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Old 11-01-2012, 10:28 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by sprague View Post
which meant it was hard to check them, as the checking line assigned to ted lindsay, sid abel and gordie howe really did not want to have to hit them-
That reminded me of the story that Gordie Howe was playing a charity match or similar when he was in his late 50's or early 60's and the opposing coach offered a stupid amount of money to anyone who would fight him, but no-one did.
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:30 PM   #42
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Hockey today is much more dangerous for stars than it was in the goon days of the 70's and 80's. If someone ran Bobby Clarke the Flyers wouldn't send Schultz after the other teams goon, he would take the head off the other teams best player. Thats why you rarely saw stars get cheap shotted then. There is no respect for players these days cuz there is no accountability. Punks like Matt Cooke wouldnt have been tolerated 30 years ago. In the 70's and 80's there was no where near the cheap shots and head hunting there is today because goons 'policed' the ice. Sure there were more fights, more brawls, but even with the fighting the game was much safer from serious injury than today and you could thank the goons for much of that. Dave Schultz nearly beat the pi$$ out of Dale Rolfe for accidentally hitting Barry Ashbee in the eye with a shot, ending Ashbee's career. Thats how things were settled in those days, now both teams just try to out cheapshot each other.

Gotta disagree with you. I am a longtime Flyers fan, and the Matt Cooke-type player has been around for decades. He has not only been tolerated, he has been successful. Bobby Clarke would actually be a prime example of a pest from the past. Another classic example who wore a Flyers' sweater was The Rat, Kenny Linesman. Yeah, it definately was a different game years ago, but pests were around both then and now.
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:42 PM   #43
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Hockey today is much more dangerous for stars than it was in the goon days of the 70's and 80's. If someone ran Bobby Clarke the Flyers wouldn't send Schultz after the other teams goon, he would take the head off the other teams best player. Thats why you rarely saw stars get cheap shotted then. There is no respect for players these days cuz there is no accountability. Punks like Matt Cooke wouldnt have been tolerated 30 years ago. In the 70's and 80's there was no where near the cheap shots and head hunting there is today because goons 'policed' the ice. Sure there were more fights, more brawls, but even with the fighting the game was much safer from serious injury than today and you could thank the goons for much of that. Dave Schultz nearly beat the pi$$ out of Dale Rolfe for accidentally hitting Barry Ashbee in the eye with a shot, ending Ashbee's career. Thats how things were settled in those days, now both teams just try to out cheapshot each other.
Ugh. Here we see Rolfe, accidentally, hit a player in the eye, yet Rolfe a non-fighter gets pummeled by that big asshole Schultz. What a lovely part of the game.

And the presence of Schultz allowed someone like Clarke to NON-accidentally run around cheap shotting people.
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:15 AM   #44
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Gotta disagree with you. I am a longtime Flyers fan, and the Matt Cooke-type player has been around for decades. He has not only been tolerated, he has been successful. Bobby Clarke would actually be a prime example of a pest from the past. Another classic example who wore a Flyers' sweater was The Rat, Kenny Linesman. Yeah, it definately was a different game years ago, but pests were around both then and now.
There is a HUGE difference between what Clarke and Linseman did than what the Cookes of today do. Clarke would swat at your ankles and trip you up, Linseman would spit at you and yap like crazy, no way would they try to headhunt you. You simply cant compare pests with headhunters. IMHO the onset of headhunting occurred with players like Kasparaitus and Dale Hunter, players who intentionally tried to hospitalize other players.
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:36 AM   #45
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I am a longtime Flyers fan, and the Matt Cooke-type player has been around for decades. He has not only been tolerated, he has been successful. Bobby Clarke would actually be a prime example of a pest from the past.
I too am a longtime Flyer fan (my hockey memory goes back to 1976) and IMO there is absolutely no comparison between Clarke and Cooke...Clarke was the NHL MVP three different times, and averaged over a point per game over his career, played in the All-Star game 8 times, and he's #42 overall in career NHL points...Clarke had so much more to his game than Cooke (so did Linesman!), Clarke was ranked the 24th best player of all time by the Hockey News, and Clarke is in the Hockey Hall of Fame (the only way Cooke gets in is if he buys a ticket!)
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:37 AM   #46
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yes this is some of the ideas i was wanting to bring accross
it is such a unique aspect of the sport- and only really appreciated today at the highest professional levels (or major junior) where fights still happen. And as mentioned never captured properly in any game to date. Just having 2 players "fight" and recive 5 minute penalties may look nice or realistic in a box score, but not really- because that fight could have had- based on various factors, no impact, some impact, great impact on the rest of the game. Been there many times- been part of how it changed a game, or how it did little (other than whoop up the crowd a bit).
Is there documented evidence that fights can have measurable impact on the remainder of a contest? As a hockey researcher, I've never seen it (although my focus is on goaltending, so it may just be that I've never come across it).

