Home | Webstore
Latest News: FHM 5 Available - Update OOTP 19.8 is online - OOTP 19 Available! - MLB Manager 2018 Available Now

Perfect Team is LIVE!

  

Go Back   OOTP Developments Forums > Out of the Park Baseball 19 > OOTP 19 - General Discussions

OOTP 19 - General Discussions Everything about the newest version of Out of the Park Baseball - officially licensed by MLB.com and the MLBPA.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-07-2018, 09:02 AM   #1
Grim Madder
Bat Boy
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 16
Thanks: 9
Thanked 4x in 3 posts
When is the game result calculated?

For the first time, I am playing as a GM, but watching every game. The last three results (and some other incidents) got me to wondering when the result is calculated. Is it before the game or pitch by pitch?

Three games in a row now, the Reds have held a hard fought lead into the 9th only to have the closer (Iglesias) get hit for 5 runs each time. The game scores finished up 9-6, 7-3, and 6-5.

Of course, I understand these things can happen, but is this because of actual pitch by pitch rolls, or the game trying to reach a deterministic result?
Grim Madder is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 11:14 AM   #2
cavebutter
All Star Starter
 
cavebutter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,001
Thanks: 303
Thanked 544x in 335 posts
My understanding is, despite the constant chants of "AI cheats!", is that results are determined on a pitch-by-pitch basis.
__________________
MySQL, MyStruggle - A self-indulgent blog about my attempts to roll my own MySQL Database with OOTP

Logo Gallery
cavebutter is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
Grim Madder (12-07-2018)
Old 12-07-2018, 11:26 AM   #3
Grim Madder
Bat Boy
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 16
Thanks: 9
Thanked 4x in 3 posts
Not accusing the game of cheating, just wondering how it is calculated.

At least it is not just Iglesias. Next game we were 7-4 up so Herget is given the nod. He gets hit all over the place and we lose 7-8. Four blown saves in a row!

Something up with last inning comebacks!!
Grim Madder is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 11:34 AM   #4
Lukas Berger
OOTP Developments
 
Lukas Berger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lille/Nice, France
Posts: 11,088
Thanks: 17,146
Thanked 8,140x in 4,123 posts
AB by AB, I believe, though not actually pitch by pitch.

The overall game results are not predetermined in the least.
__________________


lukas@ootpdevelopments.com

Pre-order Out of the Park Baseball 19!

Buy Franchise Hockey Manager 4!

Found a bug? Have a technical issue? Please post here and/or file a support ticket here.

Need to upload files for us to check out? Instructions can be found here.
Lukas Berger is offline   Reply With Quote
4 thanks for this post:
BirdWatcher (12-07-2018), Grim Madder (12-07-2018), r0nster (12-07-2018), tarryhilis (12-07-2018)
Old 12-07-2018, 03:54 PM   #5
cavebutter
All Star Starter
 
cavebutter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,001
Thanks: 303
Thanked 544x in 335 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukas Berger View Post
AB by AB, I believe, though not actually pitch by pitch.

The overall game results are not predetermined in the least.
Lukas - Even in Pitch-by-Pitch mode?
__________________
MySQL, MyStruggle - A self-indulgent blog about my attempts to roll my own MySQL Database with OOTP

Logo Gallery
cavebutter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 04:24 PM   #6
RonCo
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,080
Thanks: 170
Thanked 731x in 385 posts
Yes, even in pitch-by-pitch mode I'm pretty sure the game is determining outcomes on the basis of a plate appearance (rather than on the basis of an at-bat).
RonCo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 06:26 PM   #7
PocketsAintFull
Bat Boy
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Walsall, UK
Posts: 17
Thanks: 20
Thanked 6x in 5 posts
So I guess it determines a probability for each choice in an at-bat? (Hit, bunt, etc).

I enjoy managing each game and trying to pick ‘realistic’ calls, as far as my knowledge extends, heh
__________________
Playing as Walsall Brewers in OOTP 19 Perfect Team, Chicago White Sox in Challenge Mode (Enjoying managing every game!), and starting out in FHM4 with the Ottawa Senators! Milwaukee Brewers fan!
PocketsAintFull is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 06:34 PM   #8
cavebutter
All Star Starter
 
cavebutter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,001
Thanks: 303
Thanked 544x in 335 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonCo View Post
Yes, even in pitch-by-pitch mode I'm pretty sure the game is determining outcomes on the basis of a plate appearance (rather than on the basis of an at-bat).
This does not make sense to me. It would make p-b-p mode pointless if the outcome is determined at the start of the PA.

