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Old 03-07-2013, 10:26 AM   #81
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I fully, 100% agree on that one! Maybe I'm too old school - but the NHL of today - while good - is (at least to me) NO WHERE near as enjoyable a spectacle as the game was in the '70s and '80s (and even into the early '90s) when brawling was still allowed - players policed themselves and each other and scoring was off the scale. Given the nature of today's game (as outlined in the posts earlier in this thread) I seriously doubt we'll ever see the game revert to the style of game we older-timers enjoyed 30 or more years ago - and records posted by guys like Orr, Espo, Hull, Coffey and, oh yeah, those two other guys - Gretzky and Lemieux - lol -- are probably safe at least through my lifetime, if not my daughter's (and she just turned 4).

Sad... very sad. I loved the 'old' game and lament its changes. Truly, as the previous poster said so beautiful - "older was definitely better".
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:46 AM   #82
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I'm not going to read all that discussion, seems like an easy topic. There is likely a variable somewhere that defines how often fights occur. The request is to give the user access that value so they can create whichever era they want.

I guess in my eyes I would put randomness in place that says x% of fights become line brawls and y% become bench clearing rock 'em sock 'em brawls. Then I would bump those percentages up a bit after every fight within a single game. That way a game with one fight is far less likely to have a bench clearing brawl than a game with multiple fights. If we wanted to have some real fun perhaps that percentage somehow carries forward from one game to the next to simulate how things can sometimes carry forward between to teams.

Just saying - doesn't matter how you want to play the game, just open the box a bit an give the user some control. Get carried away and you might be simming the QSPHL or the old Federal league from SlapShot. Just don't then complain about the goal totals being out of wack when you have 250 PIMs a game. [/rant]
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:04 AM   #83
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The variable is get rid of Bettman and bring back Clarence Campbell or John Zeigler...... except you can't go back.
p.s. talking about the real NHL, not the game.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:49 AM   #84
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Since fighting exists in the NHL, if it is going to be in FHM, I would simply like to see fighting to be simulated as the tool that it is in real life. If, for example, a player is fighting as a momentum changer then if he is successful, I would like to see FHM simulate as such and provide me with some sort of feedback that tells me that.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:06 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Riverdome View Post
I'm not going to read all that discussion, seems like an easy topic. There is likely a variable somewhere that defines how often fights occur. The request is to give the user access that value so they can create whichever era they want.

I guess in my eyes I would put randomness in place that says x% of fights become line brawls and y% become bench clearing rock 'em sock 'em brawls. Then I would bump those percentages up a bit after every fight within a single game. That way a game with one fight is far less likely to have a bench clearing brawl than a game with multiple fights. If we wanted to have some real fun perhaps that percentage somehow carries forward from one game to the next to simulate how things can sometimes carry forward between to teams.

Just saying - doesn't matter how you want to play the game, just open the box a bit an give the user some control. Get carried away and you might be simming the QSPHL or the old Federal league from SlapShot. Just don't then complain about the goal totals being out of wack when you have 250 PIMs a game. [/rant]
Brillient take!! Fully agreed with this!

I'd add regarding the variable - I'd think the smart - and accurate - design would be to have separate variables that determine not only how frequently fighting occurs - but what KIND - meaning - just a pair of players square off - third-man in - multi-player - line brawl - full-on bench clear.

either way - if handled correctly, like you said, putting it into the hands of the end user to make some pre-set adjustments - we'd be able to very accurately simulate specific eras, each of which had their own very distinct style of play. the game is so different today than 35-40 years ago ... or - maybe better said - the game of 35-40 years ago was so different from today's game.
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:46 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Riverdome View Post
I'm not going to read all that discussion, seems like an easy topic. There is likely a variable somewhere that defines how often fights occur. The request is to give the user access that value so they can create whichever era they want.

I guess in my eyes I would put randomness in place that says x% of fights become line brawls and y% become bench clearing rock 'em sock 'em brawls. Then I would bump those percentages up a bit after every fight within a single game. That way a game with one fight is far less likely to have a bench clearing brawl than a game with multiple fights. If we wanted to have some real fun perhaps that percentage somehow carries forward from one game to the next to simulate how things can sometimes carry forward between to teams.