Or is it just a combination of sample size and memory bias?
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:01 PM   #47
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Dave Schultz nearly beat the pi$$ out of Dale Rolfe for accidentally hitting Barry Ashbee in the eye with a shot, ending Ashbee's career.
Not sure why you think Ashbee's injury (in game 4) connected to Schultz's fight with Rolfe (in game 7)...I've actually got the game on DVD, and Rolfe punched Kindrachuk (gloved) in the face to start the confrontation - then Shultz stepped in and Rolfe held his own initially by pushing Shultz back into the glass (with Shultz definitely hair pulling in response), but a single Shultz uppercut dazed Rolfe and then he was pummelled with multiple punches

Rolfe want to the dressing room "for repairs" but did return - IMO the fight started on the ice in game 7 because Shultz was sticking up for his teammate who'd been punched (i.e. it had nothing to do with Ashbee's injury)...as was widely reported at the time, the significance of the fight was that no one from the Rangers stepped in to stop the beatdown (back in 1974 most NHL teams stood up for their teammates, but the Rangers were known as a "soft team") - I'm not trying to praise/promote what occured, but I think this "sticking up for teammates" is a significant difference when comparing "old time hockey" with "modern hockey" (and so if possible the new game should try and include this in the historical mode)
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:41 PM   #48
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Is there documented evidence that fights can have measurable impact on the remainder of a contest?
I guess it depends on what you mean by documented – "scientific proof" has to be testable/repeatable, and neither historical nor modern hockey stats are testable/repeatable

Despite the multitude of stats out there today, there is still significant interpretation of these stats (and thus differences of opinion on the stats meaning)

If you accept anecdotal evidence from those in the game there’s a long history of “evidence” IMO

The site “dropyourgloves” NHL Fights has all kinds of data on fighting, but nothing indicating the documented effect of individual fights that I’m aware of (IMO the “documented effect” of any single action in a hockey game [like a big hit or spectacular save or a spectacular goal] would be really tough to determine)
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:24 AM   #49
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"Old Time Hockey"

I've read this thread with interest, there have been several good suggestions made and I too eagerly look forward to FHM. I think the suggestion for intimidation and aggression scores plus the coaches line selection should matter.

I grew up during the early 70's Flyers heyday and ate,drank, breathed the Flyers. I kinda laugh at the view presented about Dave Schultz... He WAS a goon but also a pretty good hockey player if you watched. He had been a scorer in Major Juniors and in his minor league days his coach told him his path to the NHL was to be an enforcer. Sooo...

I played street hockey against Terry Crisp's kids when they lived in NJ. I was fortunate to meet several of the Flyers of that generation and had all kinds of signed sticks,sweaters etc. before the memorabilia business ruined it all.

Pest? Bobby Clarke - definitely had mad skills but was one of the dirtiest players of that generation. Bob Kelly - "Hound" was a true pest! Orest Kindrachuk was a mixed player but mostly fought his own fights. I always thought the game 7 fight was for both incidents - the opportunity was too good to pass up for Shultzie!

There were some "goons" that also were pretty good hockey players too, Boston's Terry OReilly, Detroit's Gordie Howe, NYI Clark Gilles, Capitals Chris Simon (drafted by Flyers and a part of the Lindros trade to Quebec), NJ's Scott Stevens, Toronto's Tiger Williams, etc. I think painting goons as no-talents doesn't give the strategy of the game its due either.

To me it's kinda the same as changing to no red line on the rink, the pansy boys like cherry picking but dont like getting hit? go knitting instead! I loved a good 2-1 hard hitting game and didnt mind the left wing lock because good teams cound beat it. Unfortunately I'm in the minority there - so I live with it.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:12 AM   #50
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Is there documented evidence that fights can have measurable impact on the remainder of a contest? As a hockey researcher, I've never seen it (although my focus is on goaltending, so it may just be that I've never come across it).

Or is it just a combination of sample size and memory bias?
Here is the funny thing about hockey. You could look at stats all day and read them verbatim, but at the end of the day pretty much any one that's played hockey will tell you that a well timed fight or protection for ones team is a huge morale boost. Pretty hard to get an accurate stat as most fights are based on the situation and it isn't always based on who wins or loses.

As I stated before. I think fights are more for setting a tone. It's not about that one game, but about being a team. I know if someone spears me and no one would fight for me. I wouldn't want to be on that team. If there was a fight and my player won and still lost that game 7-1. I bet that team would do better in the long run than a team that would have done nothing. (Even if they won that game for not taking any penalties in that situation.)

