Grab bag o' suggestions

[thehef]

I would like to see the History section of OOTP modified to include the main Standings (& Leaders panel). This is where I always go when I want a high-level look at what’s going on in my league. In addition to the overall standings, I get individual statistical leaders in the most important categories, and playoff results (if applicable)… A great summation and all in an awesome (logos-included), colorful presentation. It would therefore be great if this panel were included in the History section.

And if it were included, it could also include links – as shown in green in the first image at the bottom of this post - to playoff boxscores and playoff statistics.

As to the path to get to that panel, it could be accessed via one of the proposed links shown on the second image at the bottom of this post... Also shown in the second image below is another proposed path to access playoff boxscores and playoff statistics.

In general, playoff boxscores and playoff stats – both year-by-year, career, and team – should be easy to save and access...

If would be great if all of the above could be incorporated into OOTP's History feature. However, if not and as an alternative, perhaps it could be incorporated into a tweaked-but-slimmed-down optional version of the Almanac. (I for one do not use the Almanac because it is a beast, and although it does include tons of customization, it doesn’t really give me anything I need that I can’t get either in the game’s History section or with manual workarounds. True, the Almanac is a way to retain playoff boxscores and playoff statistics, but only at the expense of saving massive amounts of other – unwanted by me – files/data.)

Other suggestions or areas needing tweaking, some of which have already been suggested by me or others:

• Complete Games need more visibility. They should be part of any stats listing that shows other common pitchings stats such as W-L, ERA, GS, IP, BB, K, etc... Sure, CG's are a near-meaningless stat in today's game, but they were a staple of the game for many years.
• In individual game play, where you see the offense's lineup/batting order & stats, it would be cool during the postseason if you could choose or toggle between regular-season & post-season stats. As far as I'm concerned, in the early stages of playoffs, players' playoff stats are often meaningless (.200 avg, 0 hr's, 1 rbi after one playoff game... so what?). I’d much rather see regular-season stats until playoff stats become meaningful; and at that point I’d still want to have the option to view regular-season stats on that game-play screen.
• Too few pitchers are brought up to the active roster by the AI after roster expansion. I will often see that the pitching staff has remained at 10 players or maybe gone up to 11 or 12, but the team has brought up 4 catchers (for a total of, say, six), yet 15 or more pitchers still exist on the reserver roster.
• While I would love to see a robust Stretch-Run Mode – as described as an example in September Mode – introduced, it would be nice to see - at a very minimum - the AI tweaked to be smart enough not to use the top two starting pitchers on the last two days of the season once the division or pennant has been clinched. It is, quite frankly, ridiculous to see that - for example - the Dodgers won the pennant by 15 games but started Claude Osteen and Joe Moeller in the first two games of the World Series because Koufax & Drysdale were tired.
• Champions History does not reflect previous names of the final round. For example, if your championship round is called Temple Cup from 1890 thru 1900, then you rename it to World Series in 1901 (and leave it that way), and you later go to look at your previous champions, you will find that your 1890 thru 1900 winners won the World Series, not the Temple Cup.
• I would like to see OOTP schedule playoff games more-realistically. True, we can edit playoff schedules to mirror reality (if we so choose). However, the game already knows, when simming historical, to stagger home field advantage year-by-year and to expand/reduce the World Series between 7 and 9 games, as in real life. So how about including some of the other historical evolution aspects of playoff scheduling (such as 2-3-2 vs. alternating sites vs. 2211-coin-toss, off days variations, staggered starts & off days for the LCS’)? All of this is doable now via editing the schedule, but it’d be cool if, for historical simming, the game already "knew" this.
• I previously suggested retrosheet-style stats display and nobody saluted, so maybe nobody liked the idea, but I thought I’d bring it up again because I’m self-centered that way ;-)
• Please fix the position bug for minor leagues.
• As mentioned here, it would be cool to Make transactions and lineups files editable.
• Finally, I know this is dreaming, but for historical simming OOTP already references a csv file (teams.csv) in order to change team cities & names, add expansion teams, etc., at the appropriate time. It would be cool if we could control our entire planned logo and ballpark image history by having the game reference a csv file that would include the year of the change and our path to logo & ballpark images. That way we don’t have to remember to update these things; once committed to a csv file, they would just happen.

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by thehef

• In individual game play, where you see the offense's lineup/batting order & stats, it would be cool during the postseason if you could choose or toggle between regular-season & post-season stats. As far as I'm concerned, in the early stages of playoffs, players' playoff stats are often meaningless (.200 avg, 0 hr's, 1 rbi after one playoff game... so what?). I’d much rather see regular-season stats until playoff stats become meaningful; and at that point I’d still want to have the option to view regular-season stats on that game-play screen.
• Too few pitchers are brought up to the active roster by the AI after roster expansion. I will often see that the pitching staff has remained at 10 players or maybe gone up to 11 or 12, but the team has brought up 4 catchers (for a total of, say, six), yet 15 or more pitchers still exist on the reserver roster.
• While I would love to see a robust Stretch-Run Mode – as described as an example in September Mode – introduced, it would be nice to see - at a very minimum - the AI tweaked to be smart enough not to use the top two starting pitchers on the last two days of the season once the division or pennant has been clinched. It is, quite frankly, ridiculous to see that - for example - the Dodgers won the pennant by 15 games but started Claude Osteen and Joe Moeller in the first two games of the World Series because Koufax & Drysdale were tired.
• Please fix the position bug for minor leagues

I quoted the suggestions that I like.

