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Old 02-17-2012, 06:25 AM   #1
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Fights, Brawls and tough guys

While modern hockey is on the decline in these areas...they still exist- esp now the russian k-league
and if we are doing historical play of any kind, this feature should be a part of the game. Even though I know you may not be starting with actual players out of the box, we can change the names, and as long as the features of the game support it we can make Scott Stevens, Red Horner, Ted Green and Dave Semenko key parts of the overall gameplay

One of the great things about ootp is that everything is customizeable
we can change each aspect of play as we choose
i hope the hockey feature keeps that in mind. we can choose a no fight league to a high fight league if we want. so for example the mention of suspension. we should have the choice like said: low, average, high, very high ect.

for me some keys to make this a real-life game
1- actual value for tough guys and fighters. winning a fight should give the team a boost. Dave Schultz and John Fergusson turned games around with a fight win

2-more physical play in early era hockey. 1930's and 40's was tough. but again in the game is customizable we can alter players as we see fit
A big bodycheck rating where you can injure someone for a Scott Stevens or a Leo Boivin

3 bench emptying brawls. While not common anymore, 30-40 years ago you had one or two a month in the nhl, and lots in major junior.
there should be a button for the coach at any time can clear his bench if he wants...could at least wait until a fight is actually in progress

key suggestion for brawls though- even if some sort of line brawl is to be added into the game....don't do what strat o matic did for example. They just had a place on the chart where a line brawl took place and top 4 players on ice penalty wise got 5+misconduct. that was unreasonable if my #3 penalty guy happened to be mats naslund. he's not going to fight just becauase a box says so. What if its Buch Goring or Dave Keon? They go from 2 penalty minutes a year to 15. So it makes sense to have something like
Line Brawl ? if X# of players over 100 pim on ice.
However without a brawl feature...just won't be a real hockey simulation.
If i have the Oshawa Generals 1981 or Boston Bruins 1970 or Montreal Canadiens 1931 I should expect some big dust ups during the season

4 special plays
I made a modified strat chart for penalties that gave certain players (who got a crazy rating ie Ted Lindsay or Steve Durbano) the slight chance to run a goalie, punch a ref, jump in the crowd, attack a team's best player...nice feature, happened once or twice in a season.


Anyway wanted to throw all this out there. It is the most glaring area missing in all attempts and making a hocke sim out there. This goes in the game, even if not perfect from the start but addressed- I almost guarantee a number of converts from other games. I know of 10-20 right now over a strat who come on board tomorrow if these things were available
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Old 02-17-2012, 10:07 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sprague View Post
While modern hockey is on the decline in these areas...they still exist- esp now the russian k-league
You're American/Canadian? I don't mean to cause any offence or anything of that kind but I don't understand why you'd put that about the Russian league? Fighting isn't a part of Euro hockey, it hardly happens and isn't really the 'highlight of the game'.. Especially in Russia! Just be that idiot Yablonski (what ever is name is) Ended up in the league. He's had countless suspensions and the majority of people hate him and his team Vityaz for employing such tactics!... Anyway back to the post..

I agree with you on this post. It would be really cool to be able to make say a 'no fight league' or a 'high fight league' what for instance you could just employ all enforcers, I guess it be similar to the LNAH! Nice idea!
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Old 02-17-2012, 11:55 AM   #3
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Christopher Brennan is Vityaz' top goon. Over 200 PIMs in just thirteen games.

Man, this team has the top four league leaders in penalties.
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Old 02-17-2012, 12:11 PM   #4
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I'd much rather they put their time into developing a hockey game than a hackey game.
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Old 02-17-2012, 02:21 PM   #5
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I'd much rather they put their time into developing a hockey game than a hackey game.
Well, like it or not, Fighting has been apart of hockey since the early 1900's. And it's been a factor over the decades in the NHL, look no further then the 70's Flyers, and many other leagues around North America. As mentioned, some minor pro leagues would build teams of fighters to intimidate others, and you know what, it would work in some years. Nothing wore a teams morale down more in the playoff series back in the day then the Intimidation factor.

