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Old 05-20-2015, 09:57 AM   #61
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Endured that spectacularly bad season, only to see them win a few games at the end and, sure enough, sabotage their draft lottery chances as it turned out.

Now they pick fourth and miss out on the "potentially franchise-altering big men, Karl-Anthony Towns of Kentucky and Jahlil Okafor of Duke."

I swear, it seems like 20 years since the New York Knickerbockers did anything right.
I hear ya. I gotta admit that I wasn't surprised. The Knicks appear to be cursed. Did someone kick a goat out of the Garden (referring to the Cubs curse in case anyone missed it)???
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Old 05-20-2015, 01:16 PM   #62
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I hear ya. I gotta admit that I wasn't surprised. The Knicks appear to be cursed. Did someone kick a goat out of the Garden (referring to the Cubs curse in case anyone missed it)???
I was wondering that myself. Look, I know the Knicks have had some good seasons since the 90's . . . one (2012-13) . . . uh, two . . . no make that one and a half (2011-2012) . . . two and a half (2010-2011, if you count a .512 record as "good") . . . Two and a half (stretching it a bit).

And I am not a typical "New York fan" who cannot stand adversity (so the rest of the country views us). But since 2000, with one small (and brief) blip, the Knicks have been terrible.

And then, to have the LAKERS (10 championships since 1973, as noted above), to come away with the #2 pick in one of those drafts in which a franchise maker (or two) is available, that's just too much.

LA earned their pick by having a crappy record and with dumb luck in the lottery. But look at their record of success in the last of 15 years, the last two notwithstanding.

No championships in 42 seasons could be some other curse but I think I have identified the source of the "New Millenium" Knicks Curse. His name is outlined in the first screen print. Disgruntled over being fired, familiar with voodoo and other shamanism, no doubt. This terrible stretch all started right around then . . .
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Old 06-17-2015, 08:03 PM   #63
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Thank you, Golden State Warriors, for denying J.R. Smith the satisfaction of winning a championship while riding on LeBron James coattails, having apparently eschewed his former clown persona that he exhibited as a New York Knick. Maybe if he had shown the same maturity and had not been out partying at night, he would have taken the Knicks to the playoffs instead of whiling away his time untying opponent players' shoelaces.
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Old 06-17-2015, 10:39 PM   #64
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And the NBA is changing. I don't buy into franchise altering big men anymore. The Warriors won tonight with Daymond Green playing at center.
The Cavs have a Russian mummy as their center.

Okafor and Townes are good players and will be good players, but even they are not traditional centers. The game has changed to the degree that wing players and athleticism is more important along with shooting.
I'm not sure this is true. A few things...

1. Uh, Anthony Davis surely qualifies as a franchise changing big man. He's going to be the best post-LeBron era player and he's either a center or a power forward depending on how you define it. Sure, he's not an old school style big man, but he's still a big man, and the Pelicans made the playoffs essentially because of just him.

2. Townes isn't a traditional center, but Okafor surely is. The knock on him is his lack of elite athleticism and his inability to stretch the floor while his strength is his high IQ and advanced post game/quick feet. He's basically the definition of a traditional big man.

3. I'm not so sure that big men aren't as valuable as they used to be so much as there just aren't that many traditional big men anymore. Big men have added guard-type skills and have become more athletic. Still, guys who can score at 55% efficiency, provide rim protection, and rebound are still quite valuable.

4. The Warriors won with Draymond at center, but they also relied heavily on Andrew Bogut during the regular season. I think the switch to the small ball lineup was as much matchup dependent as it was anything else. The Cavs strength beyond LeBron was their ability to dominate the offensive glass. You negate the offensive rebounding advantage by getting the Cavs bigs off the floor. You get them off the floor by making them guard Draymond Green.

