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Old 05-24-2019, 11:57 AM   #1
drksd4848
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Baseball rule question

A pitcher retires the side in top half of 6th with the game tied. In the bottom half of the of the 6th inning, the pitcher's team takes the lead. In the top half of the 7th, a new pitcher takes the mound and finishes the rest of the game with the lead and the team wins

Who gets credit for the win? The pitcher who finishes the top of the 6th (remembering that his team takes the lead in the bottom of the 6th) or the pitcher who starts the top of the 7th and finishes the game with the lead?

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Old 05-24-2019, 12:10 PM   #2
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The pitcher who finished the top half of the 6th inning should get the win.
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Old 05-24-2019, 12:12 PM   #3
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Pitcher A gets the win. Pitcher B gets the save.
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Old 05-24-2019, 01:09 PM   #4
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Ah ha! That's what I thought! Unfortunately, that's not what happened in OOTP.

Here's the situation: same scenario as above. I'm playing with bullpen rules.

Pitcher A finishes the top of the 6th with the game tied and he is gassed. I have pitcher B warming in the bullpen. During the bottom half of the 6th, the team takes the lead and pitcher B is ready. I know I'm going to go to him, so before the inning is over I make the pitching change; I don't want pitcher B to tire in the bullpen or cool off if I sit him.

Pitcher B starts the 7th and gets the win.



So.... isn't that an error in OOTP?
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Old 05-24-2019, 01:15 PM   #5
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What is happening in your game is correct.
You are inserting the pitcher into the game before the 6th inning ends.

Baseball teams 99.9999% of the times do not make a pitching change that way.
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Old 05-24-2019, 01:22 PM   #6
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Baseball rule question

Quote:
Originally Posted by drksd4848 View Post
Ah ha! That's what I thought! Unfortunately, that's not what happened in OOTP.

Here's the situation: same scenario as above. I'm playing with bullpen rules.

Pitcher A finishes the top of the 6th with the game tied and he is gassed. I have pitcher B warming in the bullpen. During the bottom half of the 6th, the team takes the lead and pitcher B is ready. I know I'm going to go to him, so before the inning is over I make the pitching change; I don't want pitcher B to tire in the bullpen or cool off if I sit him.

Pitcher B starts the 7th and gets the win.



So.... isn't that an error in OOTP?


More information needed. It sounds like the opposing team either tied or took the lead, and then your team subsequently pulled out the win. In this scenario, the second pitcher gets the win.

EDIT: On the flip side, I didnít see where you effectively put the new pitcher in the game in the bottom of the sixth. That would have also caused the game to think the reliever is the winning pitcher.

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Last edited by slugga27; 05-24-2019 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 05-24-2019, 02:37 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by slugga27 View Post
It sounds like the opposing team either tied or took the lead,

Nope. Game was tied going into the top of the 6th. My team took the lead in the bottom of the 6th and held on the rest of the way.


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EDIT: On the flip side, I didn¬’t see where you effectively put the new pitcher in the game in the bottom of the sixth. That would have also caused the game to think the reliever is the winning pitcher.

I was playing with the warmup rule on. After he finished the top of the 6th, my pitcher was gassed and I knew I had to pull him for the 7th. My reliever's status was "warming" going into the middle of the 6th and he was "ready" during the bottom of the 6th. I didn't want him to tire while warming in the bullpen, and I didn't want to sit him and until the top of the 7th because I didn't want him to cool off. That's why I made the change in the during the my teams at bat.



Had I not been playing with the warmup rule, I would have made the pitching change in the top of the 7th.


So, yes, I think what happened was I "confused" the game by inserting the new pitcher during the bottom of the 6th, and that's why he got credit for the win.
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Old 05-24-2019, 02:53 PM   #8
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You can always make the pitching change at the top of the next inning. Relievers warming will not tire during your half-inning if they just got warm - it may say "Tiring..." at the start at the next inning, but that only means that they will start tiring if they stay in the pen.
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Old 05-24-2019, 03:14 PM   #9
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You can always make the pitching change at the top of the next inning. Relievers warming will not tire during your half-inning if they just got warm - it may say "Tiring..." at the start at the next inning, but that only means that they will start tiring if they stay in the pen.

Ah... I didn't know that! You learn something every day. I figured I needed to get him in the game as soon as he was ready or else he'd crap out in the bull pen. Or he would cool of and be stale if sat him, then brought him in.

