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Old 02-10-2019, 10:20 AM   #41
Curve Ball Dave
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Originally Posted by actionjackson View Post
By the way, despite my stance on pitchers being terrible hitters, so let's use the DH, my stance on the kill the shift nonsense is... The reason is simple. Hitters constantly work on hitting, so if they can't figure out how to go the other way when they're getting shifted constantly, they're getting what they deserve. I absolutely despise the one dimensional lunkheads who stubbornly try to hit through the shift rather than taking the sometimes entire half of the field that is being freely given to them.

Amen


In addition, I was watching MLB Network and it was pointed out how difficult it is to hit a 95 mph+ fastball that's up in the zone if your focus is on launch angle, which is an uppercut by any other name. Hence, more strike outs. I say rather than try to elevate a pitch that you can't with your uppercut swing as you try to hit a home run, shorten and level your swing and hit the ball back where it came from. Better a line drive single than yet another strike out. Go watch some video of George Brett rather than obsess over "metrics", he murdered high fastballs.
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Old 02-10-2019, 11:06 AM   #42
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A three-batter minimum for pitchers
I'm not really a fan of this because it seems like it would create more problems that it would solve. I feel that tv viewers would have less of a pace issue if we just showed the pitcher warming up instead of cutting to commercial. If you really still want that ad time, have the broadcasters read their in-game ads during this time period after or before introducing the new pitcher. If this is introduced, I expect we may see more intentional or "unintentional" intentional walks to get around this limit. At least one possible benefit would be seeing the batter actually get pitched to instead of getting four fingers and trotting to first.



A universal designated hitter
I'm a fan of NL ball, it's what I'm used to, so I'm going to say no here. However, I could be swayed by a starter only DH (if you want to keep the importance of the starter and kill the opener strategy). Overall though, I like the difference between the two leagues and it gives me some interest in interleague play. I still feel that pitchers should still focus on hitting and not just throwing and maybe with the increase in two-way players I'll get my wish eventually.



A single trade deadline before the All-Star break
I don't really see the benefit here besides jamming up the market more with teams that are completely unsure of where they stand. I doubt this will create more buyers because teams aren't going to go for it just for an outside chance of making the wildcard unless you've for sure got the money to absorb the loss if you take a big contract slugger to get you a few extra runs. The waiver trades aren't really an issue either so to me this makes a bit of a deal about nothing.



A 20-second pitch clock
I vote no because this could already be solved if we just enforced the rules that are already in the books about batters stepping out. I seem to recall pitchers having some sort of sensible limit too as judged by the umpires but I might be wrong here.



The expansion of rosters to 26 men, with a 12-pitcher maximum
What defines a pitcher though? I feel if the two-way player trend continues into the future this will be awfully hard to enforce when you have multiple guys who can play in the field and on the mound. I'd be for expanding the roster to 26, but not for the pitcher limit. While we're at it, let's keep the September 40 man expansion. I highly doubt the casual fan will be watching in September when the postseason races are already decided and for the teams that are out of it this period gives fans a glimpse of what is to come, some hope if you will.

Alternatively, as Matt suggested, I could be a fan of the taxi squad system so long as every player on the squad must make one appearance every seven days or something to make the roster actually useful, even if all of them can't appear in a single game. Somewhat like hockey and the daily scratches. Perhaps we'll see a return of the reserve system?


Draft advantages for winning teams and penalties for losing teams
Absolutely not. Draft position should be linked solely to how you finish in the standings and nothing else. Can you imagine how this would have affected the Pirates during their 20 year losing streak? I doubt we would still have a team. I feel this would benefit big market teams too much to be effective.



A study to lower the mound
Sure, why not. It's just a study and maybe something good could come of it. I feel still the the issue is on the batters and their approach but if it helps, it helps.