Fighting was not just goon play. It was how the players were protected. You see now how much #%#@ Phil Kessel or Sidney Crosby takes every game? Well Wayne Gretzky didn't have to put up with nearly that much because he had Marty McSorley playing with him - if you give him a shot, a hard hit, or even looked at him the wrong way Marty would be all over your ass. The league now with the instigator has changed this so now the stars put up with alot more then before. Fighting in hockey is not for the goons, it WAS for the (protection) of it's stars.

Ignoring fighting in a hockey sim (historic or present day) would be like ignoring the amount of hits in a game.

Anyways, it would be great to have the option to ban fighting in the league and change the rule on the severity of that penalty.
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Old 02-17-2012, 02:44 PM   #6
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Well, like it or not, Fighting has been apart of hockey since the early 1900's. And it's been a factor over the decades in the NHL, look no further then the 70's Flyers, and many other leagues around North America. As mentioned, some minor pro leagues would build teams of fighters to intimidate others, and you know what, it would work in some years. Nothing wore a teams morale down more in the playoff series back in the day then the Intimidation factor.

Fighting was not just goon play. It was how the players were protected. You see now how much #%#@ Phil Kessel or Sidney Crosby takes every game? Well Wayne Gretzky didn't have to put up with nearly that much because he had Marty McSorley playing with him - if you give him a shot, a hard hit, or even looked at him the wrong way Marty would be all over your ass. The league now with the instigator has changed this so now the stars put up with alot more then before. Fighting in hockey is not for the goons, it WAS for the (protection) of it's stars.

Ignoring fighting in a hockey sim (historic or present day) would be like ignoring the amount of hits in a game.

Anyways, it would be great to have the option to ban fighting in the league and change the rule on the severity of that penalty.
I know all about fighting in hockey thank you, I've followed the sport religiously since the 50's. I'm really glad the Schultz's and Gillies and McSorely's are long gone from the NHL. They couldn't play hockey, they played hackey and were a black eye to the game. That's just my opinion, I know others differ and I respect that.

I'm not advocating to not have it in the game, I like a good fight just as much as the next guy. I'd just like to see them get the actual "hockey" part of the game right first. Some of the points made by the op are an over-exageration to say the least.
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Old 02-18-2012, 03:40 PM   #7
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I know all about fighting in hockey thank you, I've followed the sport religiously since the 50's. I'm really glad the Schultz's and Gillies and McSorely's are long gone from the NHL. They couldn't play hockey, they played hackey and were a black eye to the game. That's just my opinion, I know others differ and I respect that.

I'm not advocating to not have it in the game, I like a good fight just as much as the next guy. I'd just like to see them get the actual "hockey" part of the game right first. Some of the points made by the op are an over-exageration to say the least.

I never said you didn't know about fighting, but those guys you just mentioned all could PLAY hockey. Players like Matt Cooke, Sean Avery, Patrick Kaleta's are far better to have for the game....right? Sure they too could play but its damned embarrassing to watch them dive, flop, embellish, turtle, whine to the refs constantly all the while hiding behind the rules of the new nhl.

I do agree that certain hockey aspects would take obviously take priority but still when you say the actual "hockey" and in quotes my interpretation is that you're implying fighting is not part of hockey....and it is. Just like a big hit, a good fight can change momentum of a game, yes not all the time like the op says but on some occasions it would. Now how to determine that for a hockey sim i could see as being challenging.

Fighting is a sensitive issue with me in hockey Damn NHL won't decide fully if they want it or not in their league...anyways all a conversation for another place i suppose.
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Old 02-18-2012, 05:52 PM   #8
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I didn't start this thread to get into a discussion about how hockey is or should be played, or whether someone likes or dislikes fighting and tough play

I started it to say it IS, and especially WAS a part of the game. All of the computer attempts out there have ignored this issue and this area of the game. Most games just try to tack on penalty minutes for players by giving them a bunch of misconducts, which is not realistic.
These players were on their teams for a reason. Even back to 1930's. The Leafs made sure Red Horner was on the ice every time Eddie Shore was- ok they played 50 minutes a night back then, but the point was, when one was on, the other was on. just in case

It was a factor in the game, and should be a factor or at least the option of being a factor. I like you could turn them on or off as needed. But again, if i play a 7 game series between Montreal-Quebec or Emonton-Calgary in the 80;s or Montreal-Toronto in the 40's, there should be a chace the benches empty in the course of that series for example.

