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Old 08-01-2013, 10:51 PM   #81
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If that's how you want to play, than that's how you should play!

From my own experience when I played ratings, I tended to evaluate guys moreso on the color of their number than their statistics. There would be guys in Triple-A that would hit .330 in 120 games and I wouldn't call them up because their ratings looked atrocious. That ruined the game for me, and I quickly became bored because OOTP started to feel like any other video game where ratings dictate decisions.

Again, I'm not putting you down. I like OOTP because we have so much control over how we want to play. I've just found that The Wolf's model has provided me with the most enjoyment and realism. To each his own.
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Old 08-01-2013, 11:00 PM   #82
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I like OOTP because we have so much control over how we want to play. I've just found that The Wolf's model has provided me with the most enjoyment and realism. To each his own.
Exactly. Everyone should play the game the way that they like. Stats Only isn't for everyone, but it's absolutely the most enjoyable and the most realistic-feeling way to play that some of us have found. It is, forgive the pun, a game changing experience.

I urge every one of you reading this to give Stats Only a fair try. You have nothing to lose, and potentially a whole lot to gain.
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Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 08-01-2013, 11:58 PM   #83
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For those who may consider trying stat's only, just keep in mind that the realism factor can easily be minimized if the creation of the league is not executed properly. Here are a few tips I have for those that might be intrigued by the idea.

#1: It's nearly impossible to evaluate speed, and defense can be a very difficult to determine as well. I would suggest having ratings displayed for speed and defense, though only a ten-point scale. Keep in mind that defensive ratings will still be subjective if you have scouts. Speed is an easily measurable tool with little variation, so there's no need to hide that rating.

#2: Don't turn scouts off. The moment scouts are turned off, the OSA scouting reports will immediately become 100% correct. Though granted, there is still some level of doubt given that ratings are on a 1-250 scale, and the written scouting reports are generated (from my understanding) on a 1-10 scale. Furthermore, these written reports do not take into account lefty/righty shifts in performance, gap, or other such values that ratings do. They're accurate but not overly so. Nevertheless, turn scouts on.

#3: Once scouts are turned on, I would suggest setting the scouting to either 'low' or for even more emphasis on stats, 'very low'. I've found very low to be the most realistic in my leagues. Low tends to me too accurate, and as a stats only player, that's what we're trying to avoid. You want maximum emphasis on stats and a minimal amount on written reports, as a real GM has to his disposal.

#4: ONLY FOR ONLINE LEAGUES -- Make sure everyone's scout has the same ability and give them 100 year contracts to avoid unfairness between teams, and certain teams having an advantage based on their scouts ability.

#5: Finally, feeders are a must for stats only leagues. Furthermore, the more games the better. A typical High School season is 20 games, though you will have no clue whatsoever what a players ability is after 20 games. I would suggest 80 or so games both for the college feeder and the high school one.

Just a few things I learned...
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Old 08-02-2013, 12:44 PM   #84
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Quote:
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The thing that kills stats only for me is that it is not realistic.

In real life, GMs have stats and scouts. Sometimes, they say opposite things. Part of the skill is sorting that contrary information and weighing which one is right.

Eliminating one source of information is like playing a PGA event without walking the course or knowing the pin placements. No one would do it.
I pretty much agree with you spot on. I have tried stats only, and while it's interesting and challenging, I found the unknown to be too much at times, especially during a draft.

I joined a league about 4 years ago that had actual ratings off and haven't looked back from that. We know potentials and have star ratings, but have no idea what the actuals are. For me, it gives you a little bit of both, you are still looking at stats to see if a guy is ready to be moved up or down, declining, and to know if he is a full time player or just a platoon player.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:08 PM   #85
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I have tried stats only, and while it's interesting and challenging, I found the unknown to be too much at times, especially during a draft.
Did you try it with both HS and college feeder leagues and simmed for four years so that your drafts had a full four years of stats to judge on?
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Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 08-02-2013, 01:15 PM   #86
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Did you try it with both HS and college feeder leagues and simmed for four years so that your drafts had a full four years of stats to judge on?
Yes. There seemed to be so many college players who put big stats, but turned out just to be mature kids for their age and not big prospects. There were also a lot of the high school players who would only get 2 years, look like decent players, and turn out to be huge prospects.

Maybe stats only just wasn't for me. I can't have actual ratings on anymore, it completely kills it for me. I have turned off stars as well, which I like. Potential ratings and stats is my kinda game that I seem to get into the most.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:19 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xpert7777 View Post
Yes. There seemed to be so many college players who put big stats, but turned out just to be mature kids for their age and not big prospects. There were also a lot of the high school players who would only get 2 years, look like decent players, and turn out to be huge prospects. .
That sounds like real life if you ask me. Do you know how many first round draft picks never reach the major leagues? A lot. Just look at one draft log from 1995-2005 and you'll find dozens of guys you've never even heard of.

Where's the fun in prospects always panning out?

Furthermore, I don't know the exact round, but Albert Pujols was drafted around the 9th if I remember correctly.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:22 PM   #88
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That sounds like real life if you ask me.