[thehef]

Simcrazy, I am surprised you didn't like the post-season scheduling suggestion, as that is certainly a deviation from reality ;-)

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by thehef

Simcrazy, I am surprised you didn't like the post-season scheduling suggestion, as that is certainly a deviation from reality ;-)

I don't play historical - I think they should get modern day rules right before going after that!

[thehef]

Perhaps, although the way OOTP schedules modern-day postseason is not close to reality... At any rate...

In addition to my suggestion for more-realistic, historically-accurate post-season scheduling, others have asked for increased customizationablenessivness in playoff matchups. To add to this, I'd like to see the ability to a schedule a best-of series for more than 9 games. Reason? Prior to 1900, there were several matchups of more than 9 games, at least one of which was 15 games. (Many of these were not best-of, but that's besides the point...)

Allowing customized playoffs up to 15 (or even 21) games would be cool and should be relatively easy to code, I would think.

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by thehef

Perhaps, although the way OOTP schedules modern-day postseason is not close to reality...

Can you please expand on this/explain?

[thehef]

Simcrazy wrote:
Can you please expand on this/explain?

As an example, let's say you just concluded your 1977 regular season on a Sunday. OOTP would schedule both of your LCS' rather simplisitically, in the 2-2-1 format, to begin on the following Tuesday, with another pair of games on Wednesday, an off day on Thursday, Games 3 on Friday, Games 4 on Saturday, another off day on Sunday, and Games 5 on Monday*... However, in reality, MLB's scheduling protocol at that time (from '77 to '84) was to have staggered starts on Tuesday & Wednesday as follows:

• NL starts on Tuesday (& has a mid-series off day) in odd years; starts on Wednesday (no off day) in even years
• AL starts on Tuesday (& has a mid-series off day) in even years; starts on Wednesday (no off day) in odd years
• 2-3 format

Again, this is nothing that we can't overcome by editing the schedule, but it would be cool if the game knew what the protocol was, like it does for World Series length, for example.

* NOTE: I could be slightly off with regards to exactly how OOTP schedules postseason games (OOTP not accessible at the moment), but that's the gist of it.

[simcrazy]

I thought you said the modern (2011) was incorrect?

[thehef]

Oh, and I realize that the 1977 example above may not be considered modern-day by some. However, the same issues would exist for, say, the 2010 postseason, only they would be magnified by the addition of the Divisional Series' & seeding, which would make the example a little more complex & wordy, which is zactly why I chose 1977 for the example.

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by thehef

Oh, and I realize that the 1977 example above may not be considered modern-day by some. However, the same issues would exist for, say, the 2010 postseason, only they would be magnified by the addition of the Divisional Series' & seeding, which would make the example a little more complex & wordy, which is zactly why I chose 1977 for the example.

How is the 2010 or 2011 postseason incorrect?

[SandMan]

Don't Feed the Troll.....

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by thehef

I would like to see OOTP schedule playoff games more-realistically. True, we can edit playoff schedules to mirror reality (if we so choose). However, the game already knows, when simming historical, to stagger home field advantage year-by-year and to expand/reduce the World Series between 7 and 9 games, as in real life. So how about including some of the other historical evolution aspects of playoff scheduling (such as 2-3-2 vs. alternating sites vs. 2211-coin-toss, off days variations, staggered starts & off days for the LCS’)? All of this is doable now via editing the schedule, but it’d be cool if, for historical simming, the game already "knew" this.

For several years I have suggested that historical leagues in OOTP have historically authentic post-season schedules. I have almost all the data necessary for this to be implemented. Perhaps I'll make the case for it again this year...

Originally Posted by simcrazy

How is the 2010 or 2011 postseason incorrect?