BTW, the way you guys have revamped the warmup rule, it makes it so much fun to use. I always play the game with it on now!
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Old 05-24-2019, 03:47 PM   #10
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So out of curiousity, did you insert the reliever before your team took the lead while you were hitting?
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Old 05-24-2019, 04:22 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyWR View Post
So out of curiousity, did you insert the reliever before your team took the lead while you were hitting?

Good question. This may sound crazy, but I actually can't remember. All I was thinking was, oh he's ready. I'd better put him in before he wears out. But I can't recall if we had the lead or not at that point.

I wonder if that would have made a difference. I should go back and look at the game log.
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Old 05-24-2019, 04:32 PM   #12
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I assume (understanding that may be foolish) that he went in prior to the lead change, but who knows, I've never thought to check something like this before so I wonder if it matters.
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Old 05-24-2019, 08:22 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drksd4848 View Post
Ah ha! That's what I thought! Unfortunately, that's not what happened in OOTP.

Here's the situation: same scenario as above. I'm playing with bullpen rules.

Pitcher A finishes the top of the 6th with the game tied and he is gassed. I have pitcher B warming in the bullpen. During the bottom half of the 6th, the team takes the lead and pitcher B is ready. I know I'm going to go to him, so before the inning is over I make the pitching change; I don't want pitcher B to tire in the bullpen or cool off if I sit him.

Pitcher B starts the 7th and gets the win.
So let me get this straight: Pitcher A completes the top of the sixth. In the bottom of the sixth, your team takes the lead and you insert Pitcher B in the lineup? Why would anyone do that? You may have been the first manager in the history of baseball to have accomplished that feat. Congratulations!

Anyway, here is the relevant part of the rule:
Quote:
9.17 Winning and Losing Pitcher(a) The official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher that pitcher whose team assumes a lead while such pitcher is in the game, or during the inning on offense in which such pitcher is removed from the game, and does not relinquish such lead...
So the pitcher who completes the top half of an inning gets the benefit of any runs scored by his team in the bottom half of the inning, even if he is replaced in the lineup that inning by (egads!) a relief pitcher.

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So.... isn't that an error in OOTP?
Well, it's an error on somebody's part, I'll give you that.
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Old 05-24-2019, 08:55 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drksd4848 View Post
Good question. This may sound crazy, but I actually can't remember. All I was thinking was, oh he's ready. I'd better put him in before he wears out. But I can't recall if we had the lead or not at that point.

I wonder if that would have made a difference. I should go back and look at the game log.


It definitely makes a difference. Trust me.


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Old 05-24-2019, 09:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joefromchicago View Post
So let me get this straight: Pitcher A completes the top of the sixth. In the bottom of the sixth, your team takes the lead and you insert Pitcher B in the lineup? Why would anyone do that? You may have been the first manager in the history of baseball to have accomplished that feat. Congratulations!

Anyway, here is the relevant part of the rule:
So the pitcher who completes the top half of an inning gets the benefit of any runs scored by his team in the bottom half of the inning, even if he is replaced in the lineup that inning by (egads!) a relief pitcher.


Well, it's an error on somebody's part, I'll give you that.
The rule says REMOVED not REPLACED..
A pinch hitter/runner will remove a player/pitcher from the game.
Bringing in a new pitcher, replaces said player.
That's a big difference.

I have been watching baseball for over 50 years, I have never once, seen a team, insert a pitcher into the lineup before he was needed to pitch.
Any baseball manager that actually did that would be fired.
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Old 05-24-2019, 09:51 PM   #16
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Quote:
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The rule says REMOVED not REPLACED..
A pinch hitter/runner will remove a player/pitcher from the game.
Bringing in a new pitcher, replaces said player.
That's a big difference.
No, there's no difference at all. At least not in the minds of the folks who wrote the rules of baseball, and who made no distinction between someone removed from the lineup and someone replaced in the lineup.

Look at it this way. Pitcher A is on the mound at the end of the top half of the sixth inning with the score tied. In the bottom of the sixth, an outfielder pinch hits for him. Does the pinch-hitter get credit for a game played in the outfield just because he is an outfielder and he appeared in the game as a pinch-hitter? No, not unless he takes his position in the outfield in the top of the seventh. Now, imagine that, instead of an outfielder, Pitcher B pinch-hits for Pitcher A. Does Pitcher B get credit for a game pitched just because he pinch hit? No, he doesn't.