No outcome difference if I choose to pitch-out vs throw to 1b vs pitch to contact?

I must be missing something.
__________________
MySQL, MyStruggle - A self-indulgent blog about my attempts to roll my own MySQL Database with OOTP

Logo Gallery
cavebutter is offline   Reply With Quote
2 thanks for this post:
Critical Mass (12-07-2018), Grim Madder (12-15-2018)
Old 12-07-2018, 07:17 PM   #9
Critical Mass
Minors (Triple A)
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 263
Thanks: 54
Thanked 122x in 47 posts
I'm with cavebutter.
Critical Mass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 07:41 PM   #10
RonCo
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,080
Thanks: 170
Thanked 731x in 385 posts
Obviously, there are things that alter the game engine. But results are fundamentally based on a plate appearance.
RonCo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2018, 10:18 PM   #11
NoOne
Hall Of Famer
 
NoOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 5,806
Thanks: 588
Thanked 1,553x in 1,261 posts
they have said it's no different as far as process and mechanics of a game whether it is played out as you click 1,2,.. etc and a simmed day or week etc.

it's just stepping through it much faster. faster than you could ever bash "1" repeatedly.

unless things changed, which would be a lot of work, the random seed that determines the outcome of each incremental step is generated at the beginning of a PA. now, is there other stuff also goin on to determine errors? yes. errors definitely seem like their own applied force/probability, exclusive of what happens in an AB, outside of a ball in play.

while you cannot see it, nor do anything with the knowledge, the result of a PA is essentially determined the moment they come to the plate. not so simple as 90-100 being a specific rsult, but maybe a matrix of results with various probabilities assigned.

then on top of that, a certain % of balls in plays will be errors -- relative to contexts like players involved and whatever else they include in the equation.

you can deduce these things by paying attention to behaviour. crash, reload same ab etc... you'll find that some "rolls" are so doomed it might only be an error that can save the PA... others are almost certain to be an XBH, but the 'matrix' of possibilities is heavily skewed by the original random seed -- toward extremes of a certain failure or what i perceive as a well-struck ball -- the fielding is part of the calculation, so good fielding slims the ranges of positive results or affects the probabilties of results within each corresponding matrix to range of seed values etc etc.

i guarnatee that if you find that lil 4-byte (8-byte?) address with the resulting generated seed value, you could lock it to various values and really deduce how it works. or just inject some code to always return a specific value of choice instead of any intended processing.

what sort of logic has those results? maybe not exactly what i said, nor exactly what i deduced, but it's close. the random seed is definitely generated 1 time at the beginning of the PA, though -- at least relatd to the act of hitting a ball...

the ranges of what determines various results (even if another layer of probabilities) in whatever else can easily be influenced by batter/pitching/fieding involved. by doing it this way you can have each force easily input into the calculation... simply comparing seed to newly calculated ranges or by affecting matrix probabilities furhter, gives the results in proper proportion.

Last edited by NoOne; 12-07-2018 at 10:34 PM.
NoOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
Sharkn20 (12-08-2018)
Old 12-07-2018, 10:47 PM   #12
Brad K
Minors (Triple A)
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 244
Thanks: 36
Thanked 34x in 24 posts
Think about it. Input data for the ratings is based on plate appearances. So how could another basis for outcomes be used?
Brad K is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
RonCo (12-08-2018)
Old 12-08-2018, 02:37 AM   #13
Critical Mass
Minors (Triple A)
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 263
Thanks: 54
Thanked 122x in 47 posts
I cannot speak for cavebutter, but I think what I (and maybe we) are saying is that if the outcome of an AB is pre-determined as soon as the batter comes to the plate, then playing in PBP mode is meaningless, since we can't change anything. Whether we just click "1" at the first pitch, or we work a 3-0 count, if it is pre-determined that the batter will strike out, he will still do so.

Same if he is destined to ground out third. Even if I tell him to bunt on a 3-0 pitch and the IF is deep, he will still ground out.
Critical Mass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2018, 07:55 AM   #14
RonCo
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,080
Thanks: 170
Thanked 731x in 385 posts
There are obvious cases where playing pitch-by-pitch allows one to break into the flow of the results engine, hence change the outcome, but, as Lukas said, baring those kinds of things--and to the degree it can even with these things--the game calculates its results based on the plate appearance.
RonCo is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
Lukas Berger (12-09-2018)
Old 12-08-2018, 08:25 AM   #15
RonCo
Hall Of Famer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,080
Thanks: 170
Thanked 731x in 385 posts
There's a semi-comfortable middle ground here that I'm reluctant to get into for reasons of keeping things fun for everyone.

