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Old 06-23-2010, 11:04 PM   #1
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Question Question: Is it possible to remove divisions in a post-1969 historical league?

I know there's an edit league structure button on the functions page, but does that screw up the teams in the game going forward? As a baseball fan I'd love to see the removal of divisions and have only the top four teams make it to the playoffs instead of the current system which rewards teams in craptacular divisions (can you tell I'm a disgruntled Jays fan?). Since hell hasn't frozen over yet I guess the only way I can pursue this is in OOTP land. Would it be better to edit the Teams.csv file in the stats folder or do an in-game edit? Couldn't find anything in a search, so just had to ask. Thanks in advance for your answers.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:36 PM   #2
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The in-game edit should work; that's how I merged the AL and NL into a twenty team league with one division (top eight teams make the playoffs) for the 1962 season.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:58 PM   #3
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The in-game edit should work; that's how I merged the AL and NL into a twenty team league with one division (top eight teams make the playoffs) for the 1962 season.
1) Was your game historical or fictional? I ask because I just simmed up to and through 1969 with the 12 AL/NL teams in divisionless leagues and when the season was over things reverted back to status quo for the next season and checking history the standings read as if there had been 2 divisions all along.

2) Assuming it's a historical game, how did you set it up so that eight teams made the playoffs in 1962? Can you walk me through it or point me to manual stuff that explains how to do it? Thanks Curtis.
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Old 06-24-2010, 12:29 AM   #4
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Red face

*gulp* I didn't realize it was difficult when I did it, so I just did it….

This was an MLB historical. I started it in 10.3 and it broke in trying to convert it to 10.4, so I never got as far as 'what happened after the season ended'. I set it up using the League Creation Wizard, but upon the advice of friends (a LOT of people helped me with this) I didn't make any changes to the league structures until after the game was started — January 1, 1962.

I chose 1962 as my starting year, I imported full history, and I used a Gambo database for the players because it brought them in the year they made their first professional appearance, not their first major league appearance. This gave me many more players to work with and a real minor league system to manage. I disabled amateur draft and assigned first year players to their historical teams. Note that I also moved four franchises and renamed four, which may or may not have impacted my results.

In updating to 10.4 the link to the Gambo db was lost. I'm hoping to recreate the league in Version 11 after the final update (and the new Gambo/some other guy db) is released.

The playoff part should be dead easy. On January 1 of the year you want your league to start, go into the Game Setup>League Setup>Options>Playoff Options and check the box for Custom Playoffs. This will send you to a separate screen where you get to choose things like how many rounds of playoffs (three for your league or mine), how many games per round (I chose all as best-of-nine), which order the home and road games are played in (which also tells you how many travel days will be included), who plays who in the first round (1 vs 4/2 vs 3, or 1 vs 3/2 vs 4) and so on.

In your case, you want four teams from each league in, right? So you'd select for 'division leader and three wild cards' in each league.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
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Old 06-24-2010, 01:14 AM   #5
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Don't be sorry: You helped. I'll just have to reset it every year. I like the results I'm seeing. In 1970 the Cubs and Phillies won 103 and 102 respectively. Under the normal system the Phils are SOL and the 95 win Dodgers go to the dance: not in this setup. No sir, there's no reward for "mediocrity" here.
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Old 06-24-2010, 03:08 AM   #6
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I was able to do this by doing the following to the teams csv file. Open the file with notepad and uncheck wordwrap. Then remove all the E, W and C's in the file. In the current database that comes with the game they are the 5th item over in each line and has the word NULL for all other teams pre 1969. You can either go with NULL for each E, W or C or you can just leave it blank. Just DO NOT remove any of the commas. Now you will have to reset you playoff step up each year, but at least you won't have to redo your league structure.

As a side note for those that want to, you can move Cincinnati and Atlanta to the East and St. Louis and Chicago to the West for 1969 thru 1993 by reversing the E and W after each of these teams' for each year in the same file.

Hope this helps.
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:57 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by GoCanes View Post
I was able to do this by doing the following to the teams csv file. Open the file with notepad and uncheck wordwrap. Then remove all the E, W and C's in the file. In the current database that comes with the game they are the 5th item over in each line and has the word NULL for all other teams pre 1969. You can either go with NULL for each E, W or C or you can just leave it blank. Just DO NOT remove any of the commas. Now you will have to reset you playoff step up each year, but at least you won't have to redo your league structure.

As a side note for those that want to, you can move Cincinnati and Atlanta to the East and St. Louis and Chicago to the West for 1969 thru 1993 by reversing the E and W after each of these teams' for each year in the same file.