Because I've seen it mentioned on other websites, I'm going to vote extremely no to any sort of extra inning runner experiment. I already want it gone in the minors and quite frankly if it comes to the majors I'm either not watching period or abandoning the game past nine innings. IMO, either have a tie after twelve or suspend the game and make it up another day if the late nights are an issue.
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Old 02-10-2019, 11:53 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
1. Pitchers would hit better if they were required to learn the skill. But if they aren't hitting on their way up through the minors, if they aren't taking batting practice & working on it as they develop, then what do you expect them to do once they make it to the major leagues? The argument "pitchers hit so bad, use a DH" argument makes as much sense as the "hitters can't go to the opposite field, eliminate the shift" whining. The leagues should be teaching players to be all around players. Not making it easier for them because they refuse to work on their weak points.
There's a reason that a really good pitcher in college or the minors, one who has a legitimate shot at making the majors, doesn't spend any time working on his hitting: Every minute spent on on trying to become a major league-quality hitter is a minute he doesn't spend on becoming a major league-quality pitcher.

When you’re in the minors and your goal is to become a major league pitcher, why would you waste any time on becoming a major league hitter, too? That time that you forfeit ignoring honing your pitching skills to beef up your hitting skills could be enough to keep you from even making the majors in the first place. Great, so you can hit .200, but at the expense of your pitching? See ya, and good luck in the regular job market.

And if a pitcher with designs on a major league career does get to the high minors, all of a sudden he’s expected to work on his hitting so he can become a major league-quality hitter? Not a chance. He’s still trying to make the majors in the first place, so ain’t no way he’s going to ignore what brung him to the dance for the chance to be better at still being among the worst hitters in the game anyway. He’s not going to make any choices that might derail his chances of making the bigs, like spending even nearly as much time taking hitting practice as position players do. If he has to go the plate in a high minors game at all, the pitcher will take his lumps, forget about it, and go back to working on his pitching.

And once he does get to the majors, his spot on the major league roster is anything but assured. A high percentage of pitchers, way into double digits percent, last less than one season in the majors as a career. The typical rookie pitcher knows this is a possibility for him, too, so do we really think he’s really going to spend any significant time becoming a hitter at the expense of maintaining his pitching edge? That might well cost him his career entirely.

And if the rookie pitcher comes up as a relief pitcher, even after spending his time in the minors as a starter, he’s never going to come up to bat in a game anyway. So why bother working on his hitting? Again, waste of time that could cost him his pitching edge, and his career.

And none of even contemplates the possibility of getting traded to an American League team or organization. Fat lot of good all your hitting practice at the expense of your pitching practice will do you then.

This is why pitchers spend nearly no time practicing hitting. It makes no sense for them to do it. All the pitchers we think are good hitters, like Zach Greinke (career OPS+ of 53), Yovani Gallardo (50 OPS+), Madison Bumgarner (49 OPS+) and the rest of them come by their batting talents naturally, not through hard work. And even though we regard them as good-hitting pitchers, they objectively still suck at hitting.

Pitchers don’t belong at the plate. Simple as that. This was figured out at least a half century ago.

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2. As I said before, in the long run, the DH has hurt baseball because a lot of youngsters don't want to become pitchers because they won't get to hit. I've read a number of stories of prospects in multiple sports not choosing baseball because they don't want to be a pitcher only. Some get drafted but decide to take a scholarship in another sport because the team that drafted them wants them to become a pitcher only.

Eliminate the DH and you'll get pitchers better with the bat, better athletes to choose from, and less beanball revenge.
Regarding the part in bold, this chart showing NL pitchers batting averages in the era of the DH says different.

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Old 02-10-2019, 02:17 PM   #44
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On days pitchers don't pitch, what are they doing that is taking up so much time that they can't practice with the bat?
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Old 02-10-2019, 03:20 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Curve Ball Dave View Post
Amen