Bottom line: yes, you can cross the streams and alter the timeline. But, the game is also trying to determine results on the basis of the plate appearance. If you dig into things far enough, you can see how this makes complete sense, how it allows the human GM to be baseball-like in their approach (which is fun), and how it warps things in ways that don't make sense in some cases.

Regardless, the game does not predetermine a winner.
RonCo is offline   Reply With Quote
Thank you for this post:
Brad K (12-11-2018)
Old 12-08-2018, 08:39 AM   #16
Sharkn20
Minors (Double A)
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 137
Thanks: 34
Thanked 39x in 30 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonCo View Post
There's a semi-comfortable middle ground here that I'm reluctant to get into for reasons of keeping things fun for everyone.

Bottom line: yes, you can cross the streams and alter the timeline. But, the game is also trying to determine results on the basis of the plate appearance. If you dig into things far enough, you can see how this makes complete sense, how it allows the human GM to be baseball-like in their approach (which is fun), and how it warps things in ways that don't make sense in some cases.

Regardless, the game does not predetermine a winner.
Feel free to expand for all those, like myself, hungry of knowledege about the in and outs of OOTP

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
Sharkn20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2018, 09:03 AM   #17
MrBojangles
All Star Reserve
 
MrBojangles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: low and inside
Posts: 533
Thanks: 122
Thanked 173x in 106 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Critical Mass View Post
I'm with cavebutter.
Had to read that one twice.
MrBojangles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2018, 10:27 AM   #18
r0nster
Hall Of Famer
 
r0nster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,562
Thanks: 722
Thanked 654x in 453 posts
In the most simplistic way. I look at it statistical probabilities per at bat depending on various factors. Such as pitchers hitters and fielders and ball park factors you name it
r0nster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2018, 11:00 AM   #19
DaBears
Minors (Double A)
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 190
Thanks: 41
Thanked 49x in 37 posts
It would seem reasonable to say that there is an overall algorithm for each event. If you look in the editor, there is a projection for each player (batter and pitcher) over the course of a season. Simplifying the math way too much, if I say that Mike Trout will (in 100 plate appearances) have 35 hits, strike out 10 times and have 20 walks, hit 20 fly ball outs, 10 ground ball outs and 5 line drive outs, this produces an algorithm. I can build that algorithm to say that when he first comes to the plate, there is a 70% chance he will hit the ball into play, 20% chance he walks and 10% chance he strikes out. So, if you do not go pbp, there you have it. Doesn’t matter really if you sim the day or play one-pitch mode (assuming you never order hit and run or the like - as people say, just keep pressing one).

However, in pbp mode rather than one-pitch, I can further assume that he sees a certain number of pitches per plate appearance. Let’s say there is a 10% chance the plate appearance ends in one pitch. When he comes to the plate, the algorithm will say there is a 7% chance on the first pitch when playing pbp that the ball is put in play, a 3.5% chance it is a hit, maybe 1% a foul ball, etc.

Thus, when you pitch out in pbp you do override the sorta overall algorithm. Same thing if you have a man on first and call for run and hit, you are overriding the initial algorithm and instead launching a different one for when he swings at a pitch. It is not that the at-bat is pre-determined at all, but that you have changed which one is used. My asssumption has always been that this is why people think there is an advantage to playing out games, and I do feel it is slightly true. The average OOTPer who takes the time to play out a baseball game likely knows a bit about baseball strategy, and you can’t make the AI Billy Martin (nor can I make me Billy Martin!).

Warning - If you can build those algorithms, do it for your stock portfolio and not a baseball game. Much better to pay Markus and the gang 40 bucks and spend your life in finance. Works for me.
DaBears is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2018, 07:20 PM   #20
NoOne
Hall Of Famer
 
NoOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 5,806
Thanks: 588
Thanked 1,553x in 1,261 posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Critical Mass View Post
I cannot speak for cavebutter, but I think what I (and maybe we) are saying is that if the outcome of an AB is pre-determined as soon as the batter comes to the plate, then playing in PBP mode is meaningless, since we can't change anything. Whether we just click "1" at the first pitch, or we work a 3-0 count, if it is pre-determined that the batter will strike out, he will still do so.