5. Furthermore, good luck emulating the Warriors model. Steph Curry is the best shooter in NBA history. Guys who can play any position from center to small forward, defend any position, shoot threes, pass, and bully people in the post are outliers. There isn't another player in the league like Draymond. Collecting Swiss Army Knife role players like Iguodala, Barnes, Klay, and Livingston is great...but, again, good luck with that. The Warriors are a unique team in NBA history, not a model that can be emulated.
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Old 06-18-2015, 07:32 PM   #65
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Yep, it's funny how some people seem to have completely forgotten how integral Bogut was to the Warriors accumulating that 67-15 regular season record. The fact that he played limited minutes in The Finals is irrelevant, because against 95% of the league they were an awesome team with him on the court.

So back to the subject of this thread, are you Knicks fans excited about the draft? Do you think Phil is going to be able to do something beyond just that #4 pick?
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Old 06-18-2015, 07:35 PM   #66
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So back to the subject of this thread, are you Knicks fans excited about the draft? Do you think Phil is going to be able to do something beyond just that #4 pick?
As a Knicks fan I've learned never to be excited.
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Old 06-21-2015, 04:28 PM   #67
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There's an interesting possibility being discussed: "Knicks explore swapping No. 4 pick and moving down"

This appears to be a talent-rich draft, so the thinking is that the Knicks would trade down, giving up the no. 4 for an established player and a pick from somewhere between #10 and as far down as #30.

May this move, if it happens, be smarter than trading a first round pick in the 2016 draft for Andrea Bargnani. It's that kind of stupidity that keeps an organization as bad as the Knicks have perennially been in what should be the capital city of basketball.
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Old 06-21-2015, 06:22 PM   #68
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It does feel strange, as a Warriors fan, to go into a draft and not really be concerned about whether they crap the bed or not.

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Old 06-21-2015, 07:50 PM   #69
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I'm not sure this is true. A few things...

1. Uh, Anthony Davis surely qualifies as a franchise changing big man. He's going to be the best post-LeBron era player and he's either a center or a power forward depending on how you define it. Sure, he's not an old school style big man, but he's still a big man, and the Pelicans made the playoffs essentially because of just him.

2. Townes isn't a traditional center, but Okafor surely is. The knock on him is his lack of elite athleticism and his inability to stretch the floor while his strength is his high IQ and advanced post game/quick feet. He's basically the definition of a traditional big man.

3. I'm not so sure that big men aren't as valuable as they used to be so much as there just aren't that many traditional big men anymore. Big men have added guard-type skills and have become more athletic. Still, guys who can score at 55% efficiency, provide rim protection, and rebound are still quite valuable.

4. The Warriors won with Draymond at center, but they also relied heavily on Andrew Bogut during the regular season. I think the switch to the small ball lineup was as much matchup dependent as it was anything else. The Cavs strength beyond LeBron was their ability to dominate the offensive glass. You negate the offensive rebounding advantage by getting the Cavs bigs off the floor. You get them off the floor by making them guard Draymond Green.

5. Furthermore, good luck emulating the Warriors model. Steph Curry is the best shooter in NBA history. Guys who can play any position from center to small forward, defend any position, shoot threes, pass, and bully people in the post are outliers. There isn't another player in the league like Draymond. Collecting Swiss Army Knife role players like Iguodala, Barnes, Klay, and Livingston is great...but, again, good luck with that. The Warriors are a unique team in NBA history, not a model that can be emulated.
I respectfully disagree.


1. Yes Davis is a franchise altering player and through advanced metrics was the most productive player this past season despite missing about 15% of games.
He was almost unsettlingly good as a 21 year old. He had the 11th highest PER in history. But I would argue that his value is not because he is a big man, he is just a damn good basketball player. He was a no doubt #1 pick and it was always the safest choice.
I am not saying never take a big man. I am just saying that I don't think you need one anymore as a necessity.
But Davis will probably be a top 5 value player for years to come unless injury strikes or Russell Westbrook shatters his entire skeletal system and then returns to play in a week with an Adamantium skeleton like Wolverine. I could actually see that happening.