In addition, I was watching MLB Network and it was pointed out how difficult it is to hit a 95 mph+ fastball that's up in the zone if your focus is on launch angle, which is an uppercut by any other name. Hence, more strike outs. I say rather than try to elevate a pitch that you can't with your uppercut swing as you try to hit a home run, shorten and level your swing and hit the ball back where it came from. Better a line drive single than yet another strike out. Go watch some video of George Brett rather than obsess over "metrics", he murdered high fastballs.
That's the real story of the pine tar game for me. It wasn't the too much pine tar on the bat kerfuffle BS. It was how the **** did he even get his bat on that Goose Gossage shoulder high fastball, let alone hit it out of the park? I mean seriously?...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbEHAsZxRYo
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Old 02-10-2019, 04:22 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
On days pitchers don't pitch, what are they doing that is taking up so much time that they can't practice with the bat?
I don't think you're acknowledging how difficult the art of pitching is. On days when they're not pitching, they are a) resting and recovering from pitching, which is extremely important because starting a game and throwing about 100 pitches is incredibly taxing b) getting physically prepared for their next start c) studying video of their upcoming opponent and going over any notes they have on the players on that team d) throwing at least one bullpen session (the Atlanta guys in the Maddux/Glavine/Smoltz era used to throw two under Leo Mazzone, but I think even this practice has gone by the wayside because it's thought to be too much work in between starts).

As noted by others above, every minute that is devoted to learning to hit/practicing hitting is a minute that is not devoted to learning the craft of pitching, which really is a lifelong pursuit, and has no shortcuts unless you want to have a really short career. Pitching is what pitchers get paid for. Nobody gives a damn whether they hit .050 (with a negative wRC+) or .200 (with a sub-100 wRC+), which is pretty much their upper limit, and pretty much always has been with extremely rare/freakish outlier exceptions. Do you honestly think one penny of their earnings comes from their ability to hit?

Think of the start this way. Batters at the maximum face probably 5 hitter/pitcher confrontations in a nine inning game. The average starting pitcher probably faces 24 or 25 or so, and not all of those confrontations are created equally. That's a helluva difference, and it takes it's toll. No matter how much you want them to/how much they practice hitting (which is completely disincentivized in the pay structure of the game, so why would they spend much time at it?), at the most they are going to be thoroughly below average, mediocre hitters, and most likely they will be abjectly horrible ones. It has always been this way, and always will be this way.

The "two-way player" wave really isn't that significant in the grand scheme of things because in reality there are so few legit two-way players, and those that are may still face a choice in the future (hell, even the great Babe Ruth did). We think there are more two-way players than there really are because we focus on them as they are so unique and special that they really stand out from the rest of the crowd. Their numbers are in reality infinitesimally small, and they inevitably get smaller when a choice is forced on them by the reality that if you are better at one than the other, it makes economic sense to fully devote your time to the one you excel at.
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Nothing short of everything
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I'll stay till the wisteria fades
And falls on L.A.
No matter how high or how rough
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Old 02-10-2019, 04:55 PM   #47
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Every pitcher? No. Some will never become good hitters. Just like some batters will always be liabilities in the field. But there is ZERO chance for them to improve if they are not given the tools to do so. Until there is some movement to be open to the possibility that a small percentage of pitchers could become handy with the bat, all you have are assumptions.




Of course there are going to be only a handful. How many athletes do we think are good enough to get drafted in multiple sports? Now narrow it down to those thought to be good enough at pitching. What I'm getting at is the DH is a filter that strains out more potential talent.

I mean, I can't be the only one who has friends who don't like to play baseball because there is "too much standing around". I literally haven't played in decades. Last time I did, I arrange for my congregation to meet @ the park for a softball game. Next thing I knew, all the guys left the field to go to the blacktop & play some pick up games. After they got their swings. I was left on the diamond w/women & children.

If we see it in the schoolyard as kids, if we see it even as people get older, logic says it would be a factor among real potential athletes. It thins the talent pool.



Then the stats are pointless. You've giving me a hammer when I'm trying to staple some papers.
Point #1 has been addressed by others, and by myself in my most recent post, so I'm not going to rehash it here.

WRT the other two points, to wit: 1) athletes choosing other sports because they're increasingly steered towards specializing in either pitching or hitting in baseball, and 2) AL pitchers somehow having more malice in their hearts than NL pitchers when they get into the highly competitive atmosphere that exists between the lines, I think the onus is on you to prove those points.