P.S. Have to disagree with GleNn big time. Cooke and Clarke aren't even on the same level and don't play alike. Cooke is a clown that is just out to hurt people and lacks skill. Clarke was a hard nosed player who had a ton of talent. (Picture Dustin Brown, but with even more talent.)

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Old 11-05-2012, 05:16 PM   #51
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Am glad this thread is having such discussion around this topic. I started it not as a debate about "morality" of the issue, but around the fact that this area of the game has never been properly included in any hockey board or computer game yet. And to give people a chance to offer various views of ways to incorperate the accuracy into game play...

And yes, this is an area that basically if one has not played at a high level- under tremendous pressure to win, in front of 10,000 people- you really can not know what a fight can do, or in other cases not do.
I have at least 3 moments from my own career where a particular fight I was in made a big change in the game- two in our team's favour, one that basically lost us the game from a morale perspective.

Still looking forward to what the developers have to say about what they are doing with the game. But just finally having a game where their can actually be a bench clearing brawl ect to realistically portray history would already give them a +1 in my books
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:35 PM   #52
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And yes, this is an area that basically if one has not played at a high level- under tremendous pressure to win, in front of 10,000 people- you really can not know what a fight can do, or in other cases not do.
I have at least 3 moments from my own career where a particular fight I was in made a big change in the game- two in our team's favour, one that basically lost us the game from a morale perspective.
It's an interesting topic, to be sure. My career topped out in college, so I've always played in leagues where fighting was prohibited. How many people reading this thread played hockey at a high enough level to have experience here?

Do I think that it has an effect? Yes.

How much of an effect? I'm not sure.

And since this is a game that's going to be modeled at the micro level (similar to OOTP), that's something that would have to be determined reasonably well. How this is calibrated would be very important (and probably would need to be a customizable slide bar or something).
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:16 PM   #53
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It's an interesting topic, to be sure. My career topped out in college, so I've always played in leagues where fighting was prohibited. How many people reading this thread played hockey at a high enough level to have experience here?

Do I think that it has an effect? Yes.

How much of an effect? I'm not sure.

And since this is a game that's going to be modeled at the micro level (similar to OOTP), that's something that would have to be determined reasonably well. How this is calibrated would be very important (and probably would need to be a customizable slide bar or something).
you are about right there no...it is about the only aspect of hockey that one needs to be at the highest level to have really seen it- even high levels leagues in europe are not conducive, as fights tend to be isolated incidents usually late in the third period thus have little impact on teh game as a whole, except settling scores

however your reply does make an interesting point. i assume you mean us college hockey- and that is a unique animal- because of the fans. anyone who has not experienced live a us college hockey game has missed something. the student fans are intense, and in certain arenas- like yost in michigan- intimidate young opposing players the way chicago stadium used to do to nhl rookies. my first visit to a us college game- at clarkson- was an amazing experience.
not too often is their really a home ice advantage due to fans, but some are so mercilous (and damn funny) on visiting goalies, some just fold up like a suitcase in the first period
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:47 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
It's an interesting topic, to be sure. My career topped out in college, so I've always played in leagues where fighting was prohibited. How many people reading this thread played hockey at a high enough level to have experience here?

Do I think that it has an effect? Yes.

How much of an effect? I'm not sure.

And since this is a game that's going to be modeled at the micro level (similar to OOTP), that's something that would have to be determined reasonably well. How this is calibrated would be very important (and probably would need to be a customizable slide bar or something).
I played High School and originally if we fought we'd get suspended from class but our principal changed that rule saying that sometime it's required. Good guy.

I played rep for years and a few games for junior C but then had an injury and had to stop playing. I truely believe that some fights really do give your teammates a lift the same as a big hit. But what really helps teams bond is a fight after a dirty play by a teammate. The player who sticks up for his player doesn't even have to win. He gains alot of respect and it definately helps the team knowing that everyones got everyone elses back. Helps with the team chemistry and bonding. We had a bench clearing brawl once, pure craziness but we all got together for a party after and had alot of laughs.

But it's definately a hard aspect for a game.
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:58 AM   #55
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I played High School and originally if we fought we'd get suspended from class but our principal changed that rule saying that sometime it's required. Good guy.

I played rep for years and a few games for junior C but then had an injury and had to stop playing. I truely believe that some fights really do give your teammates a lift the same as a big hit. But what really helps teams bond is a fight after a dirty play by a teammate. The player who sticks up for his player doesn't even have to win. He gains alot of respect and it definately helps the team knowing that everyones got everyone elses back. Helps with the team chemistry and bonding. We had a bench clearing brawl once, pure craziness but we all got together for a party after and had alot of laughs.

