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Old 09-17-2018, 04:21 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Sharkn20 View Post
I am more than happy to support the game whether it has an online feature or not in the first release, Jim and the OOTP you have my support whatever the direction is, if we have to wait a little bit longer, then we will wait. We can be playing other games, but we will comeback to play online when the version is ready while enjoying playing SP.

Go FOF + OOTP!
Yeah, I think skipping mp would be the wrong move, but fwiw I love FOF 8 and canít wait for whatever we get (I understand there are a few mechanical issues, but the improvements outweigh these for me). Just wanted to make the point that if it meant waiting a bit longer for everyone to be happy, that seems like a good move

Frankly, having tried everything else on the market, I trust that FOF will still be the best out there.

I donít play mp anyway so have no stakes in this. It just seems like a major existing feature to be missing from any release. And apologies to the ootp/solecismic team; this is what you get for giving us the updates we crave 😄
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:05 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Andreas Raht View Post
Hey guys, again - we want an online mode in FOF, too. But we do not make promises now. FOF9 and FOF8 can be installed and run side-by-side. If FOF9 initially has no online league mode, and if the online league mode is essential for you, it's obviously your choice not to buy FOF9 until we added the online league mode.

We'll do our best to add it. I just wanted to let you know that MP is on our list, because you were asking for it! But at the same time I had to make clear that we do not make promises at the moment.
Thank you for understanding.
This sounds to me to be the really rational way to go about it.
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:11 PM   #63
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Doesn't surprise me in the least, be ready for an editor, and the code will probably be revamped. OOTP has always catered to the SP community, the new versions, new features, a lot for the SP, and few features for the online community. It appears they will follow the blueprint of OOTP, and why not they've done well. AS for me, SP doesn't interest me whatsoever, so I will not be purchasing it. As far as an editor it can lead, as has lead to many underhanded things going on, I.E. cheating. If the new game has an editor you had better know the commish of the league real well. Sad to see FOF headed in this direction.

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Old 09-17-2018, 05:35 PM   #64
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So what's your take on this Ben, I would guess that having to potentially wait a year for an MP version is not going to benefit your leagues in the slightest? At the same time i guess you have to tow the OoTP line as you're a moderator?
I don't have to toe any lines. Markus and I have 15+ years of trust and understanding built up. I've spoken out dozens of times in the past when there have been OOTP decisions with which I've disagreed, yet he asked me to moderate this board. There's no conflict between my role as mod and my role as someone pushing the development team to make FOF the best it can be.


That said, a few thoughts...


1. My number one reaction is.... {yawn}. I say that because I can't help but think this is not much more than "under promise/over deliver." Even with Andreas's comments today, I'll be quite surprised if there's not MP in FOF 9.0. I'm not alarmed by this post.

2. I've long stated that the only reason I play MP is that the SP AI isn't strong enough to keep me interested. If Jim continues to improve the SP AI and/or continues to add tools to support house rules to the point where it's challenging enough as a SP-only game for me, I'd drop to one MP league, possibly zero. I'd much rather play at my own pace in my own way, but the AI makes doing so too easy, so MP is a "necessity" for that reason.

3. I thought it was an ill-timed post from Andreas. If I'd been asked, I'd have suggested not bringing up that possibility until the feature set gets released, and then if there's no MP, say it then with an explanation of why, secure in the knowledge that a fair bit of the hubbub about no MP would have been drowned out in the discussion of the excitement over the SP game. (The OOTP forum denizens on the whole have long been far more SP-centric than those of FOF.) As things stand now, there's either going to be an extended period of needless grumbling (if there ends up being MP in the release,) or some people who *might* have been willing to try a SP-only version had it been sprung on them as a surprise will have had weeks to stir each other's anger and dig in their heels in refusal to give whatever is announced a chance. In short, I suspect that MP will now become a "cause" for some folks, if it hasn't already. (I mean, this is fairly obvious, given the number of folks posting complaints in this thread as either their first or close to their first posts ever at OOTP. It's a concerted "organized" effort--a cause.) However, even though I think the post was a mistake...