Just saying - doesn't matter how you want to play the game, just open the box a bit an give the user some control. Get carried away and you might be simming the QSPHL or the old Federal league from SlapShot. Just don't then complain about the goal totals being out of wack when you have 250 PIMs a game. [/rant]
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Brillient take!! Fully agreed with this!

I'd add regarding the variable - I'd think the smart - and accurate - design would be to have separate variables that determine not only how frequently fighting occurs - but what KIND - meaning - just a pair of players square off - third-man in - multi-player - line brawl - full-on bench clear.

either way - if handled correctly, like you said, putting it into the hands of the end user to make some pre-set adjustments - we'd be able to very accurately simulate specific eras, each of which had their own very distinct style of play. the game is so different today than 35-40 years ago ... or - maybe better said - the game of 35-40 years ago was so different from today's game.
These two comments are precisely why i started this thread
not to discuss the topic, but to find the best ways to accurately simulate the various eras of pro hockey and their fighting-brawling frequency,
then with that in place the user can use the eras as they please from no fights-brawls, to 70-80's levels
though there were far more brawls in the 1920's and 30's just the incident would recieve 15 penalty minutes total, so goes unnoticed in the modern 400 pim game

Thanks for posting guys,
Hope jeff gets a chance to drop by, and see about adding a x, and y value as suggested
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:41 PM   #87
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Hi Sprague - yep - I was thrilled when you started this thread and have followed it for quite a while before joining the fray. I've long been a critic of how hockey sims - whether the old-fashioned table-top board games or PC sims - have NOT accurately represented the kind of fighting and penalty distribution that was more common 30-40 years ago. I've never understood WHY - whether was just a philosophical thing (preference for more sanitized European style) - or if it was just too difficult to program/design - whatever the reason, it's historically been a GLARING omission from virtually every sim produced, save one currently on the market (a competitor - won't mention names - but they've taken some BIG strides in their most recent release to get it right) -- -- and as I recall there was also at least a step in the right direction way back in the day in the old APBA hockey (the DOS game actually had multiple-player fights break out now and then) But still...

I had table-top games that I ended up making a PLETHORA of additional charts (upon charts upon charts - lol) to add in line brawls, bench clears, end-of-period melees ... I grew up on the rock-em, sock-em brand that was the NHL in the 70s - and went to minor league games for the farm team of the Broad Street Bullies starting in 1971 'til the team moved out of town in the mid-to-late '70s - so I've LONG been a diehard fan of the brawling style of play that was common in those days.

I've never liked that the sims really have never gotten it right. So I'm hopeful that Jeff, Sebastian, and the other guys on the team - like you said - will happen by and see this and get some good ideas about how to make this IMPORTANT part of the way the game was played actually happen! Believe me, I'd love to see it accurately replicated!!

Last edited by Probert24; 03-08-2013 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:51 PM   #88
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Hey guys,



I have a mac so im waiting for word on beta in regards to that. I am interested in how the fighting works in the game? Is it mostly fighters and middleweights that scrap? Is there any description of the fight? Does it tell you who won? Have you seen multiple fights in games? Does the a.i dress heavyweights on a nightly basis? Any fight related info would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:36 PM   #89
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Hey guys,



I have a mac so im waiting for word on beta in regards to that. I am interested in how the fighting works in the game? Is it mostly fighters and middleweights that scrap? Is there any description of the fight? Does it tell you who won? Have you seen multiple fights in games? Does the a.i dress heavyweights on a nightly basis? Any fight related info would be greatly appreciated.

Hi diesel - me too - I have a Mac and am waiting it out 'til the Mac-native version is released - but I'm also very much interested to see how the game handles fighting. like Sprague - i'm very much in the camp that says - if it leaves out line brawls, bench clears, end-of-period/game melees, etc., particularly from the older seasons, then they didn't do their homework and definitely didn't get it right. I'd love to see a game finally - after all these years - actually get it down correctly!
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:30 AM   #90
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Hi

Great game so far! Big Thanks to everyone for making this true.

But my question can you make Fighter little better? Not single team is playing their enforcers in this game. Is tough when you play Boston and you have no one to fight :-)

But serious fighters dont play and fighters dont fight. In my game Ovechkin and Crosby are fighting. And Jamie Benn all the time. And if somebody is injured teams dont play their fighters and they call some nobody from farm.