Hope this helps.
Thanks GoCanes. I had mentioned that option in the OP. Good to know that it works. I was concerned about it messing up expansion, but if you say it works I'll give it a shot. I'll probably use a spreadsheet to do it and then after saving it, replace any double quotes that pop up in Notepad with blank spaces, as the original Teams.csv file has no double quotes surrounding any entry, be it text or numeral. As for playoffs, I'll probably use a custom format and try to keep it so that somewhere between 25% and 33% of the teams make it, though sometimes it'll be a little below 25%. With no divisions, it'll always be best on best and that's what I'm shooting for...Just trying to avoid situations similar to the 1984 Royals and 1987 Twins getting in, and to the 1993 Giants not making the playoffs.

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Old 06-24-2010, 03:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by actionjackson View Post
I know there's an edit league structure button on the functions page, but does that screw up the teams in the game going forward? As a baseball fan I'd love to see the removal of divisions and have only the top four teams make it to the playoffs instead of the current system which rewards teams in craptacular divisions (can you tell I'm a disgruntled Jays fan?)
I'll just note that the divisions and schedule, as currently implemented by MLB, are perhaps not so desirable.

However, there is nothing wrong at all with the two 6-team divisions years. The schedule provided a good mix of divisional and interdivisional games: 90 games total in the division and 72 games out of the division; 18 games against each divisional rival and 12 against each interdivisional rival. Perfectly reasonable and well-balanced. The schedule, in addition, concluded each year with ten consecutive divisional series, meaning the teams involved in a divisional race would be playing only divisional rivals for the last month of the season.

Where things started to go wrong was when the AL adopted a balanced schedule in 1979, rendering the divisions arbitrary and meaningless. The NL followed suit in 1993, the the three division structure was started in 1994 while retaining a balanced schedule. Then interleague play came along, then two more expansion teams, and schedule symmetry pretty much became a relic of history.
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Old 06-24-2010, 04:03 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange View Post
I'll just note that the divisions and schedule, as currently implemented by MLB, are perhaps not so desirable.

However, there is nothing wrong at all with the two 6-team divisions years. The schedule provided a good mix of divisional and interdivisional games: 90 games total in the division and 72 games out of the division; 18 games against each divisional rival and 12 against each interdivisional rival. Perfectly reasonable and well-balanced. The schedule, in addition, concluded each year with ten consecutive divisional series, meaning the teams involved in a divisional race would be playing only divisional rivals for the last month of the season.

Where things started to go wrong was when the AL adopted a balanced schedule in 1979, rendering the divisions arbitrary and meaningless. The NL followed suit in 1993, the the three division structure was started in 1994 while retaining a balanced schedule. Then interleague play came along, then two more expansion teams, and schedule symmetry pretty much became a relic of history.
A valid opinion to be sure re: the 24 team years, however it still managed to create "unfair" (I say unfair knowing full well that every team knew the deal going in) playoff qualifiers and non-qualifiers as I noted in the 3 examples I gave above. What I like about no divisions is that everybody has (pretty much) the same schedule, while competing for the same prize: a spot in the playoffs. No set-up is 100% fair or flawless, but for me having no divisions in the league ensures that the top team, the top 2 teams, or the top 4 teams from each league get to the playoffs every single year. That's what I'm shooting for. ...Oh, and egads no interleague in this gamer's universe.

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Old 06-24-2010, 04:20 PM   #10
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A valid opinion to be sure re: the 24 team years, however it still managed to create "unfair" (I say unfair knowing full well that every team knew the deal going in) playoff qualifiers and non-qualifiers as I noted in the 3 examples I gave above.
Not quite, because you were comparing the results of a single-division league with how they would have stacked up had there been divisions. You can't really do that, because a division structure means a different set of numbers of games against opponents, which would possibly change the win totals.

I'll note too that one can still split into divisions and ensure only the best teams qualify... by having teams ONLY play games within their division. No interdivisional games.
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Old 06-24-2010, 04:40 PM   #11
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Not quite, because you were comparing the results of a single-division league with how they would have stacked up had there been divisions. You can't really do that, because a division structure means a different set of numbers of games against opponents, which would possibly change the win totals.

I'll note too that one can still split into divisions and ensure only the best teams qualify... by having teams ONLY play games within their division. No interdivisional games.
Nice rebuttal of my above examples.