It would have been dumb not to take Davis at #1.
But my point was that you don't have to have a Davis to succeed.


2. Townes is more of a roll to the basket and wait around for offensive rebounds. He had a post game in college but I don't see it translating. His athleticism will serve him well.
Okafor is looking exciting. I think he is more athletic than he is given credit for and his movements look very agile.
But the notion that you lost out due to not having a top 2 pick is absurd.

3. Yes they are valuable. But you can also get them for low value. Robin Lopez, Mozgov, Gobert, Nene, Gortat etc etc
Players with that skill set are actually rather common and you can get them low in the first round or rather cheap in FA.
And some teams have 2-3 of them and can cover all 48 minutes.
You are by no means 'screwed' if you don't have a franchise one.

4. This is where I disagree most. Bogut was valuable for sure. But the game of basketball is changing. Floor spacing, everyone being able to shoot, everyone being athletic and flexible in their role is more important than having a traditional inside presence that you can throw it down to.
Cleveland went as far as they good playing a very slow iso heavy offense. The fact that they have the best player on earth playing perhaps the best of his life got them two games.


5. Yes, it can be emulated. The Rockets have a similar team. Milwaukee is aiming for that. Orlando has the beginnings of such a team. Atlanta already has that team, they just were hammered by injuries, poor shooting and the NYPD.
Every smart team in the league is going to start moving towards that model. Swiss army knives were undervalued. As were 3 and D guys. Now you will see it swing the other way and they will be overpaid.
The Warriors are unique for sure but I think they can be emulated.
The 90s Bulls are actually somewhat close. You have Jordan who was scoring and defense. Pippen who the platinum model of Swiss army knives. One of the best defensive players ever and could score.
Then you have the 90s model of floor spacing with some shooting and defense. They never had a great center or even PG.

The Spurs are another model. Duncan is a low post force for sure but also one of the best defenders of all time. They have always had floor spacing, flexibility, role players and team defense.

Basketball right now is like the MLB in the early 2000s. You have very smart people coming into the game and are quickly finding the undervalued player types and inefficiencies.
Teams will either adapt or they will fall behind.


My entire premise was not to upset that the Knicks are not going to land a big man. That type of thinking is old school and no longer valid IMO.
The Knicks could land the best player in the draft of draft a bust.
That is the nature of the draft

What is worse is that they gave so many draft picks away and tied up so much money into over paid players.
But the #4 pick is a building block, money is coming off the books. Anthony is a question mark. His knee problems are of great concern.
Maybe look to trade him? Even for pennies on the dollar? He has lost a lot of value but I don't think his value will ever be as high as right now. Is sounds like his knees has structural damage that will never get better.


If the Knicks draft Russell at #4 that could be really exciting. He is a really well rounded player with size. If he can really bring it on defense then he could be the best player in the draft.
And he has made it known he does not want to play for the 76ers so he could be there at #4.
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Old 06-21-2015, 07:56 PM   #70
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There's an interesting possibility being discussed: "Knicks explore swapping No. 4 pick and moving down"

This appears to be a talent-rich draft, so the thinking is that the Knicks would trade down, giving up the no. 4 for an established player and a pick from somewhere between #10 and as far down as #30.


I don't see them getting value for the pick.
They need to make the pick, shed salary to gain cap room. Bottom out for a few years and horde FA money to make an impact.

The Knicks are not just 1 or 2 players away. Their roster is a train wreck. Anthony could be bluffing us all but it is conceivable that he could be a shell of himself at any moment with his knee issues.
The Knicks are going to be bad for a while, the ownership and fans just need to suck it up and make smart moves instead of applying banaids.

Things could be worse, they could always be that team in Brooklyn!
That team is not even a train wreck, they are a train that wrecked, fell into a canyon, caught or fire and then another train wrecked and fell on top of it.