Where's the fun in prospects always panning out?
I think in real baseball there are a lot of times that scouts see power potential in a player that doesn't show up on the stat sheet and etc. If a guy doesn't hit for power in HS, that doesn't mean the potential isn't there. Playing with no stats you would not see this....correct? Maybe I just haven't played with it enough, but led me to get more frustrated than enjoyable in my experience.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:24 PM   #89
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Quote:
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I think in real baseball there are a lot of times that scouts see power potential in a player that doesn't show up on the stat sheet and etc. If a guy doesn't hit for power in HS, that doesn't mean the potential isn't there. Playing with no stats you would not see this....correct? Maybe I just haven't played with it enough, but led me to get more frustrated than enjoyable in my experience.
I feel like a toy on rewind saying this, but you have scouts. You have written reports that would indicate power. They just aren't very accurate, though you have complete control over how accurate the written report is.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:30 PM   #90
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Like many in this thread I have come to know and love the stats only. Outside the draft being a bit of a pain (at least star ratings?)
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:46 PM   #91
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I so enjoy the unknown that I don't even sim the first years of my stats only leagues and instead jump in with both feet--controlling a team without any history to go by. I do play every inning of every game, though--even Spring Training--so my evaluations of talent on my own roster are largely gut-based and my line-up is often juggled by that gut alone. I find I only really use scouting reports early on in my first season when there is zero history and even then only to determine if an opposing base-runner is a threat to steal. After about forty games, I feel confident looking at SB's and CS's and even fielding metrics to make qualified decisions regarding those more difficult-to-ascertain attributes.

The first few drafts are very hit-and-miss with my particularly neurotic playstyle, but I like that, too. Come the fourth year, I have players hitting arbitration en masse(I reset service years before my first spring training) and I have a reasonable amount of history to base drafts, trades and free agent acquisitions upon. It is probably more immersive than is healthy, to be honest.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:48 PM   #92
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Quote:
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However, Wolf and others continue to say, and I paraphrase, "real men play stats only", "stats only is more challenging", "the game is too easy with numerical ratings" etc. Those are assertions that I dispute.
In none of his posts did I get the feeling that is what he was saying...at all...
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:49 PM   #93
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That's bogus.....no one ever could foresee a decline until the decline happens.....and in real baseball even when it is obvious that a player no longer is anything close to what he was, he will still get chances to play based on his name and the (stupid) hope that he will turn it around....
Exactly my point.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:56 PM   #94
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#1: It's nearly impossible to evaluate speed, and defense can be a very difficult to determine as well. I would suggest having ratings displayed for speed and defense, though only a ten-point scale. Keep in mind that defensive ratings will still be subjective if you have scouts. Speed is an easily measurable tool with little variation, so there's no need to hide that rating.
It's crude, but to evaluate speed I use SB and SB%, as well as doubles and triples. For defense, use Zone Rating (ZR) - it gives a very accurate look at how a player plays in the field at any given position.

Quote:
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#5: Finally, feeders are a must for stats only leagues. Furthermore, the more games the better. A typical High School season is 20 games, though you will have no clue whatsoever what a players ability is after 20 games. I would suggest 80 or so games both for the college feeder and the high school one.
To me the shortened season makes it all the more fun. HS players in general are extremely volatile and hard to project in future performance. They're the ultimate "high risk/high reward". I don't mind a small sample size, as it only furthers the challenge...
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Old 08-02-2013, 02:49 PM   #95
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In none of his posts did I get the feeling that is what he was saying...at all...
Same here.
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Old 08-02-2013, 03:05 PM   #96
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In none of his posts did I get the feeling that is what he was saying...at all...
I don't think he meant to imply it. But it's easy to take the term "vanilla OOTP" and his proselytization-like zeal for stats-only the wrong way. I've seen softer sells from Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Old 08-02-2013, 03:16 PM   #97
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I don't think he meant to imply it. But it's easy to take the term "vanilla OOTP" and his proselytization-like zeal for stats-only the wrong way. I've seen softer sells from Jehovah's Witnesses.
Is it Jehovah's-Witness-like to urge everyone to give SO a try, given that so many of us have tried it and found it to be our favorite way to play? I make a point of being clear that it's not for everyone and that everyone should play the game the way that they enjoy it most, whatever that is.

If it is then we know very different Jehovah's Witnesses, and I had one for a close friend.

Personally I think it would be selfish of us to have found such a fun way to play the game and not to share it enthusiastically.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 08-02-2013, 03:20 PM   #98
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Is it Jehovah's-Witness-like to urge everyone to give SO a try, given that so many of us have tried it and found it to be our favorite way to play? I make a point of being clear that it's not for everyone and that everyone should play the game the way that they enjoy it most, whatever that is.

If it is then we know very different Jehovah's Witnesses, and I had one for a close friend.

Personally I think it would be selfish of us to have found such a fun way to play the game and not to share it enthusiastically.
But why make the "Vanilla" comment to begin with?
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Old 08-02-2013, 03:20 PM   #99
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Can we please leave personalities and old grudges out of this thread? It's an important one and it should stay on topic. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 08-02-2013, 03:22 PM   #100
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But why make the "Vanilla" comment to begin with?
Standard usage.

Oxford Dictionaries:

Definition of vanilla in English
vanilla
Syllabification: (va·nil·la)
Pronunciation: /vəˈnilə/
Translate vanilla | into French | into German | into Italian | into Spanish

adjective
(also plain vanilla) informal
having no special or extra features; ordinary or standard:
choosing plain vanilla technology wherever you can will save you money
the original, vanilla MP3 format is still the most commonly encountered form of the technology
they seem to be quite content in their plain vanilla domestic life
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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