Same if he is destined to ground out third. Even if I tell him to bunt on a 3-0 pitch and the IF is deep, he will still ground out.

strategy comes into play... the result being "determined" is more general like 0 and 1... pass and fail. (think how players are catageorized when you create one -- profiles with randomness within that profile... a seed can relate to a different profile or %'s related to various actions and various possible results -- instead of a 'legendary' player a high seed is a 'legendary' result that is only stopped by an error... but most ranges of seeds will have multiple potential results with shifting percentages based on seed as well as factors of that current situation)

if you choose to bunt all day, it will take a ton of pure success rolls to win, right?

so, you can still influence the actual result. with basic common sense, you can say that it's mostly determined result, but you can make it fail on purpose or with really dumb strategies.

what you choose to do will influence what the seed may mean too. e.g. a bunt may be more likely to succeed than a swing away due to various contexts of that PA. it may take a 'lesser' seed to lay down a bunt than getting a single or better, for example.

the key is that it's only generated once per PA and it isn't re-generated on a reload of the game. they absolute 'best' it could be is a regen seed on every single decisions that is made on an incremental basis. so, for each pitch thrown, each ball in play (after hitting effects like errors and more?) etc etc. each incremental decisions that the game engine makes should have it's own random seed generated -- concepts behind the law of independent results would be the basis here.

imaging in RL a "complicated" process involving 2 steps. each has a 50% chance of success and they factor. so, there's a 25% of success for these 2 consecutive actions. the parrallel would be if the game ignored the 2 steps and simply slapped an overall 25% chance of success in the model. simplifying it, still adds up the same, but it isn't as resolved in the modelling.

like brad k said, this has to be done at some point -- the calculation, comparison to rl data and relative chance of success for each thing mapped out and influenced by the various factors in the game. it's not "pre-determined" in that we can do anything more about it than whether some idiot runs a red light and crashes into your car. it was going to happen, whether you knew it or not.

For OotP, this choice in modelling is why the "take a pitch" exploit works. i can't think of any other exploit from the fact the seed is generated once per AB... this is why you are safe to take those balls, because if it were a seed that will most likely result in a single or a hr, you are still going to get that good resut even with a 3-2 or 0-2 count.

count basically doesn't exist to the engine... it's already simplified and included in the %'s elsewhere -- lower resolution like the faux example above. it's asthetic in nature due to the mechanics of 1 seed per PA. it only resolves down to a PA..it's blurry after that. (non-existent is more accurate).

to counter that exploit -- this 'way' prevents other abuses -- e.g. crashing and reloading game will not change much, unless you are extremely patient. you'll get that same horrible 'roll' each time you try to turn that out into a needed RBI,lol... or a 4th HR... it simply may be impossible to get 4hr even if you reload every single AB 100x over. so, it prevents an exploit too... but that could be prevented by simply maintaining any rolled seeds and not regenerating on a 'load' of the game.

sometimes what i say sounds like criticism, but it's not. i believe it should be generated more often, but meh... it's a video game. i don't play out the games, so it's 100% not an issue for me. there's no opportunity for me to see the drawback or abuse it.

Last edited by NoOne; 12-08-2018 at 07:37 PM.
NoOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:52 AM.

 

Major League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of MLB Advanced Media, L.P. Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with the permission of Minor League Baseball. All rights reserved.

The Major League Baseball Players Association (www.MLBPLAYERS.com ) is the collective bargaining representative for all professional baseball players of the thirty Major League Baseball teams and serves as the exclusive group licensing agent for commercial and licensing activities involving active Major League baseball players. On behalf of its members, it operates the Players Choice licensing program and the Players Choice Awards, which benefit the needy through the Major League Baseball Players Trust, a charitable foundation established and run entirely by Major League baseball players. Follow: @MLB_Players; @MLBPAClubhouse; @MLBPlayersTrust

Out of the Park Baseball is a registered trademark of Out of the Park Developments GmbH & Co. KG

Google Play is a trademark of Google Inc.

Apple, iPhone, iPod touch and iPad are trademarks of Apple Inc., registered in the U.S. and other countries.

COPYRIGHT © 2017 OUT OF THE PARK DEVELOPMENTS. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright © 2018 Out of the Park Developments