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Old 06-25-2015, 11:38 PM   #71
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So, with their first round draft pick, the Knicks choose . . . Frédéric Weis! Oh, I'm sorry. Slip of the tongue (typing fingers). I mean . . . Kristaps Porzingis! And once again, management catches hell from the fans who probably could run this organization a hell of a lot better.

"Knicks fans, who filled parts of Barclays Center in Brooklyn, wanted no part of Porzingis, booing loud and long after his name was called by commissioner Adam Silver."


I swear to the Almighty, the Knicks are truly cursed and thereby condemned to wallow in their own stupidity. Despite all the strategic speculation outlined above, this is the best they could do. Unbelievable.
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Old 06-26-2015, 12:31 AM   #72
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Great pick!!! Man am I excited.
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Old 06-26-2015, 12:34 AM   #73
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So, with their first round draft pick, the Knicks choose . . . Frédéric Weis! Oh, I'm sorry. Slip of the tongue (typing fingers). I mean . . . Kristaps Porzingis! And once again, management catches hell from the fans who probably could run this organization a hell of a lot better.

"Knicks fans, who filled parts of Barclays Center in Brooklyn, wanted no part of Porzingis, booing loud and long after his name was called by commissioner Adam Silver."


I swear to the Almighty, the Knicks are truly cursed and thereby condemned to wallow in their own stupidity. Despite all the strategic speculation outlined above, this is the best they could do. Unbelievable.
The best thing the Knicks can do is let him play 34 MPG. Too many of the European players have been brought over and then not played in their first few seasons.

I want him to succeed since I have seen interviews with him and he seems like a nice kid.
He has been a professional since he was 14 years old and has a good family, is well liked by his team and is already proficient in English.
If he fails I don't think it will be because of some mental of emotional issue.
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Old 06-26-2015, 08:11 AM   #74
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The best thing the Knicks can do is let him play 34 MPG. Too many of the European players have been brought over and then not played in their first few seasons.

I want him to succeed since I have seen interviews with him and he seems like a nice kid.
He has been a professional since he was 14 years old and has a good family, is well liked by his team and is already proficient in English.
If he fails I don't think it will be because of some mental of emotional issue.
You do realize how lame this sounds, yes? "Nice kid"? He's a kid alright. He's only 19, he is unproven as to maturity and the fact that he's been playing in a Spanish league with less than impressive stats: "With Cajasol Sevilla last season, Porzingis averaged 10.7 points and 4.7 rebounds in 21.7 minutes a game."

The only thing he's got going for him is that he's 7 foot, one inch tall. But look at him! He's a beanpole! What, he's going to turn into Shaq in a few years?

More likely, he will be another Shawn Bradley. Remember him?
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Bradley entered the professional ranks as one of the most intriguing and highly debated prospects in the history of the NBA draft. Supporters claimed his tremendous size and surprising athleticism would allow him to dominate the league. Critics argued that he would struggle in the NBA due to his thin build (listed at just 235 pounds) and lack of experience.
And struggle he did. He never did develop into a big man (as opposed to a tall skinny man), even though when they drafted him, "Philadelphia's management saw Bradley as a major project with huge long-term potential." That sounds like what Phil Jackson is saying this morning.
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Old 06-26-2015, 09:10 AM   #75
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Shawn Bradley did star in Space Jam...so he wasn't a complete flop.
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Old 06-26-2015, 02:32 PM   #76
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Now that I have calmed down a bit and read some more about this pick, I am trying to salvage some optimism. Here are some "read bytes" from an article in Newsday:

Quote:
Some league executives and scouts believe Porzingis, 19, has the potential to be the best player from this draft.

Porzingis has played in Spain since 2012. He’s long and lean, is a good shooter and can defend inside and on the perimeter.

Porzingis has drawn comparisons with NBA All-Stars Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitzki. Jackson likened him to Gasol, who was a skinny kid out of Spain.