As a former professional player and coach I feel I have a good idea of how things go. Sometimes a fight does really nothing to the flow of a game. Other times, it can literally change the entire game. Down 2-0, our team wins a fight, even getting an extra penatly the players have a new adrenaline, we kill it off, then bang score 2 quick goals to tie it up

This is the #1 thing missing in ALL games out there, and is why hockey historians that I know like myself do not play any comptuer version out there- no game is realistic.
I started this thread with the hope that the group who has taken this project will keep up the great work put into ootp baseball, and made it a bang up game...
This not to make a hockey game based on how you WISH hockey was, but how hockey IS. Ted Lindsay, Bobby Clarke, John Ferguson and Chris Nilan all played roles on ther teams to win stanley cups, and part of it was physically. This needs to be represented here. Chris Nilan gets into 30 fights a year, but if somehow his ratings are so handicapped, and his winning fights of no value, then he will never play in the lineup, and that will make any season replay of that year unrealistic.
Realism=was things are.

One past said the op (me) overexagerated. A hockey game without factoring in fights and brawls is like a football game without punting or a baseball game without errors. They are there and are just as much of hockey as anything else. Personal opinions are not the issue, but the overall game product at the end. A great hockey game will touch on all areas of hockey- not just the ones that are the most pretty

As for the Russian Klm league- the biggest hockey brawls worldwide the last 3 years have all been in the russian league- take a browse on youtube if you don't believe me.
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Old 02-18-2012, 07:23 PM   #9
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I suppose what this all boils down to is having some sort of customisation over the playing style in order to allow for truly authentic historic rosters (and for differences in playing styles between different leagues/nations).

IMO fighting still has some importance certainly in the North American leagues but clearly not as much as in the past (as people have already discussed above). Perhaps some sort of playing style settings could be introduced to reflect the importance on a league by league basis. So those wanting to create authentic historic rosters from something like the 1970s could do so. Perhaps this setting could make intimidation players more attractive to GMs and that winning fights in matches has a greater positive effect on the team (i.e. in order to recreate the success the 70s Flyers, etc had with intimidation).

No doubt there are other differences in playing style when looking back at decades gone (I know little about hockey before the mid 90s) which maybe could also be the subject of some sort of settings. Maybe this could be the icing on the cake once OOTP's hockey game has been developed and released for a while.

P.s. I personally absolutely disagree with fighting in hockey (just my personal view of course). Although I appreciate it can pump up a team, I personally feel that the game wouldn't suffer in its absence. Nonetheless, it's important that such an aspect is accurately simulated in the game.
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Old 02-18-2012, 08:55 PM   #10
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P.s. I personally absolutely disagree with fighting in hockey (just my personal view of course). Although I appreciate it can pump up a team, I personally feel that the game wouldn't suffer in its absence. Nonetheless, it's important that such an aspect is accurately simulated in the game.

If the NHL got rid of fighting completely (which they should either do that or get rid of the instigator penalty) then the league would have to suspend more players for a much longer time, and the way i see it the fans will miss out on that one too. Most importantly without fighting, what will the media have to whine about?
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Old 02-19-2012, 05:36 AM   #11
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I never said you didn't know about fighting, but those guys you just mentioned all could PLAY hockey.
Guys like Schultz, Gillies, McSorely, Semenko were there for one reason and one reason only - to beat people up when they went near a Gretzky or a Bossy or a MacLeish/Leach type player - they couldn't play hockey, they played hackey. Sure, they racked up some points. Put me on a line with Gretzky and I'll rack up points too, even though I don't have anywhere near the skill level to play in the NHL. We can just agree to disagree on that issue.


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Players like Matt Cooke, Sean Avery, Patrick Kaleta's are far better to have for the game....right?
Nope, I wish those guys were gone from the game too.

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Sure they too could play but its damned embarrassing to watch them dive, flop, embellish, turtle, whine to the refs constantly all the while hiding behind the rules of the new nhl.

I do agree that certain hockey aspects would take obviously take priority but still when you say the actual "hockey" and in quotes my interpretation is that you're implying fighting is not part of hockey....and it is. Just like a big hit, a good fight can change momentum of a game, yes not all the time like the op says but on some occasions it would. Now how to determine that for a hockey sim i could see as being challenging.
I didn't say fighting isn't part of hockey. I did say that I enjoy a good fight just as much as the next guy.