No interdivisional games is a very interesting concept. Would save money and help the environment by cutting down on oil consumption at a time when everybody is talking a good game about it, but how are we really doing? That's a whole other topic though. No more crazy Northeast to Southwest flights and vice versa and the jet lag that comes with them. However as a Jays fan I would probably be apoplectic: Yankees, Rays and Red Sox for three quarters of the schedule. Yay! 4th place or worse every year. Woo-hoo! The fans would hate seeing the same 3 to 5 teams over and over again and I think interest in baseball would plummet.

I'll go with what I said later in that post: The guarantee that the best 1, 2, or 4 teams in each league would make it is what I'm looking for in my baseball universe. May not be truly historical, but I don't care. Besides as soon as the first pitch is thrown in anger in any league you start up it's no longer truly historical as the results will always deviate somewhat from what happened IRL.
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Old 06-24-2010, 04:54 PM   #12
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No interdivisional games is a very interesting concept. Would save money and help the environment by cutting down on oil consumption at a time when everybody is talking a good game about it, but how are we really doing? That's a whole other topic though. No more crazy Northeast to Southwest flights and vice versa and the jet lag that comes with them. However as a Jays fan I would probably be apoplectic: Yankees, Rays and Red Sox for three quarters of the schedule. Yay! 4th place or worse every year. Woo-hoo! The fans would hate seeing the same 3 to 5 teams over and over again and I think interest in baseball would plummet.
Well, if you're looking for a discussion of how to realign the current major leagues, that's a whole other matter.

Personally, I'd probably go with three 5-team divisions in each league, even though that means interleague play all season long. But it would at least mean a symmetric schedule and a nearly identical set of matchups for each team within a division (or, as the NFL terms it, the 'common opponents' format).

If you want more radical suggestions, you could opt for three 10-team divisions, with or without interdivisional play. Or five 6-team divisions, again with or without interdivisional play. If you added to clubs to get to 32 in total, then you could have four 8-team divisions. Or eight 4-team divisions.


In any event, I will add this little historical postscript: originally, when it was decided both leagues would expand in 1969, the AL had already elected to split into two 6-team divisions, playing a 156-game schedule. The NL, however, was intending to operate as a single 12-team division playing either a 165- or 162-game schedule. The prospect of such a structural difference between the two major leagues didn't please anyone, and after much debate and arguing the NL reluctantly agreed to also split into two 6-team divisions provided a 162-game schedule was retained, which was agreed to by the AL.
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Old 06-24-2010, 05:28 PM   #13
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Well, if you're looking for a discussion of how to realign the current major leagues, that's a whole other matter.

Personally, I'd probably go with three 5-team divisions in each league, even though that means interleague play all season long. But it would at least mean a symmetric schedule and a nearly identical set of matchups for each team within a division (or, as the NFL terms it, the 'common opponents' format).

If you want more radical suggestions, you could opt for three 10-team divisions, with or without interdivisional play. Or five 6-team divisions, again with or without interdivisional play. If you added to clubs to get to 32 in total, then you could have four 8-team divisions. Or eight 4-team divisions.


In any event, I will add this little historical postscript: originally, when it was decided both leagues would expand in 1969, the AL had already elected to split into two 6-team divisions, playing a 156-game schedule. The NL, however, was intending to operate as a single 12-team division playing either a 165- or 162-game schedule. The prospect of such a structural difference between the two major leagues didn't please anyone, and after much debate and arguing the NL reluctantly agreed to also split into two 6-team divisions provided a 162-game schedule was retained, which was agreed to by the AL.
And that everyone is why LGO is the man around these boards when it comes to baseball history and scheduling, roster rules etc. A veritable walking baseball encyclopedia...Now where's that "We're not worthy/You are the man" smilie when you need it? I could legally hot link it from a site that allows those sorts of things, but I don't want to upset the forum muckety mucks, so you'll just have to imagine it LGO.

Despite my hatred for interleague play, I would possibly be able to stomach it in a 15 by 15 team league scenario if it meant a balanced schedule, but then what's the point of divisions? There's always something isn't there? Oh well at least in OOTPland the rigours/cost of travel don't have to be weighed under a scenario in which there would be a lot more travel. "It's your game..."
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Old 06-24-2010, 05:40 PM   #14
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I was able to do this by doing the following to the teams csv file. Open the file with notepad and uncheck wordwrap. Then remove all the E, W and C's in the file. In the current database that comes with the game they are the 5th item over in each line and has the word NULL for all other teams pre 1969. You can either go with NULL for each E, W or C or you can just leave it blank. Just DO NOT remove any of the commas. Now you will have to reset you playoff step up each year, but at least you won't have to redo your league structure.

