A switch/option to stop AI from putting players at positions they are not rated for

[david limbaugh]

I have asked for years for an option to keep the AI Managers from starting/playing players at positions they are not rated for when other players that are rated for that position is available.

Please put this in...

Example:

starting at 3B is 1B Jim A Devlin - he is 54 at 1B and a 34 at RF - not qualified to play 3B

The roster has Frank Norton, a 42 at 3B and Fred Waterman, a 46 C, a 59 3B, a 32 SS and 35 CF

Neither player is in the starting lineup

Please give me an option to keep this from happening....

[david limbaugh]

Originally Posted by david limbaugh

I have asked for years for an option to keep the AI Managers from starting/playing players at positions they are not rated for when other players that are rated for that position is available.

Please put this in...

Example:

starting at 3B is 1B Jim A Devlin - he is 54 at 1B and a 34 at RF - not qualified to play 3B

The roster has Frank Norton, a 42 at 3B and Fred Waterman, a 46 C, a 59 3B, a 32 SS and 35 CF

Neither player is in the starting lineup

Please give me an option to keep this from happening....

Just had a game where Devlin was put at 3B and had 4 (Four!) errors and Catcher Nat Hicks started at 1B (No rating for 1B) and had 6 (Six!) errors. Devlin should have started at 1B and one of the two 3B Men on the team should have started at Third...

[RchW]

Originally Posted by david limbaugh

starting at 3B is 1B Jim A Devlin - he is 54...

I'd be more concerned about him being 54.

Seriously; this is still an issue and it shouldn't be.

[RchW]

Dola: you have gotten me riled up again about OOTP and position issues. Just because of your posts I looked up some players in my fictional league and I'm very grumpy.

Meet Derek Gibson. NL batting champion playing 2B when he shouldn't. I actually had a series of posts in beta about OF playing 2B. It appears that things have not changed and OOTP just takes any player who may have the attributes that make them bad 2B and uses them in place of a better middle infielder.

Please note that Gibson was an outfielder in A and AA ball. He was promoted to AAA presumably because of his bat having never played 2B. Two seasons of bad defense did not cause the AI to reach the obvious conclusion that he was a pretty good LF.

We have to get better AI recognition of bad defense. Outfielders should not become infielders just because they can.

I'm not a happy camper.

[david limbaugh]

I think we have the same complaint but 2 different flavors.

I think your complaint is that the AI tries to make a player morph/adapt to a new position, like Addison Russell playing second for my Cubs or Arod moving to third for the Evil Empire.

My complaint since OOTP4 is the AI Manager making a depth chart and batting order putting players into positions they are not qualified for at all. And then that player making 3 to 4 errors a game playing a position he is not qualified for while players that are qualified for that position are sitting on the bench.

[david limbaugh]

Game says Levy Meryle is a 3B

His only position rating is RF - he played RF No problem except I wish game labeled him a RF instead of 3B.

Some examples from my league - 16 games in....

In 16 games, 2B Jack Burdock made 35 errors at 3B - in 82 Total Chances! a .573 Fielding Percentage. His ratings were: 51 at Second Base and 30 at Shortstop. NOT QUALIFIED TO PLAY 3B! Team had 2 players qualified at 3B and neither played a game at 3B.

Different team - this AI manager is brutal at making a lineup!

Catcher Nat Hicks, not qualified to play 1B, Only rating is at C, makes 20 errors in 7 games playing 1B, 20 errors in 73 chances at 1B! .726 fielding. Team has 2 players rated at 1B.... On that same team Jim Devlin, one of those 1B, qualified at 1B, played 6 games at 3B, and made 17 errors in 31 chances, a .474 pct. he is not qualified to play 3B. Roster has 2 players who are rated at 3B.... Same manager puts John Radcliff at SS - his ratings are a 34 at 3B and 40 at RF. But Manager puts him at SS over 2 other rated SS's. In 16 games he has 36 errors on 115 chances - a .687 pct.... Somehow this team is 6-10

[RchW]

Originally Posted by david limbaugh

I think we have the same complaint but 2 different flavors.

I think your complaint is that the AI tries to make a player morph/adapt to a new position, like Addison Russell playing second for my Cubs or Arod moving to third for the Evil Empire.

My complaint since OOTP4 is the AI Manager making a depth chart and batting order putting players into positions they are not qualified for at all. And then that player making 3 to 4 errors a game playing a position he is not qualified for while players that are qualified for that position are sitting on the bench.

Yes, absolutely! Yours is concerned quite correctly with specific in-game performance and mine is concerned more from a season to season POV and the fact that nobody that bad at second base would ever be used there for any reason when he was already a competent outfielder and a superior hitter. OOTP looks for a hitter who can play 2B. IRL they look for a 2B who can hit.

