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Franchise Hockey Manager 4 - General Discussion Talk about the latest FHM, officially licensed by the NHL!

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Old 10-29-2017, 03:16 PM   #1
micpringle
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Unhappy AI Creating Lines Still Broken

I've had issues with this since the original release of FHM4, and it still appears to be broken in 4.3.49.

Playing as the Penguins with the default roster and asking the AI to set the lines, it puts Sheary (2.5) on the 4th, behind both Hagelin (1.5) and Kühnhackl (1.5).

For the defensemen, it puts Dumoulin (2.0) ahead of Cole (2.5).

If I ask the AI to Setup Organization, it drops Dumoulin altogether and promotes Tinordi—rated 1.5 ability, 1.5 potential—from Wilkes-Barre and dresses him instead.

Something else I've noticed is that despite playing the exact same tactics in FHM4 as I did in FHM3, quite a few of the roles have changes...

FHM3
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FHM4
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Which puts me at somewhat of a loss since I thought I was starting to understand things re: the tactic(s) in FHM3 and now FHM4 appears to either make some significant changes, or simply choose the wrong roles.

As a side-note, whoever thought it was a good idea to change the font in FHM4 needs a good clip around the earhole–it looks terrible when viewed side-by-side. Oh, and on that note, I spotted an issue with it...

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It's incredibly frustrating because until these issues with the AI are resolved, I don't feel I can invest the time in a long-term save with FHM4.

Last edited by micpringle; 10-29-2017 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 10-29-2017, 09:38 PM   #2
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The AI chooses the player(s) who'll produce the best results in the type of roles required for a tactic. One player having a star rating higher than another isn't a guarantee that he'll be placed on a higher line.
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Old 10-30-2017, 01:58 AM   #3
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Perhaps you could elaborate a little more Jeff?

If I drag Sheary on to the 2nd as an Up and Down Winger, he also rates as 4/5, the same as Hagelin. Looking at the attributes Sheary is stronger pretty much across the board, so what is it the AI is seeing that I’m not?

Also, why did the AI choose to promote Tinordi from the AHL and dress him over Dumoulin, when the later has played 70+ games per season for the last two for the Penguins, and the former had only 50+ games in the NHL for his entire career? Again, Dumoulin gets the same rating for the same role, and has better attributes. What am I missing?
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Old 10-30-2017, 02:07 AM   #4
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I appreciate there’s some differences between RL and the game, but IRL both Sheary and Dumoulin have been playing on the first line. Given they both get high ratings in the roles the AI chooses for the slots on those lines I just can’t get my head around this—it’s not even as though I’m using some unusual, left field tactic with Stretching the D either.

Last edited by micpringle; 10-30-2017 at 02:16 AM.
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Old 10-30-2017, 02:23 AM   #5
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Hagelin is extremely fast and good defensively. He'll score higher than Sheary in that role, even if they're both displayed as 4/5 - that's after rounding, but the raw score is higher for Hagelin. Tinordi and Dumoulin are likely a similar situation; the AI most likely wants a physical role filled and Tinordi's better for that. In this case, though, Dumoulin looks underrated and Tinordi overrated, so that probably merits some ratings changes to both that will prevent that from happening.
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Old 10-30-2017, 04:27 AM   #6
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If they're both rated 4/5 then the differences must be marginal?

Does the AI not take any commercial aspect into account? If a 1st line player is suddenly demoted to the 4th based on a marginal difference, surely that'd have a commercial impact?

Has there been some role changes between releases? In FHM3 the 2nd line LW was a Sniper when using Stretching the D, but in FHM4 the 2nd line LW is an Up and Down Winger and I assume that's the role that places a higher weight on defensive attributes, leading us to this situation?

Are there any plans to make some of this a bit more transparent? It'd be great if I could see a players most suitable role(s), and what attributes are favoured for what roles. This would allow for more informed decisions, more so than the current "black box" approach.
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Old 10-30-2017, 12:33 PM   #7
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Jeff,

Will you and Adam please do a Video Tutorial series which only focuses on setting the Lines, Roles, Countering Roles and Tactics? Please make this a separate video(s) than your weekly broadcasts.

