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Old 10-21-2018, 01:37 PM   #21
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If there were a free to play league, where there was a true level playing field, I'd be excited to check this out.

I share the OP's concerns that this is on very shaky legal and ethical grounds.
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Old 10-21-2018, 02:18 PM   #22
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If there are any questions about legality, please read 31 USC 5362. This is the United States Code that covers this.

Perfect Team is not gambling. Do you win a prize? Cash? I don't see that anywhere.
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Old 10-21-2018, 02:27 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by sansterre View Post
I do worry about the ptp mechanic. I do worry that sufficient exposure to the income stream that will be a corrupting influence. That once the company sees how much money is at stake, and what could be accomplished with it, they will slowly become biased in favor of the 'whales' and against the interests of everyone else. This is possible.

I don't believe that it will happen. Markus has built this baby up from nothing. Over many, many years. And I'd guess that if he wanted to walk away from the hassle of growing the best baseball simulation ever for the rest of us, he could have done so with a pretty decent chunk of change instead of turning around and reinvesting it (as he has clearly done at least in part) on the development and improvement of the game. I mean, come on, how many Head Devs spend this much time on their forums, openly allowing people to call them out, interacting with them, accepting if not embracing the criticism?
Well said.

I would argue that, in fact, the most pressure to monetize and cater to whales will be in OOTP 19 (perhaps 20, as the first version to have PT from the start), and the pressure should diminish with each version after that (assuming it does as well as I expect). There needs to be a payoff right now to ensure coverage of the initial outlay of developer time, and there's little room for failure.

In the future, with incoming revenue from each new year and lingering spenders in old years, things will be different from a cashflow and budgetary standpoint. This should make it easier for the company to do things like make PP a little easier to obtain, give away packs on more special occasions, or otherwise cater more to F2P players - while still easily covering PT expenses, steady expansion to add to other parts of the game, and healthy profits.

The reaction to a game mode over-performing in large companies is often to cater to whales, sure, but the opposite reaction is incentivized here if PT does really well. OOTP is incentivized to bring more F2P people into the fold and ensure they keep enjoying themselves, since the whales won't leave once they like the game environment just because some people in the lower leagues are having a bit more fun, but will leave if there are no F2P players in the environment.

There's no real competition for what the devs have created here, not that I can see in the market, and anything close has far worse monetization and far more built-in community toxicity.

The only reason OOTP would cater more to whales over time is if PT completely flops in 19 (supremely unlikely, based on what I've played so far), and a cash-grab was the only way to save the company somehow. Can't imagine that's remotely realistic, even if the mode doesn't do as well as they hope, and it wouldn't work because losing all your fans for one cash burst isn't good business.

I plan to be largely (though probably not strictly) F2P in most versions going forward, and plan to move to 20 once it comes out, but I'll certainly be putting a bit of money into 19 anyways for that reason - to do my small piece in ensuring the devs get their sunk costs covered and feel on stable footing moving forward with this mode. I hope and expect that over time the F2P experience will improve gradually, not deteriorate, and all the incentives seem to point to that being the likely path.
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Old 10-21-2018, 02:35 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by ike121212 View Post
If there were a free to play league, where there was a true level playing field, I'd be excited to check this out.
This would be great, I hope to see it in future versions as well!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ike121212 View Post
I share the OP's concerns that this is on very shaky legal and ethical grounds.
Legally, see response above mine; ethically, it's not completely above any possible reproach, but there's so much transparency from the devs (Markus specifically) that it's hard to say the customers aren't fully informed about the game mode.
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Old 10-21-2018, 03:03 PM   #25
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Legally, see response above mine; ethically, it's not completely above any possible reproach, but there's so much transparency from the devs (Markus specifically) that it's hard to say the customers aren't fully informed about the game mode.
I won't pretend to have read all applicable loot box laws around the world or understand their efforts to comply.
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Old 10-21-2018, 03:15 PM   #26
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Will pack odds be disclosed for all the available pack types?