As a side note for those that want to, you can move Cincinnati and Atlanta to the East and St. Louis and Chicago to the West for 1969 thru 1993 by reversing the E and W after each of these teams' for each year in the same file.

Hope this helps.
I just set up a 1998 league like this with NULL instead of E, W, or C and it works like a charm. AL: no divisions, 14 team league; top 4 will make the playoffs, NL: no divisions, 16 team league; top 4 will make the playoffs and each round will be a best of 7. I'll have none of this best of 5 crap or even the best of 9 crap back in ye olde tyme base-ball: standardized right through history. If I could I'd add an extra thanks to your total. Since I can't, you'll have to settle for the smilie. Cheers.
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Old 06-24-2010, 05:48 PM   #15
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I just set up a 1998 league like this with NULL instead of E, W, or C and it works like a charm. AL: no divisions, 14 team league; top 4 will make the playoffs, NL: no divisions, 16 team league; top 4 will make the playoffs and each round will be a best of 7. I'll have none of this best of 5 crap or even the best of 9 crap back in ye olde tyme base-ball: standardized right through history. If I could I'd add an extra thanks to your total. Since I can't, you'll have to settle for the smilie. Cheers.
NP actionjackson. Glad I could help you!
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Old 06-24-2010, 07:39 PM   #16
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One question though -- why have multiple playoff teams at all without divisions? As I recall the development of the leagues, when there were no divisions, there was only the World Series to determine the better team between the two league winners. A second round was added -- the League Championship Series -- when the use of divisions required a means of determining who would appear in the World Series.

So, if there are no divisions, whom do they play before the World Series? Each other? What's the point, if they've been playing each other over and over all year long just fighting to get to this point?

I'm not trying to denigrate here, I'm honestly curious.
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:09 PM   #17
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One question though -- why have multiple playoff teams at all without divisions? As I recall the development of the leagues, when there were no divisions, there was only the World Series to determine the better team between the two league winners. A second round was added -- the League Championship Series -- when the use of divisions required a means of determining who would appear in the World Series.

So, if there are no divisions, whom do they play before the World Series? Each other? What's the point, if they've been playing each other over and over all year long just fighting to get to this point?

I'm not trying to denigrate here, I'm honestly curious.
I just do #1 vs #4 and #2 vs #3 in the modern setup. Yes they have fought all year long, but they've done so for the right to be one of the 4 out of 14/16 teams to go to the playoffs.

I remember one divisional universe where an entire division finished under .500 one year (I think the Yankees got in with like 78 wins or so). I don't like seeing that kind of team get rewarded with playoff dates and it's virtually impossible that any team under .500 would get in the way I'm choosing to do it now. Seeing that under .500 team in the playoffs started me heading in this direction and the results so far have been pretty cool in simulation: down to the wire for that final spot or two spots with a relatively balanced schedule. I think for a better balanced schedule you have to select a typical series length of 1 game, which just looks completely bizarre, but it might balance it even better than the 3 game typical series length, which results in teams playing 3 more games against some opponents. I might try that if I can get over the strangeness.

EDIT: Oh yeah the 1 game typical series length schedule is balanced alright...STRANGE, but balanced. It would be nice if the schedule generator could intersperse some 2 and 4 game series in amongst the more normal 3 game series to produce a more normal looking balanced schedule, but you know what?...That is very low on the priority list, so I doubt it'll get any attention.

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Old 06-25-2010, 03:14 AM   #18
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So, if there are no divisions, whom do they play before the World Series? Each other? What's the point, if they've been playing each other over and over all year long just fighting to get to this point?

I'm not trying to denigrate here, I'm honestly curious.
Perhaps for the same reason the Shaughnessy playoffs were introduced by the International League during the Depression: to keep fans interested. Four post-season slots means more clubs in the hunt meaning more fans taking an interest in their clubs thereby avoiding a late-season drop-off in attendance for those clubs who would otherwise be well out of contention, which means more profit for the club owners. And profit is ultimately what professional sports is about.
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Old 06-25-2010, 11:44 AM   #19
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However, there is nothing wrong at all with the two 6-team divisions years. The schedule provided a good mix of divisional and interdivisional games: 90 games total in the division and 72 games out of the division; 18 games against each divisional rival and 12 against each interdivisional rival. Perfectly reasonable and well-balanced.
Where do I find that schedule? I'd like to use it.
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Old 06-25-2010, 11:53 AM   #20
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Where do I find that schedule? I'd like to use it.
If you go to the schedule creation screen you can import a schedule from any season. Team City/Nicknames don't have to match, only the league format.

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