it. Even if it may rarely happen, it just seems so silly a random criteria to honour a player over honouring whoever was the best player overall that year.
Not for a whole season. You can get hot during a period of time and "will" a team for a 2 week period or so. Ted Williams had one of those during an MVP year. I think they lost to the Cards that season. Pujols, Beltran & Daniel Murphy had playoff series like that. But not a 162 game period.
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