I just hope Markus and company tread these waters very carefully. With every thing going on in regards to "loot boxes" these days, I'd be very hesitant to jump into this concept. EA has the lawyer power to fight this, which they're doing, not sure the OOTP development team has that. I wish you guys the best, but please be careful...I don't want my favorite game going off the market.
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Old 10-22-2018, 10:31 AM   #27
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Will pack odds be disclosed for all the available pack types?
Yes
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Old 10-22-2018, 01:41 PM   #28
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I think what the devs have to understand about all the negativity surrounding PT is that historically speaking:
1. this model usually leads to it being impossible to compete without spending hundreds of dollars.
2. In the case of Madden, the introduction of Ultimate Team has significantly hurt franchise mode. Franchise in madden is garbage now, likely because development time and costs are being directed towards UT. It's understandable that people are afraid that this will happen with OOTP.

I'm okay with it, everyone has to make money somehow. But the regular game MUST come first. Always. If we start seeing a regression in quality, or a lack of improvement, people are going to jump ship.
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Old 10-22-2018, 09:14 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Cod View Post
Will pack odds be disclosed for all the available pack types?

in this post, Matt Arnold says:
"we'll give out the odds for packs so you know what you're getting."


http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...2&postcount=21

edit:
don't know how i missed the earlier post by Markus - who already answered it ...oops.
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Old 10-22-2018, 09:34 PM   #30
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in this post, Matt Arnold says:
"we'll give out the odds for packs so you know what you're getting."


http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...2&postcount=21

edit:
don't know how i missed the earlier post by Markus - who already answered it ...oops.
Oh, I didn't see that post. I was asking because that is how EA avoided the initial push by EU governments to remove loot boxes. That band-aid didn't last long though.
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Old 10-22-2018, 09:40 PM   #31
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I think Westheim said it best (and I paraphrase): it isn’t gambling because you have zero chance to win anything tangible and everyone knows it.
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Old 10-23-2018, 09:39 AM   #32
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It definitely isn’t gambling. It’s worse. It uses the same scientifically proven psychological method to get money as do slot machines and, as you say, provides no opportunity to win anything tangible.
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Old 10-23-2018, 12:39 PM   #33
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I have never put money in a slot machine because I can contain myself.

The problem is rarely with a range of products in this category on offer; it is with people having no control over their actions due to weak predispositions. "Whales" don't typically spend tons of money on a video (or other) game because they don't know where to put their millions, but because they hope to gain any sort of satisfaction in life, and even if it is just being on some sort of leaderboard. I don't consider rational, sane people to fall into that hole so easily.

However, it is my firm belief that it is not the responsibility of game developers to cater to the weakest 5% that can't handle what is out there. Like with cars and liquor, the problem is not with either of those items but with idiots using them in conjunction; the main problem is not with the game or slot machines or loot boxes, it is with the player with weak impulse control who has to have the best of everything, be it a super-rare weapon with special skin, be it scratch-out tickets, FIFA player packs, or Babe Ruth in Perfect Team in OOTP.

If anybody should look after the weakest 5%, it is the government, and so far not a whole lot is moving on that front. I don't know about lottery f.e. in the US, but over here most lotteries are state-run, advertise in visible places, and are very much preying on the gullible fools that should know better. In the end, families have to watch out for them and get help for them, but it is not the job of the game company to curtail the fun for the 95% that can handle it.

---

Addendum! What I am trying to say is, if you want game concepts like this to end, get the government to do it, But good luck trying to do so, because the government will earn $ on any loot box etc. purchase that is made.
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Old 10-23-2018, 01:03 PM   #34
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I’m not saying it’s ilegal or should be regulated. I’m saying it’s wrong. What is legal or easy and what is right or wrong are not the same. I don’t want the government to do it. That’s not productive and not my point. My point is the behavior of this model and those that do it is reprehensible.

I have high net worth. I could pay whatever I wanted for this or MUT or whatever. Lots of people don’t and also, you are not addressing the ludic loop and psychological aspects intentionally built in to this model, and I mean intentional, with scientific research behind them, designed to take advantage of people with low means or low self discipline. And it’s way more than 5%. But even if it were 5%, it’s still disgusting. It’s worse than stealing because of the hypocrisy behind it.

I’m a libertarian. I say individual responsibility is huge. But guess what, I don’t go taking advantage of people who don’t know better. It’s hard to think of a non violent act more despicable.

I’m done with buying OOTP as a result.

