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Old 06-16-2005, 09:21 PM   #1
beekman
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1900 Hw

Okay here's the deal, I'm in the midst of plowing through National Police Gazettes for a book project, and I decided to relieve some of the tedium of screening microfilm by keeping track of HW doings. I decided to work up ratings for the guys I ran across and I'm hoping to create something of a snapshot of the American HW picture in 1900-01 (the reels I'm working on right now).
The big names of those years already in teh game were (champion) Jeffries, Corbett, Maher, Fitzsimmons, a used up Kilrain, Tom Sharkey (who seemed to spend most of those two years carousing), and "Kid" McCoy. Jack Johnson was active, but fighting mostly at 167 lbs. Marvin Hart was also beginning to get some attention during this period.
Some of the fighters I'm posting have already been posted by others. However, I have tweaked all of them. The first group I'm going to post are these tweaked guys. I've lowered the overall rating on most, as I'm a bit "tight" in my ratings. I hope none of the original raters get upset by this (and I've left all the original poster names on them). I've also added hometowns, career records, and, in some cases, brief notes to the bios of these guys. I'll try to add totally new guys as I have time (meaning it may take awhile for me to complete this project).
Beekman
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File Type: tbdx Armstrong_Bob.tbdx (9.2 KB, 194 views)
File Type: tbdx Brown_Sailor.tbdx (9.4 KB, 188 views)
File Type: tbdx Burley_Nick.tbdx (9.3 KB, 192 views)

Last edited by beekman; 06-16-2005 at 09:36 PM. Reason: bad, bad grammar at the end of a long day.
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Old 06-16-2005, 09:22 PM   #2
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next batch

next group
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File Type: tbdx Butler_Joe.tbdx (9.3 KB, 181 views)
File Type: tbdx Childs_Frank.tbdx (9.2 KB, 176 views)
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Old 06-16-2005, 09:23 PM   #3
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1900

next group
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Old 06-16-2005, 09:30 PM   #4
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1900 Hw

here's the rest of the first batch as a zip file (hopefully).
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Old 06-18-2005, 01:44 AM   #5
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1900

Here are two Pennsylvania trial horses.
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Old 06-19-2005, 01:30 AM   #6
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Congratulations Beekman on a great job. Because of your extensive knowledge of that time period, your opinions have credibility. I hope you continue to post additions as it makes the game more interesting.

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Old 06-21-2005, 04:12 PM   #7
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Thanks for the kind words, Austin. I do what I can.
Here are three tomato cans. Please note: these files are based on very fleeting references, so there's a great deal of speculation in the ratings.
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File Type: tbdx Kennedy_Billy.tbdx (9.2 KB, 179 views)
File Type: tbdx Mathews_John.tbdx (9.1 KB, 182 views)
File Type: tbdx Muncey_William.tbdx (9.3 KB, 181 views)
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Old 06-21-2005, 04:23 PM   #8
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Good work Beekman, I am definitely interested in guys not already in the game. I don't want to change the ratings of guys already in my universe. Keep up the good work.
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Old 06-21-2005, 04:24 PM   #9
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Ditto from me.

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Good work Beekman, I am definitely interested in guys not already in the game. I don't want to change the ratings of guys already in my universe. Keep up the good work.
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Old 06-22-2005, 01:38 AM   #10
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Beekman,

Do you have any more information on William Muncey, as I could not find him in boxrec.com.

Austin
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Old 06-22-2005, 03:06 AM   #11
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Beekman,

Do you have any more information on William Muncey, as I could not find him in boxrec.com.

Austin
I couldn't either so I didn't add him to my game. Also the Munsy he mentioned was their but I don't know it's him.
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Old 06-22-2005, 07:08 AM   #12
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Beekman
Out of curiosity where are you researching the Police Gazettes? If I'm ever in the vicininity its microfilm I'd be intested in having a gander at.