This area of the game really needs further, and in-depth explanation for your customers, many of which are new to Hockey. As folks on the Forum have noted, this is a frustrating and hard to understand area of the game.

Thank you.

Last edited by Chomps; 10-30-2017 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 10-30-2017, 03:03 PM   #8
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I realised after posting the above that Hornqvist was injured, so I used Commissioner Mode to remove the injury and then dressed him—things get even more bizarre with a full strength roster...

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Malkin as a LW on the 1st line. Guentzel demoted to the 3rd line splitting Hagelin and Sheary, who is still stuck on the 4th. And Wilson as a Centre on the 4th. It's all very

And returning to the conversation from earlier, here are the Hagelin's and Sheary's attributes as per my save...

Hagelin
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Sheary
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You mentioned Hagelin is "extremely fast and good defensively" but according to these he's only 1 point better in overall Speed, but has much less Balance and Stamina than Sheary. With regards his defensive attributes he is only notably better than Sheary in Checking and Defensive Read. Hagelin is also a much worse player both mentally and offensively.

And this is where it gets confusing. When compared overall Sheary is a much better player—especially considering both score 4/5 for the Up and Down Winger role—and definitely belongs on a line higher than the 4th, but it appears that the AI has somewhat tunnel vision when it selects players and focuses on just a handful of attributes.
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Old 10-30-2017, 08:02 PM   #9
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Generally what I do when it comes to role tactics is let the Assistant choose them, then look for as many counter roles in the Primary roles. I haven't noticed anything too dreadful as far as lines go, though a "Best Lines" feature in the future would be nice.
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Old 11-01-2017, 01:19 AM   #10
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Any thoughts on the above Jeff?
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Old 11-01-2017, 03:00 AM   #11
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We're looking at adding more feedback about which roles players are most suited to, and the the relative suitability of different tactics for each team. And yes, there have been changes to the roles and tactics between releases. But there are limits, I'm afraid, to how much I'm willing to detail the exact mechanics of internal systems like AI, other than to say that if there appear to be logical problems with them, I'll look at ways of rectifying those issues.
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Old 11-01-2017, 04:07 AM   #12
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It's great to hear that role feedback is something that's being considered. Even something as simple as a dropdown on the player attributes screen that listed all the applicable roles, and when selecting a role highlighted the key attributes for that role would be great. This is similar to what games such as Football Manager provide (albeit watered down some) and it really helps players make more informed decisions.

With regards your last comment, I don't think I'm asking you to "detail the exact mechanics of internal systems like AI" but more just provide a mechanism and/or some clarity that allows players to understand some of the more questionable decisions the AI makes. It's not about revealing the recipe to your secret sauce, just about striking a balance so the game is enjoyable for all.

AFAIK asking the AI to set the lines is a player aid and isn't an integral part of the game, although I do appreciate the choices made feed directly into the match engine, which is. If a player has the time and motivation to set their own lines then they're able to do just that, but if they don't, or lack the knowledge to do so effectively then they can call on the AI for assistance. But as things stand the AI, in this particular context, is somewhat of a blackbox, and we as players are being asked to trust the choices the AI makes despite if they appear, on the surface at least, as questionable, because there are no mechanisms provided in-game to help a player validate those choices.

Up until now, the only real choice I've had when the AI wants to play Malkin as an LW, or demote Sheary to the 4th line is to come on here and ask you, and that should be a last resort, not the only one.

Last edited by micpringle; 11-01-2017 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 11-01-2017, 06:23 PM   #13
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This post is an interesting read. I have been wondering why AI pick best lines has been scratching Morgan Reilly, in favour of either Andrew Neilson or Rinat Valiev from the Marlies. Unless Reilly is injured, he would never miss an NHL game, but I see now that it is because of the roles that my defensive strategy has set. I will definitely look at understanding the players roles much better now.
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