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Fighting is a sensitive issue with me in hockey Damn NHL won't decide fully if they want it or not in their league...anyways all a conversation for another place i suppose.
Agree with you completely on that.
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Old 02-19-2012, 05:57 AM   #12
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If the NHL got rid of fighting completely (which they should either do that or get rid of the instigator penalty) then the league would have to suspend more players for a much longer time, and the way i see it the fans will miss out on that one too. Most importantly without fighting, what will the media have to whine about?
Just curious, but why do you think they'd have to suspend more players for a longer time?

Just thinking out loud here, but I feel if they banned fighting it wouldn't take long before the pest type players wouldn't have a place in the game and teams would be more intent on signing "skill" type players. Of course I could be wrong. I'm sure there'd always be the GM who would look for ways to slow down the other teams skill guys. But then I wouldn't mind at all if the pest type players got suspended longer.
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:40 AM   #13
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[QUOTE=Bluenoser;3264104]Guys like Schultz, Gillies, McSorely, Semenko were there for one reason and one reason only - to beat people up when they went near a Gretzky or a Bossy or a MacLeish/Leach type player - they couldn't play hockey, they played hackey. Sure, they racked up some points. Put me on a line with Gretzky and I'll rack up points too, even though I don't have anywhere near the skill level to play in the NHL. We can just agree to disagree on that issue.


I'm sorry. I know this has really nothing to do with the real discussion here, but I have to stop you all here for a second. Clark Gillies, in no way whatsoever, should be mentioned in the same breath with players like Schultz. McSorely, or Semenko. Clark Gillies was not a fighter. Yes, when he was called upon to be one, he was possibly the best damn fighter in the league, but he was reluctant to do so. Clark Gillies was a pretty darn good goal scorer who played a disciplined game up and down his wing. He was inducted in the Hockey Hall of Fame in 2002. I don't think you will find the other players mentioned above in the HOF.
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Old 02-19-2012, 04:02 PM   #14
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I'm sorry. I know this has really nothing to do with the real discussion here, but I have to stop you all here for a second. Clark Gillies, in no way whatsoever, should be mentioned in the same breath with players like Schultz. McSorely, or Semenko. Clark Gillies was not a fighter. Yes, when he was called upon to be one, he was possibly the best damn fighter in the league, but he was reluctant to do so. Clark Gillies was a pretty darn good goal scorer who played a disciplined game up and down his wing. He was inducted in the Hockey Hall of Fame in 2002. I don't think you will find the other players mentioned above in the HOF.
Also never broke 100 penalty minutes in a season. If he was a goon, he was doing it wrong.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:33 PM   #15
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Guys like Schultz, Gillies, McSorely, Semenko were there for one reason and one reason only - to beat people up when they went near a Gretzky or a Bossy or a MacLeish/Leach type player - they couldn't play hockey, they played hackey. Sure, they racked up some points. Put me on a line with Gretzky and I'll rack up points too, even though I don't have anywhere near the skill level to play in the NHL. We can just agree to disagree on that issue.
There are soooo many things wrong with those assumptions and your statement but this isn't the time or place for my rebuttal.


(I'll gladly pm you later on your other question )


sprague, i suppose when bluenoser said over-exaggeration i think he was referring to team given a boost for each fight win when i don't think should be the case. But i do agree with you on your latter post.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:45 PM   #16
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I didn't say fighting isn't part of hockey. I did say that I enjoy a good fight just as much as the next guy.
No, that's exactly what you're saying when you call it "hackey" and say focus more on the "actual hockey part of the game". In fact, i take offence to you calling it hackey and implying it's only in the game for the sake of entertainment. I keep reading that in the media as well and i don't buy it for a second - i just think that those guys have never played real competitive hockey...they're just watching it from high up on their pedistals.


But at the other end of things, giving a boost for the entire team winning a fight each time wouldn't be realistic.