4. ...ultimately, the long-term impact of it will be minimal, even if they surprise me and the release doesn't have MP. The MP crowd is completely replaceable if they make a solid SP game, which I suspect they will do. As I stated earlier in this thread, folks like me who are either fully or nearly MP-only comprise a tiny fraction of the customer base. A properly done SP-only FOF with an OOTP interface should move more than 5K units, quite possibly 10K or more. A few dozen people upset that they don't get their #1 feature isn't going to put a dent in that. And even from a "forum buzz" perspective, as I mentioned earlier, these forums tend to have a ton more SP than MP discussion. We're replaceable. If they release a great SP game, they could wait several years to add MP, have every single current MP-only person refuse to buy another version in frustration, yet still easily surpass the number of people playing MP at its height. Adding the OOTP interface opens up a whole new world of potential customers who simply wouldn't touch FOF because of how it looked. I get that some MP-only people are getting emotional because they feel slighted, but as a business decision, I can't rationally argue with placing other features before MP.

5. They'd sell *more* games initially if they could put MP in this release. No question about that. The main thing they have to consider, as Andreas correctly referenced, is this:
Quote:
Priority #1 is a stable game that is fun to play to get good reviews and many happy customers and sales.
I work in the software industry. It's a constant tug-of-war to balance "solid product where all items work well" with "more features to increase the size of the tent." As resources are not unlimited, you must sacrifice some of the former to achieve more of the latter, and vice versa. Finding the correct balance in that tension isn't easy. Release a product with every feature known to man but the features don't work well together, are buggy, etc., and you'll get high initial sales, but bad reviews, and it won't do as well long-term. Release a product with too few features, and you restrict your potential audience too much for maximum sales. Find the right balance, and you're golden.




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Old 09-17-2018, 05:44 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben E Lou View Post
I don't have to toe any lines. Markus and I have 15+ years of trust and understanding built up. I've spoken out dozens of times in the past when there have been OOTP decisions with which I've disagreed, yet he asked me to moderate this board. There's no conflict between my role as mod and my role as someone pushing the development team to make FOF the best it can be.


That said, a few thoughts...


1. My number one reaction is.... {yawn}. I say that because I can't help but think this is not much more than "under promise/over deliver." Even with Andreas's comments today, I'll be quite surprised if there's not MP in FOF 9.0. I'm not alarmed by this post.

2. I've long stated that the only reason I play MP is that the SP AI isn't strong enough to keep me interested. If Jim continues to improve the SP AI and/or continues to add tools to support house rules to the point where it's challenging enough as a SP-only game for me, I'd drop to one MP league, possibly zero. I'd much rather play at my own pace in my own way, but the AI makes doing so too easy, so MP is a "necessity" for that reason.

3. I thought it was an ill-timed post from Andreas. If I'd been asked, I'd have suggested not bringing up that possibility until the feature set gets released, and then if there's no MP, say it then with an explanation of why, secure in the knowledge that a fair bit of the hubbub about no MP would have been drowned out in the discussion of the excitement over the SP game. (The OOTP forum denizens on the whole have long been far more SP-centric than those of FOF.) As things stand now, there's either going to be an extended period of needless grumbling (if there ends up being MP in the release,) or some people who *might* have been willing to try a SP-only version had it been sprung on them as a surprise will have had weeks to stir each other's anger and dig in their heels in refusal to give whatever is announced a chance. In short, I suspect that MP will now become a "cause" for some folks, if it hasn't already. (I mean, this is fairly obvious, given the number of folks posting complaints in this thread as either their first or close to their first posts ever at OOTP. It's a concerted "organized" effort--a cause.) However, even though I think the post was a mistake...