I need little more fights and fighters playing. In real life they are playing lots. Not that much we use to see in 80 and 90. But guys like Boll, Dorsett, Reaves, McGrattan, Orr, McLaren, Carkner, Martin, Rinaldo, Scott, Kaleta, Prust, Westgarth, Barch, Bickel, Asham, Konopka, Rupp, Tootoo, Erkskine, Peluso, Parros, Labrie, Crombeen, Brookbank, Bollig/Mayers, Bordeleau, Brown, Bissonnette etc etc are playing almoust every game.

Misconduct more and injured after hit and suspensions.
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:19 PM   #91
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The game sounds wonderful so far, I just hope you guys take the fighting aspect serious and blending in the players who play a rough and tumble game. The fact that every tough guy sounds to be scratched all season sickens me and confuses me as to why the game is coded like this.

I look to play a physical in your face brand of hockey much like the Bruins and Maple Leafs.. I hope the other team looks at this and juggles they`re line to match my lineups in some sense.

I don`t expect the game to go full force and worry about fighting as they`re primary concern. but if you think the entire NHL is going to scratch every Enforcer for the seasob and I`m going to enjoy having Patrick Kaleta massing 20+ fights a year while John Scott is scratched all season as I`m manning a fourth line of Kassian, Rinaldo and Neil this game is going to be sour to me!
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Old 07-12-2013, 04:19 AM   #92
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JeffR or anybody in FHM team. Any info about this fight/enforcer thing? any updates or something.
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Old 08-19-2013, 01:53 PM   #93
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Can someone who is trying out the beta chime in on what you're finding here? Are fight totals accurate? Are there multiple fights at the same time/brawls? Goalie fights? How is the winner of a fight determined? Is there simply a single rating for how often a player fights and how skilled he is at it?
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Old 08-19-2013, 02:24 PM   #94
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Can someone who is trying out the beta chime in on what you're finding here? Are fight totals accurate? Are there multiple fights at the same time/brawls? Goalie fights? How is the winner of a fight determined? Is there simply a single rating for how often a player fights and how skilled he is at it?
This i tough to answer because fight totals are not active right now so there is no real way to answer other than it's not working right now.
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Old 08-19-2013, 02:54 PM   #95
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Can someone who is trying out the beta chime in on what you're finding here? Are fight totals accurate? Are there multiple fights at the same time/brawls? Goalie fights? How is the winner of a fight determined? Is there simply a single rating for how often a player fights and how skilled he is at it?
fight totals: It seems that the game engine forces players/teams to accumulate a certain number of fights over the course of a season. But since AI teams put wrong (i.e. no) value to tough guys/enforcers, rosters are usually pretty thin in terms of fighters. So guys drop the gloves who wouldn't in real life and accumulate an unrealistic number of fighting majors.

scrums/multiple fights/brawls: none of that implemented

goalie fights: not implemented

ratings: yes, there are ratings for fighting ability and willingness to fight

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Old 06-24-2016, 08:21 AM   #96
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Will this area finally be addressed for the next FHM ?
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Old 07-06-2016, 02:04 PM   #97
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I've been a hockey (and NHL) fan for 25+ years now. Love the game. Used to love it a lot more, back in the 80s and early 90s. But still love it today. The overall skill level from top to bottom on a roster today is amazing.

Fighting is a part of hockey, for sure. I can understand the spontaneous fights and the fights that break out to protect a teammate who isn't a fighter or who was roughed up unnecessarily by the opposition. But the so-called "staged" fights? That's crap, plain and simple. A staged fight has absolutely nothing to do with playing hockey. It's akin to two MMA fighters coming into the ring and before they fight, they play badminton.

I've watched a lot of NHL games, and to be honest, most of the fighting today is border-line staged material. It's just two "tough" guys yapping and then thinking they need to stand up to one another so they personally don't appear weak or scared. Most of it nowadays has nothing to do with standing up for teammates or trying to swing momentum. That still happens, sure, but most fights happen today for fighting's sake.

I'm an advocate for getting rid of fighting. That being said, the NHL does a horrible job on the ice of actually officiating a game. If you brought the hammer down on players for certain cheap shots and stick work, it would go away, and the game would be smoother and cleaner for it. Look at the broken stick rule. Any player will immediately drop his stick the moment it breaks to keep from getting penalized. So it can be done. Players can adapt and learn.

I don't think the NHL will ever seriously enforce the rules and break the culture as it is now, though. They cherish this "tough" image, players with missing teeth, shoving and acting tough after a whistle, all the while waiting for the officials to slowly move you away when you have no real intention of doing anything. That stuff is, frankly, frustrating and takes away from the game.