With #1, I've laid out that I believe that an athlete's choice of sport is largely based on a love of the sport and/or his relative standing in the sport (i.e. his relative remuneration potential in the two [or in extremely rare cases three] sports). It makes sense that an athlete would choose the sport that he will most likely earn the most money at, because that's a lot of what high level athletics is about. If they don't choose it for that reason, they will likely choose a sport because they love it. Rickey Henderson chose baseball partly because his mom was afraid he would get seriously hurt in football due to his enthusiasm for contact as both a running back and a linebacker. I think way, way, way behind these reasons is the fact that pitchers are turned off from baseball because they think they won't be able to hit.

With #2, it is my contention that pitchers are no less ferociously competitive in the NL than in the AL, and because of this equally competitive fire between leagues, NL pitchers are no less likely than AL pitchers to completely lose their minds in and get into beanball wars. The HBP frequency data has shown a monumental shift in the last 25 years from the first 21 years of the DH. HBP frequency levels are basically dead even in the two leagues. It's up to you to demonstrate that AL pitchers have more of a tendency to get into beanball wars given the complete reversal in the differences between leagues in this category. Good luck with that because I would think it's impossible to prove.
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It's still not enough
Nothing short of everything
Nothing short of everything's enough
No matter how wide or how tough
Nothing short of everything's enough

Yeah, I know, I know, I know
Now for Plan A
I'll stay till the wisteria fades
And falls on L.A.
No matter how high or how rough
Nothing short of everything's enough"

- RIP Gord Downie (The Tragically Hip) February 6th, 1964 - October 17th, 2017
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Old 02-10-2019, 06:19 PM   #48
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I don't think you're acknowledging how difficult the art of pitching is..........
If pitching were easy, everyone would do it. But you can't tell me in the 4 games in between starts, recovery, study, charting, game film etc that a session in the batting cage can't be fitted into that 96 hr period of time.You can't tell me in spring training they have zero time to work on their swing. You know that's bull.

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Point #1 has been addressed by others, and by myself in my most recent post, so I'm not going to rehash it here.
Addressed. But not proven. All assumptions.

Quote:
WRT the other two points, to wit: 1) athletes choosing other sports because they're increasingly steered towards specializing in either pitching or hitting in baseball, and 2) AL pitchers somehow having more malice in their hearts than NL pitchers when they get into the highly competitive atmosphere that exists between the lines, I think the onus is on you to prove those points.
Never maintained AL pitchers had malice in their hearts. It is human nature. The less consequences a person has to face, the more aggressive they become.

Quote:
With #1, I've laid out that I believe that an athlete's choice of sport is largely based on a love of the sport and/or his relative standing in the sport
OK, that is your belief. Am I not allowed to express my belief too? As long as we our expressing our beliefs, neither of us is wrong.

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Good luck with that because I would think it's impossible to prove.
You're right. It is impossible to prove. It is also impossible to disprove. I don't have to "prove" anything. If I was asked by MLB for my recommendations & to give reasons for them, then I would be required to prove my point. So until data is kept on such things, like Billy Joel said, "You may be wrong for all I know, but you may be right."
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Old 02-10-2019, 07:08 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
If pitching were easy, everyone would do it. But you can't tell me in the 4 games in between starts, recovery, study, charting, game film etc that a session in the batting cage can't be fitted into that 96 hr period of time.You can't tell me in spring training they have zero time to work on their swing. You know that's bull.

Addressed. But not proven. All assumptions.

Never maintained AL pitchers had malice in their hearts. It is human nature. The less consequences a person has to face, the more aggressive they become.

OK, that is your belief. Am I not allowed to express my belief too? As long as we our expressing our beliefs, neither of us is wrong.



You're right. It is impossible to prove. It is also impossible to disprove. I don't have to "prove" anything. If I was asked by MLB for my recommendations & to give reasons for them, then I would be required to prove my point. So until data is kept on such things, like Billy Joel said, "You may be wrong for all I know, but you may be right."
Ladies and gentlemen...It's official...We've reached a stalemate.