My impression is that OOTP does not generate enough average to above average defensive players. It may actually generate way too many good hit/bad defense players. In real life good hitters that can't play average defense may get shunted aside because just about everyone knows that defense will win many games.

To me this is a part of the game that needs a complete overhaul.


Edit: Sorry you asked for ratings. See below. This guy should never ever have been an option at 2B. That's why I suspect OOTP just doesn't create enough good defensive players.

[david limbaugh]

In baseball, from high school to pro ball, if you can hit, really hit, you will play. It may be DH. It may be 1B. It may be a corner outfield spot. Richie Zisk. Steve Balboni, etc...

In fictional leagues, I have a hunch you are right, the game doesn't make enough 'fake' Buddy Harrelsons or Felix Millans or Larry Bowas or Mark Belangers....

I play historically. I don't mind it when Johnny Bench goes from C to 1B or Tony Perez goes from 3B to 1B or Joe Mauer goes from C to 1B as long as it happens when/after it happened in real life....

Another example just popped up for me.

Beginning 1876 season. A team's opening day lineup from AI Manager

Starting a Catcher, John Farrow, at 2B and hitting in the 8 hole.

John Farrow's Defensive Ratings: C - 44, Centerfield - 5, Right Field - 37

No 2B Rating.

two 2b's on the roster, Dick Hunt rated 33 at 2B and Charlie Sweasey ranked 42 at 2B.

Is it because Farrow is a far superior hitter? No..

Contact: Farrow 29/29 ; Dick Hunt 28/28 ; Charlie Sweasey 28/28

Gap Power??? Home Run Power? Farrow 29/29 and 1/1

Hunt: 33/34 and 1/1 Sweasey: 20/20 and 1/1

So Why does the Manager put Farrow at 2B. Curious to see how many errors he makes playing a position he is not qualified to play....

Another team, opening day:

Joe Gerhardt hitting 2nd in order and playing 3b. Problem? He is rated a 75 at 1B, a 49 at 2B and 29 at SS. Not qualified to play 3B.

Herman Dehlman starts at 1B. He is rated at 71 at 1B so good with that. Gerhardt at better hitter so why not just start him at 1B instead of 3B?

Roster has two 3B's, Al Nevin rated at 43 and George Fields rated at 48.

The more I look, the worse this problem gets - because these players, playing out of place, make 3 to 4 errors in a game....

[david limbaugh]

First game: SS John Radcliff starts at SS. Problem? His Defensive Ratings is 1B - 37, 3B - 38 and RF - 32 - not qualified for SS - and he makes 2 errors. Gerhardt, a 75 at 2B, starts at 3B instead, where he has no rating, and makes an error.

[david limbaugh]

6 games in, a team playing SS Jimmy Hallinan at SS. Problem, he is a 38 rated LF and a 36 rated RF - no rating for SS - in 6 games, he has 8 errors. 8 errors in 32 chances - .750 fielding PCT.

[david limbaugh]

Orater Shafer starts at 3B, makes 4 errors in 1 game. He is a 60 LFer, rated at 1B, LF and RF as well. But put at 3B. Team has two 3Bmen on team.

[bigmonk]

Originally Posted by RchW

My impression is that OOTP does not generate enough average to above average defensive players. It may actually generate way too many good hit/bad defense players. In real life good hitters that can't play average defense may get shunted aside because just about everyone knows that defense will win many games.

To me this is a part of the game that needs a complete overhaul.

The player generation system desperately needs an overhaul. I played through decades and the first year player draft would have a swarm of no defense, power hitting shortstops, a desperate few four or five star starting pitchers, bunches of third basemen who couldn't field, or bat for average and no good first basemen with work ethic or intelligence above
low. The talent of the players coming in the league should be random and evenly distributed. I can understand some adjust, like mobile fielders should have weak power and high power players should tend to be slower, but no necessarily bad fielders.
Is that fussy enough for Sunday morning?

[david limbaugh]

Originally Posted by bigmonk

The player generation system desperately needs an overhaul. I played through decades and the first year player draft would have a swarm of no defense, power hitting shortstops, a desperate few four or five star starting pitchers, bunches of third basemen who couldn't field, or bat for average and no good first basemen with work ethic or intelligence above
low. The talent of the players coming in the league should be random and evenly distributed. I can understand some adjust, like mobile fielders should have weak power and high power players should tend to be slower, but no necessarily bad fielders.
Is that fussy enough for Sunday morning?

Stay fussy!

That is the reason I stopped playing fictional years ago. Using real players with Lehman database at least gives me range of players...

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by bigmonk

The player generation system desperately needs an overhaul. I played through decades and the first year player draft would have a swarm of no defense, power hitting shortstops, a desperate few four or five star starting pitchers, bunches of third basemen who couldn't field, or bat for average and no good first basemen with work ethic or intelligence above
low. The talent of the players coming in the league should be random and evenly distributed. I can understand some adjust, like mobile fielders should have weak power and high power players should tend to be slower, but no necessarily bad fielders.
Is that fussy enough for Sunday morning?