4. ...ultimately, the long-term impact of it will be minimal, even if they surprise me and the release doesn't have MP. The MP crowd is completely replaceable if they make a solid SP game, which I suspect they will do. As I stated earlier in this thread, folks like me who are either fully or nearly MP-only comprise a tiny fraction of the customer base. A properly done SP-only FOF with an OOTP interface should move more than 5K units, quite possibly 10K or more. A few dozen people upset that they don't get their #1 feature isn't going to put a dent in that. And even from a "forum buzz" perspective, as I mentioned earlier, these forums tend to have a ton more SP than MP discussion. We're replaceable. If they release a great SP game, they could wait several years to add MP, have every single current MP-only person refuse to buy another version in frustration, yet still easily surpass the number of people playing MP at its height. Adding the OOTP interface opens up a whole new world of potential customers who simply wouldn't touch FOF because of how it looked. I get that some MP-only people are getting emotional because they feel slighted, but as a business decision, I can't rationally argue with placing other features before MP.

5. They'd sell *more* games initially if they could put MP in this release. No question about that. The main thing they have to consider, as Andreas correctly referenced, is this:I work in the software industry. It's a constant tug-of-war to balance "solid product where all items work well" with "more features to increase the size of the tent." As resources are not unlimited, you must sacrifice some of the former to achieve more of the latter, and vice versa. Finding the correct balance in that tension isn't easy. Release a product with every feature known to man but the features don't work well together, are buggy, etc., and you'll get high initial sales, but bad reviews, and it won't do as well long-term. Release a product with too few features, and you restrict your potential audience too much for maximum sales. Find the right balance, and you're golden.



Terrific point of view. Thanks as usual Ben for taking your time.

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Old 09-17-2018, 05:53 PM   #66
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In the end, understand that I will be available and ready to discuss everything that goes into (or out of) FOF9 thoroughly and completely.

While there have been some discussions of the role of MP in FOF9, because the FOF8 approach is not multi-platform, no final decisions have been made.

Because of this post today and because of Markus' recent post, I think people deserve some sort of clarification of progress. I will do my best to post, before this weekend, everything I can. Including an answer tailored more specifically to what FlexD posted above as it relates to one of the major issues involved in how MP is implemented in FOF8.

I guess I can assume that people don't like an interface designed for long game sessions and multiple monitors? Oh, well, time to scrap that approach. Part of me hoped I was revolutionizing the industry, but that part of me understands that I was just annoying many of you. GUI has never been much of a "viva la revolution" arena.

So... as the Europeans like to say... keep calm and carry on. I will provide that update this week. If not, I deserve some torches and pitchforks.
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Old 09-17-2018, 06:05 PM   #67
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I really like the option of opening various Windows at the same time. Sad it won't be there anymore, it was a great implementation.
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Originally Posted by Solecismic View Post
In the end, understand that I will be available and ready to discuss everything that goes into (or out of) FOF9 thoroughly and completely.

While there have been some discussions of the role of MP in FOF9, because the FOF8 approach is not multi-platform, no final decisions have been made.

Because of this post today and because of Markus' recent post, I think people deserve some sort of clarification of progress. I will do my best to post, before this weekend, everything I can. Including an answer tailored more specifically to what FlexD posted above as it relates to one of the major issues involved in how MP is implemented in FOF8.

I guess I can assume that people don't like an interface designed for long game sessions and multiple monitors? Oh, well, time to scrap that approach. Part of me hoped I was revolutionizing the industry, but that part of me understands that I was just annoying many of you. GUI has never been much of a "viva la revolution" arena.

So... as the Europeans like to say... keep calm and carry on. I will provide that update this week. If not, I deserve some torches and pitchforks.
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Old 09-17-2018, 06:21 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Solecismic View Post
In the end, understand that I will be available and ready to discuss everything that goes into (or out of) FOF9 thoroughly and completely.

While there have been some discussions of the role of MP in FOF9, because the FOF8 approach is not multi-platform, no final decisions have been made.

Because of this post today and because of Markus' recent post, I think people deserve some sort of clarification of progress. I will do my best to post, before this weekend, everything I can. Including an answer tailored more specifically to what FlexD posted above as it relates to one of the major issues involved in how MP is implemented in FOF8.

I guess I can assume that people don't like an interface designed for long game sessions and multiple monitors? Oh, well, time to scrap that approach. Part of me hoped I was revolutionizing the industry, but that part of me understands that I was just annoying many of you. GUI has never been much of a "viva la revolution" arena.