(Nice back and forth though )
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"Yeah, I know, I know, I know
It's still not enough
Nothing short of everything
Nothing short of everything's enough
No matter how wide or how tough
Nothing short of everything's enough

Yeah, I know, I know, I know
Now for Plan A
I'll stay till the wisteria fades
And falls on L.A.
No matter how high or how rough
Nothing short of everything's enough"

- RIP Gord Downie (The Tragically Hip) February 6th, 1964 - October 17th, 2017
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Old 02-10-2019, 08:14 PM   #50
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I think the NL starting pitcher DO practice some hitting/bunting but they still are terrible compared to the position players (they might be a hair better than their AL counterpart but not by much).

Bottom line though, no matter what we think, MLB and the players union will do what they think will create the most money them.
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Old 02-10-2019, 08:54 PM   #51
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A universal designated hitter
I'm a fan of NL ball, it's what I'm used to, so I'm going to say no here. However, I could be swayed by a starter only DH (if you want to keep the importance of the starter and kill the opener strategy). Overall though, I like the difference between the two leagues and it gives me some interest in interleague play. I still feel that pitchers should still focus on hitting and not just throwing and maybe with the increase in two-way players I'll get my wish eventually.



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Because I've seen it mentioned on other websites, I'm going to vote extremely no to any sort of extra inning runner experiment. I already want it gone in the minors and quite frankly if it comes to the majors I'm either not watching period or abandoning the game past nine innings. IMO, either have a tie after twelve or suspend the game and make it up another day if the late nights are an issue.
Hear, hear! I hate that too and that's exactly what I'd like to see. I don't need a winner. 12 innings is plenty and if they're tied after that then fine.

We really don't need any of these overtime gimmicks that other sports polute their games with.
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Old 02-11-2019, 07:54 AM   #52
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My $.02


Universal DH: Hate it. But it's inevitable and probably long past time so get on with it.

Pitch Clock: Hate it in the minors, hate it more in the majors. A clock in this game? Unthinkable. But, it's also unstoppable o get on with it already.

Limiting Mound Visits: No problem here. It's abused anyway. Throw the damn ball already. You're a pitcher so pitch. Hand signals have been good enough since the get go they should be ok now.

26 player roster: Sure why not?

Eliminating the shift: No. No, no no. Here we draw the line. If players want to eliminate the shift then learn how to hit against it.

Man on 2nd in Extras: Not just no... HELL NO! This game is supposed to be the last true meritocracy on Earth. Until the wildcard it was anyway. There is no way in hell any win from a run scored by a runner that was "placed" on second because people have become too lazy to even watch other people play a sport will ever be legitimate. This ruins this sport.
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:14 AM   #53
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Kill interleague play too, unless it's at the All-Star Break or postseason. But to do that, both leagues need to have an even number of teams in them again, of course. And it would help if there were an even number of divisions in both leagues, like we had prior to the 1990's, as well.

Fine, you don't want to put teams back in their proper locations in certain cases? Then let's even things up so we have both leagues the same size with an even number of teams per league. Either demote certain teams to the minors, merge teams together, or create multiple teams to see the suggested idea implemented. The only teams immune from potential consolidation or demotion should then perhaps be the non-expansion teams for a period of five years. After that time, every five years or so, the worst four teams, let's say, might be subject to consolidation or demotion, if they continue to stink, and possibly be replaced by the same number of minor league teams.

25-man rosters at all times until roster expansion time, 40 for balance of regular season, 30 for playoffs, with a maximum limit per roster of 40 percent for pitchers on said roster at ANY time, excluding only spring training time. That would surely cut down on the number of nonsensical pitching changes, for one thing, I think.

As I've said before, no need for a pitch clock rule if certain other rules already existing are better enforced, and/or more strictly enforced, as already stated. Cut down the needless delays, and the game will proceed quicker, no doubt.

No, no, non, nada, nyet, to any extra-inning gimmicks to put men on base at the start of a team's time at bat, for sure! No needless ties, ever, either! I don't care if the game would have to go 20 or more innings to be decided, and/or suspended at times, then resumed, but no needless ties ever, except maybe during spring training!

The best players in baseball history surely had to face the shift, and many probably defeated it periodically. So why eliminate it? Utter nonsense. If you can't mentally outfox your opposition, then you have a problem that clearly needs to be addressed, as I believe actionjackson said.