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I couldn't either so I didn't add him to my game. Also the Munsy he mentioned was their but I don't know it's him.
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Old 06-22-2005, 10:12 AM   #13
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Okay, with regards to the questions. I'm viewing the microfilm at the Ohio U library in Athens,Ohio. I believe the microfilming was originally done by the Library of Congress and copies shouldn't be that hard to find if you live near a university research library. I'm pretty sure the "Munsy" on BoxRec is the "Muncey" I rated, but, of course, one can't be positive. I have a list of HW names from this period that is two columns long on both sides of a legal sheet (and growing daily) and my initial BoxRec search for them disclosed that the majority are not listed on that site. I'm not really sure how BoxRec is compiled (or even who is responsible for it), but it is becoming clear to me that, at least regarding turn of the 20th century boxing, there are a lot of fighters (and fights) not registered with BoxRec. Don't get me wrong, I love BoxRec and find it to be an invaluable tool, but I'm a bit surprised by just how incomplete it really is. My point here is that, if you are only going to use my ratings for fighters that have BoxRec i.d. numbers, you aren't going to get much out of this thread, because most of these guys don't. However, the two in this post are on BoxRec, and they are among the better HWs of the period (which isn't saying much -- I wonder if it is something about a new century beginning that leads to a meagre HW division?).
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File Type: tbdx Gardner_George.tbdx (9.3 KB, 186 views)
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Old 06-22-2005, 10:44 AM   #14
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If it's not too much trouble to ask beek could you try to put the career dates in or at least an knowledgeable guess? ... Thanks it'd save the trouble for me at least I save all the created fighters into a file in my download section and then import them once a week. Almost all the ones that the guys do have career dates, it'd be a pain to import them one by one to check for dates.
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Old 06-22-2005, 01:21 PM   #15
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dates

Okay, I'll try to put more dates in the files, as long as everyone is clear that they will probably be guesses.
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Old 06-22-2005, 01:56 PM   #16
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It's be alright by me if you just put 1895-1905 showing they were turn of the century fighters ... the main thing is at the end of the year in my universe I pull in new fighters using the autoscheduler set to a certain year (i.e. 1909) if a guy doesn't have career dates he'll never get pulled up. Thanks beek, keep up the good work.
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Old 06-22-2005, 04:41 PM   #17
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There was a paucity of record sources in the early 20th century. The Police Gazette Annual and the T.S Andrews Annual were the only compilations in the oughts. These were far from complete and frought with errors. Nothing exists for the history of boxing that corresponds to Total Baseball or the older Big Mac for baseball records. What is required, to fill in the picture, is the type of work you are currently doing. Microfilm of original sources. The situation improved somewhat in the 20's with the appearence of Ring Magagine in Feb. of 1922 and The Everlast Record Books (1922-1938). Rings provide a source of fight results and Everlast some additional records (with the same questionable accuracy). In 1941-42 Fleischer Began the RRBs which continued though 1986-87. Our British friends were more fortunate. The precusrser of Boxing News, (whose name escapes me at the moment) began in 1910 and also provided a weekly source of scheduled bouts, fight results, and also of defis (challenges that boxers of the period issued to potential opponents). Latter day record keeping befefited from the work of Ralph Citro and his Computer Boxing Update, a source that exiists today as FightFax.

Several members of this forum are boxrec editors and could detail the data entry process. I understand that it demands accuracy. This necessitates a demand for verifacation, cross-checking and cross-referencing to vet a record. In the case of the US, I can't imagine Prof. Luckett Davis not being involved in vetting any records, having seen him listed as an editor. But in the case of the early a lot of pearl gathering still needs to be done.

An overview of the much of the available literatrue can be found at
http://www.sports.nd.edu/Boxing/
The Joyce Collection at Notre Dame's Hesburgh Library. Some additional record sources are mentioned in Gilbert Odds Encyclopedia of Boxing, a work I highly recommend.