So... as the Europeans like to say... keep calm and carry on. I will provide that update this week. If not, I deserve some torches and pitchforks.
as a somewhat longtime costumer, it doesn't surprise me that Jim took his time to post to this board. this is a great move.

and as some quarterback would say, r-e-l-a-x . we'll be fine with a great game soon.
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Old 09-17-2018, 09:29 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Solecismic View Post
I guess I can assume that people don't like an interface designed for long game sessions and multiple monitors? Oh, well, time to scrap that approach. Part of me hoped I was revolutionizing the industry, but that part of me understands that I was just annoying many of you. GUI has never been much of a "viva la revolution" arena.
I won't go into too much detail because it's been said elsewhere (FOFC, mostly) but the scroll-over aspect of the menu was my main gripe, which was mostly fixed by adding the option to click through instead. That said, I think it's always been the look and colors that have turned many people off. It looks Internet 1.0-esque. The clean look is in. That's what OOTP brings in my mind.

Personally the amount of clicking in gameplanning drives me up a wall and messes with my carpal tunnel like Diablo does. (Drag and drop instead of clicking plays in/out?)

Anyway, appreciate the post after Andreas dropped a bit of a bomb out of nowhere. Looking forward to your next update.
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:44 PM   #70
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I fall into the camp that omitting multi-player from the initial release of the OOTP version would be a major mistake. I am a software professional as well (43 years and counting). I’ve observed many software companies driven by bottom line financial decisions only to regret those decisions later.

Also, I’m not quite sure how marginalizing the opinion of others who were compelled to post recently is beneficial. By the way, Jim made his 2nd post today - just stating the facts.

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Old 09-17-2018, 11:21 PM   #71
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[Deleted, off-topic]

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Old 09-18-2018, 03:34 AM   #72
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[Deleted, off-topic]
The plan is roll out a new forum with FOF9, specifically with MP participants in mind. If no MP is forthcoming we can discuss alternatives. I hoped this move to OOTP would spark a change where a neutral could govern but obviously not.

FOFC had pretty much ground to a halt due to the ongoing issues so perhaps a split will allow everyone to get on and enjoy the game.

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Old 09-18-2018, 06:59 AM   #73
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Key points to keep in mind...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

1. My number one reaction is.... {yawn}. I say that because I can't help but think this is not much more than "under promise/over deliver."
100 per cent this. I in fact stated earlier in this thread weeks ago that the most likely reason no one from OOTPD had spoken up on this thread yet was because the details were still being ironed out and promising/assuring something before you know it is 100 per cent in the game is a bad idea.

Quote:

3. I thought it was an ill-timed post from Andreas.
Also this. I'm not entirely sure why it was decided to say something now, especially when it is potentially still possible MP will be included. I don't think this thread had swelled out of proportion where an answer was needed and now it has become an unnecessary issue for the reasons Ben mentioned (it is either moot if MP gets in or becomes a toxic negativity on the forums if it won't get in - and that still won't change the developer priority that a solid, stable game is first choice.

Quote:

4. ...ultimately, the long-term impact of it will be minimal, even if they surprise me and the release doesn't have MP. The MP crowd is completely replaceable if they make a solid SP game, which I suspect they will do.
Harsh, but likely true, from a purely sales/numbers perspective. Here's the thing though - people can't look at it like OOTPD is TRYING to get rid of/replace the MP community. That's simply not the case. I can guarantee all the devs want MP in the game and I can also almost guarantee it will be in the game at some point, whether that's initial release, a future patch or a future version.

I feel like people who get angered by these types of things have it in their head that developers are choosing superfluous details/additions ahead of adding MP like "hmm we could add MP now but let's go with 3d end zone logos instead!" This is not the case.

As Andreas has made clear and as I have seen in the past when working for OOTPD, ensuring a stable, workable game is always the key priority before any "extras" are added outside the main feature set. As you can imagine with a combining of these two franchises there are probably more kinks to iron out than say a normal FOF or OOTPD realease.