In fact, a pinch-hitter isn't anything except a pinch-hitter unless and until he takes the field. A pitcher who pinch hits for another pitcher doesn't become the pitcher of record until he steps on the mound and throws a pitch. Until then, he's just a pinch-hitter, and he can't get credit for a win until he takes the field. To illustrate: with the score tied, starting Pitcher A is removed from the lineup in the bottom of the sixth and Pitcher B pinch hits for him. Pitcher B hits a home run. In the top half of the next inning, Pitcher C takes the mound to pitch the rest of the game for the home team, and that team never relinquishes the lead. Who gets the win? If you think it's Pitcher B, you definitely need to re-read the rules.
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Old 05-24-2019, 09:56 PM   #17
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Yeah, the new pitcher shouldn't count until the start of the next inning, and whatever situation is in position then would matter (lead/save situations). This is one case where if you play it out manually, we treat the situation at the moment you drag in the pitcher, not when the next inning begins. Would love to fix it, but it's fairly complicated to make sure we don't accidentally double-count things or forget to apply the rules properly the next inning. The only other thing we could do would be to literally prevent you from actually dragging the pitcher to the spot or setting someone as the new pitcher while you're batting, but not sure if that would actually be a better thing to handle or people would just be frustrated by the change.
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Old 05-24-2019, 10:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joefromchicago View Post
No, there's no difference at all. At least not in the minds of the folks who wrote the rules of baseball, and who made no distinction between someone removed from the lineup and someone replaced in the lineup.

Look at it this way. Pitcher A is on the mound at the end of the top half of the sixth inning with the score tied. In the bottom of the sixth, an outfielder pinch hits for him. Does the pinch-hitter get credit for a game played in the outfield just because he is an outfielder and he appeared in the game as a pinch-hitter? No, not unless he takes his position in the outfield in the top of the seventh. Now, imagine that, instead of an outfielder, Pitcher B pinch-hits for Pitcher A. Does Pitcher B get credit for a game pitched just because he pinch hit? No, he doesn't.

In fact, a pinch-hitter isn't anything except a pinch-hitter unless and until he takes the field. A pitcher who pinch hits for another pitcher doesn't become the pitcher of record until he steps on the mound and throws a pitch. Until then, he's just a pinch-hitter, and he can't get credit for a win until he takes the field. To illustrate: with the score tied, starting Pitcher A is removed from the lineup in the bottom of the sixth and Pitcher B pinch hits for him. Pitcher B hits a home run. In the top half of the next inning, Pitcher C takes the mound to pitch the rest of the game for the home team, and that team never relinquishes the lead. Who gets the win? If you think it's Pitcher B, you definitely need to re-read the rules.
Wrong:
He inserted the player as the new pitcher.
Read the rules: When a new pitcher has been announced and inserted into the lineup, he must face 1 batter. REPLACE
A pinch hitter for said pitcher is not required to do this. REMOVED

You're Up.
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Old 05-24-2019, 10:40 PM   #19
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(f) The pitcher named in the batting order handed the umpire-in-chief, as provided in Rules 4.02 (a) and 4.02 (b), shall pitch to the first batter or any substitute batter until such batter is put out or reaches first base, unless the pitcher sustains injury or illness which, in the judgment of the umpire-in-chief, incapacitates him from pitching.

(g) If the pitcher is replaced, the substitute pitcher shall pitch to the batter then at bat, or any substitute batter, until such batter is put out or reaches first base, or until the offensive team is put out, unless the substitute pitcher sustains injury or illness which, in the umpire-in-chief's judgment, incapacitates him for further play as a pitcher.

Here's why: Sometimes, when a manager makes a pitching change, the opposing manager will bring in a pinch-hitter to face the new pitcher. This is usually to counter a the righty-righty or lefty-lefty matchup. When this happens, what is to prevent the manager on offense from then making yet another pitching change to counter the other manager's counter of his original move? You're catching on, I suspect, to how this could go on and on, back and forth. But Rules 5.10(f - i) prevent this by requiring that the pitcher face at least one batter.

Last edited by Pirates; 05-25-2019 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 05-25-2019, 12:34 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirates View Post
Wrong:
He inserted the player as the new pitcher.
Read the rules: When a new pitcher has been announced and inserted into the lineup, he must face 1 batter. REPLACE
A pinch hitter for said pitcher is not required to do this. REMOVED

You're Up.
Once again, let me explain: when a pinch-hitter is inserted into the lineup - regardless of whether he is replacing a pitcher or whether the pitcher is being removed - the pinch-hitter is nothing but a pinch-hitter unless and until such time as he takes the field. And that includes a pitcher who pinch-hits for a pitcher. Until a relief pitcher actually takes the mound and throws a pitch, the pitcher of record is the last pitcher who threw a pitch. That means that a pitcher who pitched the top of an inning gets credit for all of the runs scored by his team in the bottom of an inning, even if someone takes his place in the lineup during the course of that inning.
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