Regarding pitching rotations and routines, whether starting pitchers might pitch in a four-man or five-man rotation, certainly they don't necessarily have to concentrate solely on their pitching, I'm sure. I do believe that many do work on their hitting, or at least want to work on it. Granted, they might not necessarily hit as well as position players, but I think that's at least partly due to the fact that they probably don't get to hit as much as they might want or need to. And whether they pitch every four or five games/days or whatever, surely they do other things besides pitching or hitting, when they're working as baseball players, right?

Just some thoughts here on my birthday today, folks. Take them all as you will, please, then. CD out.

P.S. At least today, let's please try to avoid strong language in this thread here, okay? Thanks. CD out.
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:49 AM   #54
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If pitching were easy, everyone would do it. But you can't tell me in the 4 games in between starts, recovery, study, charting, game film etc that a session in the batting cage can't be fitted into that 96 hr period of time.You can't tell me in spring training they have zero time to work on their swing. You know that's bull.
I laid out a whole bunch of reasons why it makes no sense for pitchers to put serious work into their hitting. Would love your take on those points I made.

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Old 02-11-2019, 09:54 AM   #55
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I laid out a whole bunch of reasons why it makes no sense for pitchers to put serious work into their hitting. Would love your take on those points I made.
I already did with the question I posed directly after your post. I;m not saying a pitcher can't be highly focused on his pitching. He should be. But I don't see how one can claim there aren't enough hours in the week for him to spend time in the batting cage.
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:50 AM   #56
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I already did with the question I posed directly after your post. I;m not saying a pitcher can't be highly focused on his pitching. He should be. But I don't see how one can claim there aren't enough hours in the week for him to spend time in the batting cage.
Ah I think I would be in the majors if all it took was being able to hit the batting practice pitcher and or the jugs machine. Not the same in so many ways.
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Old 02-11-2019, 12:31 PM   #57
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There was a time when you almost never saw a reliever.

There was a time when a reliever came in, and stayed in for a while.

It's not that long of a "time honored" strategy.
I was watching a game on YouTube and Sparky Lyle was pitching relief for the Phillies and he pitched ball as soon as it was returned too him. He made the game a lot faster which no relief pitcher in today's MLB would ever do.

I also remember when the DH started in the AL back in 1973 you left the starting pitcher in the game no matter what the score until the later innings but by today's standards if you burp you get removed from the game.


Three inning relievers need to be redeveloped in the minors and the day's of Boone Logan pitching 20 innings a season and getting a full MLB salary would be in Ernie Harwell's words-Long Gone!!!!
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:24 PM   #58
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Ah I think I would be in the majors if all it took was being able to hit the batting practice pitcher and or the jugs machine. Not the same in so many ways.
If that was what I claimed it would have merited your mocking.

One thing I like about forums: You type your thoughts so there is no need for anyone to successfully misrepresent them. If someone does, it just shows they can't come up with a credible rebuttal.
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Old 02-11-2019, 03:24 PM   #59
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I already did with the question I posed directly after your post. I;m not saying a pitcher can't be highly focused on his pitching. He should be. But I don't see how one can claim there aren't enough hours in the week for him to spend time in the batting cage.
Well, no, you didn't provide any takes on the points I made. You replied to actionjackson's points. Our points are not exactly the same, even if we are on the same side, so your reply to him can't serve as a blanket response to me.

So, I will ask you, directly, specifically, straight up:

Do you really think it makes sense for a pitcher in the low minors to try to become a major-league quality hitter when he's not even assured of making the major leagues, or even of moving up to the next level at all, as a pitcher?

Or that a career-long relief pitcher should be spending any time in the batting cage when he would never come up to the plate in a game more than once or twice even in a long major league career?

Or that a pitcher in an American League farm system—who, again, is not assured of even making the major leagues in the first place—should spend time trying to become a major league-quality hitter when he might never spend a single moment on a National League club?

Or that a new rookie major league pitcher, whether starter or reliever, should set aside any time he might spend on doing everything he can to keep his sweet new major league job just so he can work on becoming a major-league quality hitter, especially when he is one bad outing from being banished from the majors, possibly forever?