What good is the addition of MP if the game is buggy or unstable?

I was the PR/marketing director for Franchise Hockey Manager for a while and that game experienced the same thing - online wasnt able to be included right away because developer resources needed to be focused on stability and the core of the game. It was certainly not optimal and there was a lot of grumbling but it worked out for the best in the long run.
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Old 09-18-2018, 07:31 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole View Post
Harsh, but likely true, from a purely sales/numbers perspective. Here's the thing though - people can't look at it like OOTPD is TRYING to get rid of/replace the MP community. That's simply not the case. I can guarantee all the devs want MP in the game and I can also almost guarantee it will be in the game at some point, whether that's initial release, a future patch or a future version.
Bingo, and fwiw, I wasn't trying to be harsh, just factual. I'm part of that community, and I do want MP for myself. I mean, I have faith in Jim/Andreas/Chris/Markus/etc., but I don't expect they'll hit the Holy Grail of AI Awesomeness that causes me to cut back or drop MP in this release, either, so I'm probably gonna want to stick around in MP.

You also make an excellent point in highlighting that we're not talking about a case of "OOTP and Solecismic don't want to do that" but instead a case of...
Quote:
what good is the addition of MP if the game is buggy or unstable?
They've promised a game in 2018, and they don't have unlimited resources. If it doesn't happen in 9.0, my strong assumption would be that it's simply because they didn't have time to add it *and* get the nuts and bolts right.

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Old 09-18-2018, 07:46 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Cole View Post
Key points to keep in mind...

Harsh, but likely true, from a purely sales/numbers perspective. Here's the thing though - people can't look at it like OOTPD is TRYING to get rid of/replace the MP community. That's simply not the case. I can guarantee all the devs want MP in the game and I can also almost guarantee it will be in the game at some point, whether that's initial release, a future patch or a future version.

I feel like people who get angered by these types of things have it in their head that developers are choosing superfluous details/additions ahead of adding MP like "hmm we could add MP now but let's go with 3d end zone logos instead!" This is not the case.

As Andreas has made clear and as I have seen in the past when working for OOTPD, ensuring a stable, workable game is always the key priority before any "extras" are added outside the main feature set. As you can imagine with a combining of these two franchises there are probably more kinks to iron out than say a normal FOF or OOTPD realease.

What good is the addition of MP if the game is buggy or unstable?

I was the PR/marketing director for Franchise Hockey Manager for a while and that game experienced the same thing - online wasnt able to be included right away because developer resources needed to be focused on stability and the core of the game. It was certainly not optimal and there was a lot of grumbling but it worked out for the best in the long run.
As we have said before if we have to wait for a good while for a MP version there might not be a MP community left to play it, leagues are not full and it gets harder each day to find people to fill the empty teams mainly due to people not liking FOF8. I would also guess without the ability to covert FOF8 to FOF9 some leagues will stay with FOF8 anyway because of the many years of history that would be lost.

I don't feel the MP community thinks that MP will be replaced by flashy end zone logo's, we probably think the game is being pushed out without it (if that happens) so OoTP get sales quickly. Jim cared about us when he was Solesismic, i quite understand now that the decision makers at OoTP probably care about making money!

As for you saying what is the point of making a game that is buggy or unstable, just delay the release and please get MP in correctly, I doubt the game will be out before Christmas so it's not like huge sales will be lost by a delay of a month or so.

As for Hockey Manager i guess there was no MP community prior to the game release unlike with FOF, so if that is correct your point is irrelevant I am afraid!
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Old 09-18-2018, 07:53 AM   #76
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As we have said before if we have to wait for a good while for a MP version there might not be a MP community left to play it, leagues are not full and it gets harder each day to find people to fill the empty teams mainly due to people not liking FOF8. I would also guess without the ability to covert FOF8 to FOF9 some leagues will stay with FOF8 anyway because of the many years of history that would be lost.

I don't feel the MP community thinks that MP will be replaced by flashy end zone logo's, we probably think the game is being pushed out without it (if that happens) so OoTP get sales quickly. Jim cared about us when he was Solesismic, i quite understand now that the decision makers at OoTP probably care about making money!