The NHL should start penalizing players for scrumming around after whistles just so they can look like they're tough and brave in front of 18,000 people. That being said, players should quit acting like children when they take a check and get all pissed off like someone has to get paid back. HITTING IS PART OF THE GAME. Take the hit. Deliver clean hits. That is HOCKEY.

The argument is that skilled players would get destroyed if there was no fighting. Not if the rules were actually enforced. Starting imposing actual fines and penalties for stick work. Players can control their sticks. Fighting exists basically because the league doesn't stand up and protect the players, so they do it themselves. And again, don't see it happening with the culture as it is now in the NHL.

All of that being said - fighting and physicality can't be ignored in a hockey sim. It was -- and is -- part of the game. IMHO, fighting today doesn't have the same affect it did 20-30 years ago, because players who fight act more like MMA fighters and fight for reasons other than the traditional ones.
AMEN.
I'm tired of that crap too.
And agreed on all account on how poorly the NHL and it's official police the game.

Goons pretty much no longer exist at the NHL level. They're employed in lower-leagues only as a way to sell tickets.

It was different in the 70's and 80's when guys like Shutlz, Probie or McSorley could keep up and take a regular shift.
But today, Boogard, and now Scott, look like a bus on a racetrack full of Ferrari's.
And they refuse to fight non-fighters too. Probert wouldn't have thought twice about popping a non-fighter if they looked sideways at Steve Yzerman. Same with Semenko.
But in today's NHL, if a rat does something, then the goons fight each other.
Tell me where the Rat learned his lessen in all of that?

Besides, fighting really doesn't prevent the stick work. Look at Matt Cooke. He ended Marc Savardís career and all he had to do was fight Shawn Thornton. A fight he didnít do poorly in.
He continued acting like an idiot despite getting in multiple fights Ė even getting KOíd by Evander Kane.
He didnít stop being Matt Cooke.
So what stopped him? A 17-game suspension from the NHL. Now heís a different person.

There is so much money in being an NHL regular that there are thousands of guys willing to wrestle with a bear in order to keep that paycheck.
And GMís are more than willing to employ rats knowing their dangerous to the sport. Just look at Detroit? They just signed Steve Ott, one of the biggest scumbags in the game.
He doesnít even know thereís a puck on the ice. Holland can say heís there to keep guys honest but thatís bunk. Heís not an enforcer. What heíll do is spear someone in the eye the minute the refs arenít looking. Heís usually the REASON for fights breaking out Ė not to deter them. Or to deter dirty play.
But a guy like Ott would GLADLY have to fight the John Scottís or Milan Lucicís of the NHL in order to stay in the league and make the money he has.

Thatís why itís up to the NHL to get rid of all that crap. Start calling every single stick infraction. Itís usually a spear or slash that gets guys ticked off.
Iíve never understood why officials let players get away with constantly whacking opponents over the hands. The stick should be used for passing, shooting, deflecting, blocking passes or lifting a stick.
Not as a baseball bat. The minute the blade of the stick touches any opponents body, itís a stick infraction. Done.
Now we donít have to worry about idiots like Ott, Marchand, Torres, Tom Wilson, etc, etc.

I donít mind a good fight. Iíll watch it. Most human beings would. But I wouldnít cry one iota if the NHL banned fighting and removed it from the game entirely.
The best hockey any fan will see all year is in the World JR championships and Olympics. And there is zero fighting in those tournaments.
The real reason fighting still exists is because the NHL knows its product is so crap they need to have a side-show to sell tickets and pump TV ratings.
Thatís why I donít understand why they wonít force the officials to call the game as itís written so that the star players can shine.
Crosby won the Conn Smythe despite scoring 0 goals in the Final. Thatís not his fault Nobody worked harder or generated more scoring chances. Itís just too friggin hard to score with arms and sticks wrapped around your body for 6 games.
If Lebron James averaged 8 points a game in the NBA Finals to win the MVP, youíd bet your arse the league would force changes.
They know that fans want to see the best players shine on a nightly basis. And their ratings prove itís working.
Can the NHL say the same? Not when when the Art Ross winner is the only one to score more than 100 points. That didnít even happen in í14-í15. And yet, the NHL did what it always does. Nothing.
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