Knicks fans, however, are concerned that Porzingis could be another Frederic Weis. Porzingis called it “my dream” to play for the Knicks and wants to show he’s not Weis. “For those people who don’t know me, they may think I’m a soft European,” Porzingis said on ESPN. “There have been busts before, but I’m different. I really love the game. I’m very hungry. It’s my passion about my game that sets me apart.”
All good things, if true. As I was reading this, however, two phrases came to mind: "Really!" [skeptical meaning] and "You have a long way to go, bub."

The article mentioned these three players whose names I am recording here for future reference. They are ones that the Knicks passed up when they drafted Porzingis. They will be the benchmarks against whom Porzingis will be compared by me and even if only ONE of them becomes a star, while Porzingis fades away over time, then this will go down as yet another blunder by Knicks management over recent years. [It's as if you can be a genius elsewhere but when you join Madison Square Garden, you become a moron as a job requirement.]

The three players are point guard Emmanuel Mudiay, swingman Justise Winslow and center Willie Cauley-Stein. That last guy is the one that is going to haunt me over the years, I think.
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Old 06-26-2015, 10:44 PM   #77
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Even if Porzingas busts, the Knicks absolutely fleeced the Hawks to get Grant for Hardaway Jr. Hardaway is absolutely terrible and Grant looks like he could be quite good.
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Old 06-26-2015, 10:51 PM   #78
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Even if Porzingas busts, the Knicks absolutely fleeced the Hawks to get Grant for Hardaway Jr. Hardaway is absolutely terrible and Grant looks like he could be quite good.
Yes that was a dumb trade.

I did not like anything the Hawks did last night.
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Old 06-27-2015, 02:37 PM   #79
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Even if Porzingas busts, the Knicks absolutely fleeced the Hawks to get Grant for Hardaway Jr. Hardaway is absolutely terrible and Grant looks like he could be quite good.
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Yes that was a dumb trade.

I did not like anything the Hawks did last night.
The talk is that Jackson did that trade, in part at least, to appease Anthony who reportedly was not pleased with picking a long-range prospect like Porzingis at number 4. Anthony is anxious to win now, or soon, and his current contract will likely be up before Mr. P. "arrives," if he will at all.

Well, free agency starts, what, next week? All of this may be (conveniently) forgotten if the Knicks do well in the market.
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Old 06-27-2015, 03:31 PM   #80
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The talk is that Jackson did that trade, in part at least, to appease Anthony who reportedly was not pleased with picking a long-range prospect like Porzingis at number 4. Anthony is anxious to win now, or soon, and his current contract will likely be up before Mr. P. "arrives," if he will at all.

Well, free agency starts, what, next week? All of this may be (conveniently) forgotten if the Knicks do well in the market.
Personally, I would trade Anthony. It would be somewhat hard to do since his contract is a rough one. But even getting pennies on the dollar at this point would be better for a rebuild.

The Knicks issue over the last 15 years has been that they try and apply bandaid fixes like signing dumb FA's trading for mediocre veterans and generally trying to do all things at all times.
Their own worst enemy seems to be their crazy fans who demand that the team stay relevant at all times.
That is incredibly hard to do season in and season out. I don't see any quick fixes for them.
Winslow or Mudiay was not going to turn the Knicks into a 50 win team even if they managed to get another high impact FA.

The Knicks have endured years of having little cap room and trading away draft picks. You don't get over that in a year.

And I am not really sure the Knicks owe Anthony anything. His knees are a very real concern.
I don't see anything they can do in FA to make this team a contender again in a short while.
And by contender I am not talking about getting into the playoffs as a 6-8 seed.
In the east you have to measure yourself by Cleveland and Atlanta (who make look different next season)
And to lesser extent Chicago, Washington, Toronto and Indiana.
Are the Knicks even as good as Milwaukee? No, Milwaukee despite some increasingly dumb moves are still looking at a good core.

I have never lived in New York so I can't understand the mindset. But it seems like the teams own worst enemy is their own fan base.
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