In the final analysis, does it really make all the sense in the world that a professional baseball pitcher, whose entire career turns 100% on his pitching ability and exactly 0% on his hitting ability, should risk that career by taking time away from doing all he can to improve his pitching skills in order to keep his job as a professional baseball pitcher, and try to become a major league-quality hitter instead? To allow his skills in the most important part of his career to deteriorate even very slightly, just to improve his skills in a part of the game that has exactly zero impact on his career?

These are the points I'd love to get your take on.
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Old 02-11-2019, 05:17 PM   #60
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Well, no, you didn't provide any takes on the points I made. You replied to actionjackson's points. Our points are not exactly the same, even if we are on the same side, so your reply to him can't serve as a blanket response to me.
Again, my question goes to all the stuff you said. I don't feel like writing a whole bunch of words when the point can be made in a paragraph or even just a sentence. I'm not into reading a whole book & I'm not going to make anyone else read an essay from me. I don't know why you want a line by line rebuttal. But to amuse you.....once.....

Quote:
Do you really think it makes sense for a pitcher in the low minors to try to become a major-league quality hitter when he's not even assured of making the major leagues, or even of moving up to the next level at all, as a pitcher?
Yes. I don't see why you guys see this as an either/or proposition.

Quote:
Or that a career-long relief pitcher should be spending any time in the batting cage when he would never come up to the plate in a game more than once or twice even in a long major league career?
Of course not. If a franchise is bringing up a player to manthe bullpen, it'd be ridiculous. But is the DH taking at bats away from relievers? Or is the DH in there primarily for starters? DH or no DH, relief pitchers aren't bringing automatic outs into the game. That's a useless point you brought up.

Quote:
Or that a pitcher in an American League farm system—who, again, is not assured of even making the major leagues in the first place—should spend time trying to become a major league-quality hitter when he might never spend a single moment on a National League club?
Again, what would be the point if they are in a DH league? Read the context of the thread. I was referring to the proposal to make MLB either all DH or none and whether a pitchers are capable of being a positive as hitters. But if they are going to hit, if they are made to hit, then it would be smart to practice.

Quote:
Or that a new rookie major league pitcher, whether starter or reliever, should set aside any time he might spend on doing everything he can to keep his sweet new major league job just so he can work on becoming a major-league quality hitter, especially when he is one bad outing from being banished from the majors, possibly forever?

In the final analysis, does it really make all the sense in the world that a professional baseball pitcher, whose entire career turns 100% on his pitching ability and exactly 0% on his hitting ability, should risk that career by taking time away from doing all he can to improve his pitching skills in order to keep his job as a professional baseball pitcher, and try to become a major league-quality hitter instead? To allow his skills in the most important part of his career to deteriorate even very slightly, just to improve his skills in a part of the game that has exactly zero impact on his career?
If a pitcher is required to go to the plate, then his entire career does not 100% hinge on his arm. If he can hit as well, he becomes more valuable. Do you think Otani got a lot of hype for his pitching only? A player that can do more things on the field is worth more. So it makes a whole bunch of sense.


Don Newcombe hit .271 for his career. HOF pitcher Red Ruffing batted .269 over a 20yr career. Bumgarner in 2014-15 hit 9 HR's while posting a sub 3.00 ERA. Greinke hit .328 his first full season in the NL. Drysdale one year hit .300 w/7hr's. Fernando Valenzuela hit .250 his rookie season when he won the Cy Young. In a year he pitched 300 innings & won 25 games, Wes Ferrell was .347 7hr's & 32 RBI's. Last season, German Marquez hit .300 and had more K's than IP w/a 3.77 ERA in frikkin' Colorado. Were these pitchers distracted from trying to be competent at the plate?

No one, NO ONE, is going to convince me it is going to hurt pitchers to learn how to be better at the plate when they aren't being asked/helped to be better at the plate. As I said when I first responded to this thread: Short term pain for long term gain. I'm taking the long term view of the topic. Not just how it will affect 2019.
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