But it's definately a hard aspect for a game.
i fully agree, hardest part of hockey to represent in a game form, because even though there are fights that happen once in a while in other sports, it is a very unique thing in hockey. even the possability of a fight is enough to scare some people off.
And what you say there is true, but that would be too much for most any game to simulate, but i agree 100%. It will be interesting how they come up with fight wins and what it means within gameplay itself. And hopfully their will be no random goofyness in the other games where a John Kordic fights Steve Kasper, and they just get their 5 minute penalties so it looks nice in the statistics at the end to say, oh look there a fight in my game, its so realistic. In such a case Kasper is missing a few games with a busted up face, or more likely Jay Miller or Lyndon Byers has arrived 1 second later. So again will be interesting how it all plays out from the standpoint of game play.
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Old 11-07-2012, 08:26 PM   #56
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i fully agree, hardest part of hockey to represent in a game form, because even though there are fights that happen once in a while in other sports, it is a very unique thing in hockey. even the possability of a fight is enough to scare some people off.
And what you say there is true, but that would be too much for most any game to simulate, but i agree 100%. It will be interesting how they come up with fight wins and what it means within gameplay itself. And hopfully their will be no random goofyness in the other games where a John Kordic fights Steve Kasper, and they just get their 5 minute penalties so it looks nice in the statistics at the end to say, oh look there a fight in my game, its so realistic. In such a case Kasper is missing a few games with a busted up face, or more likely Jay Miller or Lyndon Byers has arrived 1 second later. So again will be interesting how it all plays out from the standpoint of game play.
i really think that's exactly how it will be done. Lets face it, at the other end just because your player wins a fight should your team get a boost? That's not right either. Perhaps it wakes certain types of players up on your team but certainly not the entire team. It's impossible to portray accurately because each person responds differently to different actions. There is no denying though that it revs up the fans at the game! That in iteself can give some guys motivation.
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:33 AM   #57
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Of course, there will be fights in the game and the players will have a fighting attribute. Winning a fight will give the corresponding team a moral-boost. However, the main focus will be the hockey part and not the fighting. We will not try to incorparate an ultra-complex algorithm to simulate realistic fighting.
I have to say I'm disappointed. I have not followed hockey for at least 30 years, so I'm sure my opinion does not count for much, but I am interested in this game because I love text-based sports management sims.

Fighting is one of the things that turns me off about hockey. We have a minor league team here in Cleveland, Ohio, called the Monsters, and they promote them heavily because the owner is also the owner of the basketball team, the Cavaliers.

The commercials for the Monsters always show a bit of exciting-looking hockey, and invariably two or more guys fighting. The fight clips are as long as the game play clips.

I know fighting is a part of hockey, but it's something I think is truly silly. When I want to see a fight, I watch boxing or MMA. Hockey fights irritate the heck out of me.

I want to see a hockey game, not a brawl between two heavily padded guys on skates!
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:36 AM   #58
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I have to say I'm disappointed. I have not followed hockey for at least 30 years, so I'm sure my opinion does not count for much, but I am interested in this game because I love text-based sports management sims.

Fighting is one of the things that turns me off about hockey. We have a minor league team here in Cleveland, Ohio, called the Monsters, and they promote them heavily because the owner is also the owner of the basketball team, the Cavaliers.

The commercials for the Monsters always show a bit of exciting-looking hockey, and invariably two or more guys fighting. The fight clips are as long as the game play clips.

I know fighting is a part of hockey, but it's something I think is truly silly. When I want to see a fight, I watch boxing or MMA. Hockey fights irritate the heck out of me.

I want to see a hockey game, not a brawl between two heavily padded guys on skates!
I agree with much of what you said. I think it's silly myself, but many other don't.

My hope is that there is a setting to no allow fighting in a league but it's not a deal breaker with me or anything
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:22 AM   #59
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I have to say I'm disappointed. I have not followed hockey for at least 30 years, so I'm sure my opinion does not count for much, but I am interested in this game because I love text-based sports management sims.

Fighting is one of the things that turns me off about hockey. We have a minor league team here in Cleveland, Ohio, called the Monsters, and they promote them heavily because the owner is also the owner of the basketball team, the Cavaliers.

The commercials for the Monsters always show a bit of exciting-looking hockey, and invariably two or more guys fighting. The fight clips are as long as the game play clips.

I know fighting is a part of hockey, but it's something I think is truly silly. When I want to see a fight, I watch boxing or MMA. Hockey fights irritate the heck out of me.

I want to see a hockey game, not a brawl between two heavily padded guys on skates!
There's a different appeal to minor league hockey, though. I don't think it's fair to compare minor leagues that are out to get people in the door at almost any cost (including promoting fights) to a simulation game.
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:36 PM   #60
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Will the game respect the fact that fighting is not allowed so much in European leagues? Thanks.
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