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Old 05-01-2018, 10:30 AM   #1
Cooleyvol
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Stat Compilers - Discussion on Dan LeBatard show today

The 'interns' on the show began to name baseball HOF who were 'stat compilers' and therefore should not be HOF.

I'm just going to list them and a short 'reasoning' given on the show.

Go.


Jeter - would not have been a HOF had he been a Pirate. Never was near the best SS in the league yet all those AS games. Yankee bias.

Aaron - never had the 'big' HR year. Steady 25-40 and just played forever.

Nolan Ryan - 326 wins in 26 season. Average 12 or so wins.

Ripken - streak was selfish. Padded stats with number of games played.


Tim Kurkjian came on and shot them all down.

I am not agreeing with them on any of this. Just looking for discussion of these, and possibly others you think might have been compilers.
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Old 05-01-2018, 10:54 AM   #2
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I agree with all 4 of those. Especially Jeter who's defense was also about as far from Hall of Fame caliber as you can get.
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:13 AM   #3
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Did the interns have their hats on backwards? Sound more like a Cowherd topic. Of course, if it was Cowherd the entire discussion would center around Biggio and Nolan Ryan.

Aaron had 3771 hits and hit .305 for his entire career.

Jeter had 3465 hits and .310 career average.

Ripken had 3184 hits, 603 doubles and 431 home runs.

I'm not a Nolan Ryan fan at all and wouldn't be surprised a bit if it came out he was roided up for the Texas portion of his career, but 324 wins and 5714 strikeouts makes it hard to keep him out.

The stats compilers argument is basically a way of penalizing guys for being fortunate enough to be healthy for the majority of their careers.

I guess Pete Rose didn't make their discussion due to his ineligibility status?
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:15 AM   #4
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Hank Aaron... not a Hall of Fame player? That's laughable. Nolan Ryan had seven no-hitters... he was obviously just an average pitcher... what a joke.

This LeBatard guy is just trolling for hits/views/retweets and whatever else turns on the media these days. Move along, nothing of worth to see here.
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:16 AM   #5
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No Rose.

Actually, Biggio was also discussed. They said that had his helmet been clean (dirty helmet signifies he was doing something), he would have never been a HOF.
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:17 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcin View Post
Hank Aaron... not a Hall of Fame player? That's laughable. Nolan Ryan had seven no-hitters... he was obviously just an average pitcher... what a joke.

This LeBatard guy is just trolling for hits/views/retweets and whatever else turns on the media these days. Move along, nothing of worth to see here.
Actually, Dan was in your camp. He didn't initiate this. It came straight from his tech guys who sit in the other room. He called Kurkjian to have him hand them their asses.
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:33 AM   #7
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[QUOTE=Cooleyvol;4319262]No Rose.

Actually, Biggio was also discussed. They said that had his helmet been clean (dirty helmet signifies he was doing something), he would have never been a HOF.[/QUOTE

In that case I want Willie Horton in the Hall.
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:40 AM   #8
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Will never be a fan of the "he was never even the best ___ in the league" argument either. I guess we have to pick one out of Snider, Mantle and Mays? Roberto Clemente eliminates Al Kaline?

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Old 05-01-2018, 01:02 PM   #9
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Soooooo.......longevity is a negative?
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Old 05-01-2018, 02:51 PM   #10
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There is a case for Jeter. Career OPS + of 115 and his peak was long but not really 'peak' in the sense of a monster season besides 1999 when we was MVP level (yet somehow only finished sixth in voting that year)
He had over a 5.0 WAR which is considered AS level for only six seasons.

You can use the positions argument and his position adjusted OPS + is much more favorable but he was a negative on defense for every year of his career except for four.
He was not as terrible as his detractors make him out to be on defense but he was a negative for most of his career and his winning of lots of undeserved GG's does not help his image for his detractors.

I could go either way on him


The Hank Aaron argument is just silly.
He was 55% better than the rest of the league on offense over a super long career.
Even using WAR and OPS+ he was never around league average on offense until 1975 at age 41.
Besides the whole HR thing he is 11th all time in doubles and early in his career in a offense stagnated league he was fast and collected a lot of triples.
He was also somewhat above average in the field in the early part of his career and despite playing until his early 40's never became so bad in the field that it really hurt his team.

He had 13 seasons with a WAR over 7 which is my own personal barometer for when a player is in the mix for MVP. That is very special.


Nolan Ryan I will not say much about. Years before on this forum I was on the side that he was overrated. He was above average when his entire career is taken into account. He had some outstanding seasons and many above average seasons but also a number of downright average or below average seasons even when he was in what would be considered his prime.
He racked up a lot of nice career marks but his walks given up diminished his overall value.
And 7 seasons of above a 5 WAR (considered to be AS level) backs that up.
He is actually very similar to Jeter career wise even though of course they were doing two very separate things.



Ripken Jr is one I personally did some research on a number of years ago.
I thought along the same lines as the radio show and its true to a limited extent.
But the best argument for Ripken despite his long career is peak value.
8 seasons above a 5 WAR but four seasons above a 7 and two seasons over a 10.
And he was great on defense. Spectacular early in his career and never a negative despite getting older and 'selfishly' playing through injury probably at many points in his career.




The one that I will add to this list is one that always seems to rile up the forum when I mention him.