Bear

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Originally Posted by beekman
Okay, with regards to the questions. I'm viewing the microfilm at the Ohio U library in Athens,Ohio. I believe the microfilming was originally done by the Library of Congress and copies shouldn't be that hard to find if you live near a university research library. I'm pretty sure the "Munsy" on BoxRec is the "Muncey" I rated, but, of course, one can't be positive. I have a list of HW names from this period that is two columns long on both sides of a legal sheet (and growing daily) and my initial BoxRec search for them disclosed that the majority are not listed on that site. I'm not really sure how BoxRec is compiled (or even who is responsible for it), but it is becoming clear to me that, at least regarding turn of the 20th century boxing, there are a lot of fighters (and fights) not registered with BoxRec. Don't get me wrong, I love BoxRec and find it to be an invaluable tool, but I'm a bit surprised by just how incomplete it really is. My point here is that, if you are only going to use my ratings for fighters that have BoxRec i.d. numbers, you aren't going to get much out of this thread, because most of these guys don't. However, the two in this post are on BoxRec, and they are among the better HWs of the period (which isn't saying much -- I wonder if it is something about a new century beginning that leads to a meagre HW division?).

Last edited by bear; 06-22-2005 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 06-23-2005, 11:00 AM   #18
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Bear,
Thanks for the info. Believe me, I've seen some truly bizarre stuff in the Police Gazette that brings the accuracy of its reporting into serious question. One thing I ran across yesterday was an item that George Lawler (a pretty good HW I'll rate later on) fell off a train in Idaho and was killed. Only they spelled his name "Lawlor," then later, in the SAME issue, there is a note that George "Lawler" was not really killed falling of a train in "Ohio" and is going to fight in Washington state. It is no surprise to me that BoxRec has trouble getting correct info. I'm plowing through these things for a book on the history of professional wrestling that I'm under contract for, and if you think the early history of boxing is a mess you should try to piece together wrestling during the same period. At least boxing is still a legit sport with people interested in its past, wrestling has neither of those things going for it.
Here are files for one good, but obscure, heavy and two bums.
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File Type: tbdx Cavanagh_John.tbdx (9.3 KB, 194 views)
File Type: tbdx Fitzpatrick_Jim.tbdx (9.2 KB, 192 views)
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Old 06-23-2005, 11:51 AM   #19
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Wrestling isn't among my interests. Hasn't been since the days of Ernie Ladd and Wahoo MacDaniel. I don't pay much attention to the wrestling articles unless in my old Rings unless they mention football players or guys like Bearcat Wright Jr. whose dad boxed. I do, though, have a copy of Fleisher's From Milo to Landos as well as the Rings in which it was originally serialized.
If you need copies of the Fleisher stuff let me know.

Bear


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Bear,
Thanks for the info. Believe me, I've seen some truly bizarre stuff in the Police Gazette that brings the accuracy of its reporting into serious question. One thing I ran across yesterday was an item that George Lawler (a pretty good HW I'll rate later on) fell off a train in Idaho and was killed. Only they spelled his name "Lawlor," then later, in the SAME issue, there is a note that George "Lawler" was not really killed falling of a train in "Ohio" and is going to fight in Washington state. It is no surprise to me that BoxRec has trouble getting correct info. I'm plowing through these things for a book on the history of professional wrestling that I'm under contract for, and if you think the early history of boxing is a mess you should try to piece together wrestling during the same period. At least boxing is still a legit sport with people interested in its past, wrestling has neither of those things going for it.
Here are files for one good, but obscure, heavy and two bums.
Beekman
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Old 06-23-2005, 03:10 PM   #20
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Bear,
Thanks for the offer, but I have a copy of Milo to Londos. Ladd and those guys are a bit down the road in my project. Right now I'm working on the chapter concerning the catch stylists of the late 19th -early 20th century (Burns, McLeod, Jenkins, Gotch, etc.). One thing that I was not aware of previously is that the state of boxing was so bad at the turn of the 20th century (fake fights, intentional fouls to stop fights, bribed refs in S.F., repeal of the Horton Law in NY) that many of the top guys turned to wrestling to make a buck. Fitzsimmons, Ruhlin, Sharkey, and Maher all kept themselves afloat for a period by grappling (usually Greco-Roman style). Mervine Thompson, however, switched to wrestling full-time and became a decent catch wrestler.
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