As for you saying what is the point of making a game that is buggy or unstable, just delay the release and please get MP in correctly, I doubt the game will be out before Christmas so it's not like huge sales will be lost by a delay of a month or so.

As for Hockey Manager i guess there was no MP community prior to the game release unlike with FOF, so if that is correct your point is irrelevant I am afraid!
A new MP community will form with the players that buy the game to play SP and eventually have access to MP. I don't think that this Franchise will live or die by selling 50 or 75 more copies to those who are "threatening" to leave the Franchise if it doesn't have MP in it.

I prefer a solid game which progresses with next editions than a game that is rushed to be thrown out there with a buggy MP in it all day long.

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Old 09-18-2018, 08:16 AM   #77
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Removed the last four posts of some of you sniping back at forth at one another. Everyone retreat to your corners. There's no need for personal stuff like that.
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:41 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by thefatcat View Post
As we have said before if we have to wait for a good while for a MP version there might not be a MP community left to play it.
I anticipate that FOF under the OOTP banner will sell multiple times more copies than any previous version of FOF. How large is the current FOF MP community? I'm going to guess it's less than a few hundred people. Honestly, there will easily be hundreds of new MP players once the game is released. And even those who feel alienated by a potential lack of MP I'm sure will still be part of that group once the game is out.

Quote:
we probably think the game is being pushed out without it (if that happens) so OoTP get sales quickly. Jim cared about us when he was Solesismic, i quite understand now that the decision makers at OoTP probably care about making money!
Naturally the goal of any company is to make money. However, to paint OOTPD as some corporate monster that only cares about the bottom line is quite frankly ridiculous. The customer support and care for the customer shown by OOTPD over years of successful business has been second to none.

Quote:
As for you saying what is the point of making a game that is buggy or unstable, just delay the release and please get MP in correctly, I doubt the game will be out before Christmas so it's not like huge sales will be lost by a delay of a month or so.
If MP players are only going to get that functionality on a certain date, but the rest of the game would be ready a couple months earlier, why would they delay releasing the game (and getting feedback/patches/fixes) for everyone who doesn't care about MP?


Quote:
As for Hockey Manager i guess there was no MP community prior to the game release unlike with FOF, so if that is correct your point is irrelevant I am afraid!
Irrelevant? I literally explained why the company had likely taken this stance on not over promising until they know it will be in for sure, because they had been burned by this before. And once again as much as it may hurt to hear, the stability of the game will always be prioritized over the desires of the existing FOF MP community.
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:49 AM   #79
thefatcat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole View Post
I anticipate that FOF under the OOTP banner will sell multiple times more copies than any previous version of FOF. How large is the current FOF MP community? I'm going to guess it's less than a few hundred people. Honestly, there will easily be hundreds of new MP players once the game is released. And even those who feel alienated by a potential lack of MP I'm sure will still be part of that group once the game is out.

Naturally the goal of any company is to make money. However, to paint OOTPD as some corporate monster that only cares about the bottom line is quite frankly ridiculous. The customer support and care for the customer shown by OOTPD over years of successful business has been second to none.

If MP players are only going to get that functionality on a certain date, but the rest of the game would be ready a couple months earlier, why would they delay releasing the game (and getting feedback/patches/fixes) for everyone who doesn't care about MP?

Irrelevant? I literally explained why the company had likely taken this stance on not over promising until they know it will be in for sure, because they had been burned by this before. And once again as much as it may hurt to hear, the stability of the game will always be prioritized over the desires of the existing FOF MP community.

I never painted OoTP as a corporate monster. Well thanks for the replies if you are correct i think the MP community certainty knows were it stands now
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:56 AM   #80
Cole
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Originally Posted by thefatcat View Post
Jim cared about us when he was Solesismic, i quite understand now that the decision makers at OoTP probably care about making money!
You implied that OOTPD doesn't care about the customer and only cares about making sales, which again, is completely ridiculous.
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