Ichiro

Career OPS + of 107 and only above a 125 three times.
I believe at certain times I called him a quote 'glorified singles hitter' which is probably too harsh of language.
But if you look at his numbers....
18.6 % of his hits were of the EBH variety which when I looked a few years ago is one of the smallest % of any player outside the deadball era with over a 1000 hits.
And his defense while above average and great a few seasons is not spectacular despite some great career highlights.
Six seasons over a 5.0 WAR and two over a 7.


And with all of these players. Cobra alluded to something important. Longevity and good health are a skill and should be added to player value. The value of just being available in any sport makes a difference.

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Old 05-02-2018, 02:54 PM   #11
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You can't keep out the all-time HR and K leaders. "Stat compiling" can be a Hall-worthy feature of a player's career.

In an ideal Hall, which would be somewhat smaller, Jeter would not belong, but the standards were relaxed long ago and it would look unfair to keep him out now.
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Old 05-02-2018, 05:04 PM   #12
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Jeter is more deserving than Rabbit Maranville.
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Old 05-02-2018, 05:08 PM   #13
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I see no problem at all including players who played very well for a long time, but may not have been the very best at their position. If anything, I think most people probably consider those players more worthy of the Hall than players who were maybe the best of their time, but had a short career. For example, I think Bo Jackson was the greatest player I ever saw and I wouldn't mind seeing him in the Hall, but we most likely never will because to most he didn't play long enough.

I get that some people want a small Hall, but I like to think that the key point of the Hall is to showcase the history of baseball greatness and if your Hall is really that small, then you're only scratching the very surface of what baseball history has to offer.
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Old 05-02-2018, 05:44 PM   #14
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Quote:
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You can't keep out the all-time HR and K leaders. "Stat compiling" can be a Hall-worthy feature of a player's career.
They are keeping out the all-time HR leader...
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Old 05-02-2018, 05:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
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They are keeping out the all-time HR leader...
And the all-time hits leader.
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Old 05-03-2018, 01:24 AM   #16
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This is why WAR is such a good value stat.

As long as you are producing above average value and production, you are creating value.


You don't go into the Hall of Fame for hitting the 500th home run vs finishing at 499

It's the raw value, that things like WAR show off. Gehrig and McGriff both have 493 Home Runs, but Gehrig produced 116.3 fWAR vs McGriff's 56.9

Jeter was above replacement value through 2012, his 2013 and 2014 seasons didn't produce much value.

Jeter would have gone in if he had been a Pirate. It wouldn't have mattered, he still produced 72.8 fWAR from a shortstop, 6th most all time, right next to Luke Appling.

Aaron - remaining on the field is valuable, and I'd rather have a guy hit 35 Home Runs for me for 10 years, than a guy hit 50 Home Runs for me for 6.

Aaron played forever, and still finished with a 153 wRC+ - 22nd best of all time. That's a rate stat, and he's right next to Willie Mays and Joe DiMaggio. Yet, he played forever! That's insane.

Ryan - wins are meaningless - and while he is a bit over rated because of his walk rate and no hitters, he still struck out an insane number of guys, and of all the guys with 3K innings pitched, he had a career 2.97 FIP - 24th best of all time, ahead of guys like Drysdale and Seaver.

Ripken has 92.5 fWAR (third all time among shortstops - if you count A-Rod, otherwise he is second most)

These aren't guys playing like Ichiro, producing no value, but hanging around and collecting more empty singles. These were guys who compiled huge careers while playing well above replacement level for an insane amount of time.

Eddie Murray is the compiler I would probably first think of (without looking) that hung around a long time and barely reached the counting stats you want. His last productive season was 1990, and he retired after 1997. Over those 8 years, he only piled up 5.1 rWAR - but managed to get 125 of his 504 home runs and 903 of his 3255 career base hits.

If he retires after 1990, is he a hall of famer?
.294/.372/.494 - 379 HR - 2352 Hits - 140 OPS+ - 63.6 rWAR

I don't blame guys for sticking around, and Murry was very helpful to those 95 Indians. But if they are looking for compilers, it's not the four they named.

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Old 05-03-2018, 01:46 AM   #17
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And why is Ken Griffey Jr not considered a compiler?

One season over 2.0 rWAR after 2000 (his age 30 season).

from 02-10, he produced 5.7 rWAR - 170 of his 630 HR
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Old 05-03-2018, 10:37 AM   #18
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Why isn't Don Sutton on the top of this list? His career is pure longevity completely lacking in even a B+ season.
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Old 05-03-2018, 10:49 AM   #19
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Why isn't Don Sutton on the top of this list? His career is pure longevity completely lacking in even a B+ season.
I agree with the longevity part. But you don't think his 1972 season isn't worthy of at least a B+? 19-9, 2.08 ERA, league-leading 9 shutouts. And that's with the Dodgers switching to a 5-man rotation that year.
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Old 05-03-2018, 11:11 AM   #20
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I know all the arguments about the Hall of Fame are statistical and I'm all about that - JAWS, WAR, etc are great objective ways to compare players. But what is it really, a Hall of FAME. It should be a place for the most memorable players who helped shape the history of the game. All four of the players mentioned are legendary people who should be remembered for as long as people care about baseball.
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