I agree, stay fussy. You speak the truth.

[voxpoptart]

I would say the "nobody out of position" switch is a good option to have for the Major Leagues, and therefore a good suggestion. I would not consider it a good option to choose in the Minor Leagues, just because the Minor Leagues are where it's worth letting a player make terrible plays in order to learn a new position.

I will say -- and I'm absolutely not doubting the experiences of David or Rich -- that I pay super-close attention to my leagues, and I've seen nothing resembling what they report except in extreme "We've used too many pinch-hitters and have no one left to play shortstop in the 9th inning" cases. The only unrated player used regularly out of position in my league by any team, in three years, is Austin Howell, who delivers Gold Glove-quality defensive stats at third base even though his "Arm" rating is so low that OSA and my scout refuse to give him a rating there. So, y'know: not really unrated.

I don't know why my experience is different, and, like I say, I'm happy to have an optional fix available for a problem that I'm not seeing.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by voxpoptart

I would say the "nobody out of position" switch is a good option to have for the Major Leagues, and therefore a good suggestion. I would not consider it a good option to choose in the Minor Leagues, just because the Minor Leagues are where it's worth letting a player make terrible plays in order to learn a new position.

I will say -- and I'm absolutely not doubting the experiences of David or Rich -- that I pay super-close attention to my leagues, and I've seen nothing resembling what they report except in extreme "We've used too many pinch-hitters and have no one left to play shortstop in the 9th inning" cases. The only unrated player used regularly out of position in my league by any team, in three years, is Austin Howell, who delivers Gold Glove-quality defensive stats at third base even though his "Arm" rating is so low that OSA and my scout refuse to give him a rating there. So, y'know: not really unrated.

I don't know why my experience is different, and, like I say, I'm happy to have an optional fix available for a problem that I'm not seeing.

My issue is not about playing positions not rated for. It's more about forcing bats (often OF) into inappropriate position usage which causes good defensive players (often MI) to stop developing. This leaves the AI no choice but to populate rosters with poor defensive players.

The AI moves starting players to different positions on a platoon basis; something that just doesn't happen IRL. In OOTP you can see a 2B platoon where the partners also platoon in the OF. No such usage occurs IRL (Ben Zobrist doesn't count ). I'd challenge you to check your leagues infield GS by position. I think you may be shocked with what you see. See this post from another thread.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3793165

Originally Posted by RchW

This is completely unrealistic as most real life 2B play only 2B. In 2014 MLB the top 30 2B started 70% of all games at 2B. If you consider a backup then the top 60 2B started 87% of all games at 2B. That is not a lot of sharing. SS is even more exclusive; top 30 76% of all starts top 60 95% of all starts.

2014 Major League Baseball SecondBase | Baseball-Reference.com

In OOTP the start % for the top 30 SS and 2B is 57%. The lower half of each top 30 occasionally start in the OF and all other IF positions.

I still claim that OOTP overwhelmingly favors batting ratings when building rosters. The logic should favor defense much more, especially with the critical positions up the middle. Perhaps the problem is that defensive penalties for low ratings are not severe enough.

[voxpoptart]

Originally Posted by RchW

The AI moves starting players to different positions on a platoon basis; something that just doesn't happen IRL. In OOTP you can see a 2B platoon where the partners also platoon in the OF. No such usage occurs IRL (Ben Zobrist doesn't count ).

Oh, absolutely that happens a lot in OOTP. Then again, I do it too; I kind of like it.

That's what appeals to me about improvements, like the one that started this thread, that can be toggled off and on. I've made a lot of suggestions that amount to "Here's a way the game could be more realistic and interesting". So I can't argue here when RchW says "Ending this kind of platoon would be more realistic" -- but I'm off here thinking "Yes, but less interesting". (For my tastes.) It'd be great if each of us, in our own game, could have our way.

[david limbaugh]

After a lot of research, digging and talking with others on forum (that is what is great about that!) I think game is doing a great job of doing what I asked it to do. I have roles set to real stats, not AI Eval. Even though a player's profile may not have a position with a rating, IF he actually played that position that year the game may put him there, but I don't have a clue what value it uses to calculate his fielding ability? :-)

[david limbaugh]

After more checking, I am finding occurrences of players put in starting lineups and depth charts at positions they are not rated for, and DID NOT PLAY that Position THAT Season "in real life" while other players on the roster who are rated for those positions do not start...

So, I am back to my original request - an option to prohibit the AI from putting players in the starting lineup at positions they are not rated for...

[Markus Heinsohn]

Just FYI - I'd need league files to check this out.... but please wait until the next patch, which improves this area of the game. Anyway, often there is a logical explanation for the AI's behavior.