When one of your players goes and there and fights or lays out a big hit it does send a messege to your team and could motivate some of your players...the question is which ones? Would it boost their morale (if that's in the game) A good speech from the Head Coach could potentially boost morale too. How will that be working in the game as the effects of that could sometimes be similar to a fight win for some players. The realisation is that some are motivated by a big hit, a fight, a pre game speech, a power play and a goal....all things that can change momentum in one teams favor.

This is quite a difficult aspect to get right and i'd like to hear how certain players are impacted by momentum swings in games.
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Old 02-23-2012, 05:54 AM   #17
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wondering if one of the game creators could make a short comment on how they are planning to look at this topic within the game

then none of us are speculating about what you may or may not be planning
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:02 AM   #18
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I've been a hockey (and NHL) fan for 25+ years now. Love the game. Used to love it a lot more, back in the 80s and early 90s. But still love it today. The overall skill level from top to bottom on a roster today is amazing.

Fighting is a part of hockey, for sure. I can understand the spontaneous fights and the fights that break out to protect a teammate who isn't a fighter or who was roughed up unnecessarily by the opposition. But the so-called "staged" fights? That's crap, plain and simple. A staged fight has absolutely nothing to do with playing hockey. It's akin to two MMA fighters coming into the ring and before they fight, they play badminton.

I've watched a lot of NHL games, and to be honest, most of the fighting today is border-line staged material. It's just two "tough" guys yapping and then thinking they need to stand up to one another so they personally don't appear weak or scared. Most of it nowadays has nothing to do with standing up for teammates or trying to swing momentum. That still happens, sure, but most fights happen today for fighting's sake.

I'm an advocate for getting rid of fighting. That being said, the NHL does a horrible job on the ice of actually officiating a game. If you brought the hammer down on players for certain cheap shots and stick work, it would go away, and the game would be smoother and cleaner for it. Look at the broken stick rule. Any player will immediately drop his stick the moment it breaks to keep from getting penalized. So it can be done. Players can adapt and learn.

I don't think the NHL will ever seriously enforce the rules and break the culture as it is now, though. They cherish this "tough" image, players with missing teeth, shoving and acting tough after a whistle, all the while waiting for the officials to slowly move you away when you have no real intention of doing anything. That stuff is, frankly, frustrating and takes away from the game.

The NHL should start penalizing players for scrumming around after whistles just so they can look like they're tough and brave in front of 18,000 people. That being said, players should quit acting like children when they take a check and get all pissed off like someone has to get paid back. HITTING IS PART OF THE GAME. Take the hit. Deliver clean hits. That is HOCKEY.

The argument is that skilled players would get destroyed if there was no fighting. Not if the rules were actually enforced. Starting imposing actual fines and penalties for stick work. Players can control their sticks. Fighting exists basically because the league doesn't stand up and protect the players, so they do it themselves. And again, don't see it happening with the culture as it is now in the NHL.

All of that being said - fighting and physicality can't be ignored in a hockey sim. It was -- and is -- part of the game. IMHO, fighting today doesn't have the same affect it did 20-30 years ago, because players who fight act more like MMA fighters and fight for reasons other than the traditional ones.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:25 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sprague View Post
As for the Russian Klm league- the biggest hockey brawls worldwide the last 3 years have all been in the russian league- take a browse on youtube if you don't believe me.
Yes, but those are specific isolated incidents that occurred for specific reasons. Fighting is not the norm in Russian hockey. Fights do occur, but they are an exception. For instance I am a supporter, ultra, fan movement guy, what ever you want to call me for a team here in Russia. I attend all home and most away matches for my team. In the past 2 seasons I can probably count on only 2 hands the number of fights I have seen. Fighting in the KHL is done mostly by guys that have done time in North America. Don't get me wrong, we still have 'toughguys' but their protection doesn't usually escalate to fighting. Becasue of the lower incidents of fighting the referees sometimes let things get rough, but as soon as tensions start to really flare up, penalties are called tighter until things calm down.

Russian hockey is about speed, passing, and teamwork, watch actual KHL matches and not just attention grabbing youtube brawls without knowing the full context if you don't believe me.
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Old 02-23-2012, 06:22 PM   #20
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still curious to hear what the game creators have to say about their set up

again this was not meant to be a topic post about views per sey, just that it should be a part of a hockey sim (which can be turned on or off as desired by the gamer) and was more wondering how exacly this game was going to tackle this issue

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