You all can do what your conscience tells you. But you really shouldn’t ignore the truth in so doing.
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Old 10-23-2018, 01:11 PM   #35
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Look at what people do and argue about over meaningless Challenge Mode achievements. Ludic loop and the science behind it in action. People saying they’re immune to that in this thread, who I like and respect, are among those hung up on Challenge Mode issues and pretend achievements and rewards. This is the same to a level with money involved in the loop. And it’s a one way, dead end street of disgusting moral behavior on the part of developers in pursuit of cash.
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Old 10-23-2018, 01:51 PM   #36
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IĀ’m not saying itĀ’s ilegal or should be regulated. IĀ’m saying itĀ’s wrong. What is legal or easy and what is right or wrong are not the same. I donĀ’t want the government to do it. ThatĀ’s not productive and not my point. My point is the behavior of this model and those that do it is reprehensible.

I have high net worth. I could pay whatever I wanted for this or MUT or whatever. Lots of people donĀ’t and also, you are not addressing the ludic loop and psychological aspects intentionally built in to this model, and I mean intentional, with scientific research behind them, designed to take advantage of people with low means or low self discipline. And itĀ’s way more than 5%. But even if it were 5%, itĀ’s still disgusting. ItĀ’s worse than stealing because of the hypocrisy behind it.

IĀ’m a libertarian. I say individual responsibility is huge. But guess what, I donĀ’t go taking advantage of people who donĀ’t know better. ItĀ’s hard to think of a non violent act more despicable.

IĀ’m done with buying OOTP as a result.

You all can do what your conscience tells you. But you really shouldnĀ’t ignore the truth in so doing.

I guess my question would be, what is your solution? As an adult who is responsible with my finances, why should I denied or penalized because somebody else might have a problem. I may never spend a penny on Perfect Points them but why should I have that option taken away from me because of the problems of a minority?


You point out the problem, you constantly mention ludic loop, and you say you are done with OOTP because of it. But do you live in a state with a lottery and scratch off cards? If so maybe you should move. Ever eaten in an establishment that has slot machines (they are pretty common in my town)? Maybe you should boycott those.

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Old 10-23-2018, 01:58 PM   #37
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I guess my question would be, what is your solution? As an adult who is responsible with my finances, why should I denied or penalized because somebody else might have a problem. I may never spend a penny on Perfect Points them but why should I have that option taken away from me because of the problems of a minority?


You point out the problem, you constantly mention ludic loop, and you say you are done with OOTP because of it. But do you live in a state with a lottery and scratch off cards? If so maybe you should move. Ever eaten in an establishment that has slot machines (they are pretty common in my town)? Maybe you should boycott those.

My solution is to not give my money to people who, in my personal opinion, act in what I believe to be an unethical and/or disgusting manner.

And no one is telling you you can't give your money to such people. Nice straw man.


I do live in a state with those items. I don't give them my money and I advocate against them. Again, just because something is law, doesn't make it right. And I don't eat in an establishment with such machines. So, I think I've answered your questions. Principles aren't flexible or else they're not principles.
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Old 10-23-2018, 02:08 PM   #38
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Look at what people do and argue about over meaningless Challenge Mode achievements. Ludic loop and the science behind it in action. People saying they’re immune to that in this thread, who I like and respect, are among those hung up on Challenge Mode issues and pretend achievements and rewards.

I like you too, Airdrop!
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Old 10-23-2018, 02:09 PM   #39
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My solution is to not give my money to people who, in my personal opinion, act in what I believe to be an unethical and/or disgusting manner.


I do live in a state with those items. I don't give them my money and I advocate against them. Again, just because something is law, doesn't make it right. And I don't eat in an establishment with such machines. So, I think I've answered your questions. Principles aren't flexible or else they're not principles.
Well, then I give you credit for sticking by your principles and making a stand. As long as you realize that not everyone agrees with your viewpoint on the matter in regards as to what is unethical or disgusting.
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Old 10-23-2018, 02:29 PM   #40
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Well, then I give you credit for sticking by your principles and making a stand. As long as you realize that not everyone agrees with your viewpoint on the matter in regards as to what is unethical or disgusting.
It's not often an owner of a company answers almost daily the concerns of his customers. Markus has put a couple of decades into this project/business and it's purely a small, niche business. He and all of the OOTP staff love working for all of us to provide something really special, really unique.

I think we have to give them the benefit of the doubt at this moment in time and see were PT leads. It may well lead to a larger business with more engineers/developers and cooler upgrades all around.

OOTP 19 - the 19th iteration? is still not perfect. They are working toward that goal and it is, in my opinion, by far the best baseball software product ever produced. We see the increasing benefits of their work. PT seems incredibly well-thought-out and exciting.
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