I've never really looked at it closely at what OOTP does, but here's the actual MLB original post-season schedule for 2011:

Fri Sep 30  ALDS ALDS     -    -
Sat Oct  1  ALDS ALDS  NLDS NLDS
Sun Oct  2     -    -  NLDS NLDS
Mon Oct  3  ALDS ALDS     -    -
Tue Oct  4  ALDS ALDS  NLDS NLDS
Wed Oct  5     -    -  NLDS NLDS
Thu Oct  6  ALDS ALDS     -    -
Fri Oct  7    -   -    NLDS NLDS
Sat Oct  8    ALCS         -   -
Sun Oct  9    ALCS       NLCS
Mon Oct 10       -       NLCS
Tue Oct 11    ALCS         -
Wed Oct 12    ALCS       NLCS
Thu Oct 13    ALCS       NLCS
Fri Oct 14       -       NLCS
Sat Oct 15    ALCS          -
Sun Oct 16    ALCS       NLCS
Mon Oct 17       -       NLCS
Tue Oct 18       -          -
Wed Oct 19          WS
Thu Oct 20          WS
Fri Oct 21           -
Sat Oct 22          WS
Sun Oct 23          WS
Mon Oct 24          WS
Tue Oct 25           -
Wed Oct 26          WS
Thu Oct 27          WS

Whether that's what OOTP does I don't know. (I'd doubt it, because the post-season schedule was changed by MLB for 2011, and wasn't published until early August of that year, as far as I'm aware.)

Here's how the post-season schedules have been structured since 1996:

    [1996-2006]  [2007-2009]  [...2010..]      [...2011..]
Mon  -  -  -  -   -  -  -  -   -  -  -  -  Thu  -  -  -  -
Tue DS  - DS DS   -  -  -  -   -  -  -  -  Fri DS DS  -  -
Wed  - DS DS DS  DS  - DS DS  DS  - DS DS  Sat DS DS DS DS
Thu DS DS  -  -   - DS DS DS   - DS DS DS  Sun  -  - DS DS
Fri  -  - DS DS  DS DS  -  -  DS DS  -  -  Mon DS DS  -  -
Sat DS DS DS DS   -  - DS DS   -  - DS DS  Tue DS DS DS DS
Sun DS DS DS DS  DS DS DS DS  DS DS DS DS  Wed  -  - DS DS
Mon DS DS  -  -  DS DS  -  -  DS DS  -  -  Thu DS DS  -  -
Tue  -  -  LCS    -  - DS DS   -  - DS DS  Fri  -  - DS DS
Wed  LCS   LCS   DS DS  -  -  DS DS  -  -  Sat  LCS   -  -
Thu  LCS    -     -  -  LCS    -  -  -  -  Sun  LCS   LCS
Fri   -    LCS    LCS   LCS    -  -  LCS   Mon   -    LCS
Sat  LCS   LCS    LCS    -     LCS   LCS   Tue  LCS    -
Sun  LCS   LCS     -    LCS    LCS    -    Wed  LCS   LCS
Mon  LCS    -     LCS   LCS     -    LCS   Thu  LCS   LCS
Tue   -    LCS    LCS    -     LCS   LCS   Fri   -    LCS
Wed  LCS   LCS     -    LCS    LCS   LCS   Sat  LCS    -
Thu  LCS    -     LCS    -     LCS    -    Sun  LCS   LCS
Fri   -     -      -    LCS     -    LCS   Mon   -    LCS
Sat      WS       LCS   LCS    LCS   LCS   Tue   -     -
Sun      WS       LCS    -     LCS    -    Wed      WS
Mon       -        -     -      -     -    Thu      WS
Tue      WS        -     -      -     -    Fri       -
Wed      WS           WS           WS      Sat      WS
Thu      WS           WS           WS      Sun      WS
Fri       -            -            -      Mon      WS
Sat      WS           WS           WS      Tue       -
Sun      WS           WS           WS      Wed      WS
Mon       -           WS           WS      Thu      WS
Tue       -            -            -      Fri       -
Wed       -           WS           WS      Sat       -
Thu       -           WS           WS      Sun       -

There's a little more to it than that, but those are the basics.

[thehef]

Simcrazy wrote:

I thought you said the modern (2011) was incorrect?

I did. But I didn’t mean that only modern postseason scheduling was incorrect. OOTP postseason scheduling is pretty much incorrect regardless of year (or one’s definition of "modern")… And, as I noted above, the 1977 example was easier than a modern example.

　

LGO wrote:

For several years I have suggested that historical leagues in OOTP have historically authentic post-season schedules. I have almost all the data necessary for this to be implemented. Perhaps I'll make the case for it again this year...

Please do make that case!

I, too, have documented postseason scheduling rules, including home/away format/advantage, 1st & last game(s) locations, days off prior to the start of series’, and days off during series’. Not so much from the perspective of exactly what happened each year, but from the perspective of the rules that were in place at the time… My info is essentially complete for the World Series and League Championship Series, slightly less so for the Division Series… LGO, I would be interested in taking a peek at your data & would be happy to share mine…

As to why I approached it from the perspective of "rules in place" rather than documenting exactly what happened, that's because – for OOTP – you would want the rules – not what actually happened due to weather, geography, and quirks - to determine the schedule. This can be illustrated with two examples:

1. In the 1984 NLCS, due the apparent unavailability of Jack Murphy on Friday, 10/5/84, the series between the Cubs & Pads started a day earlier than originally planned, and included an off day in-between games 3 and 4 in San Diego. However, you likely wouldn’t want this abnormality built into your OOTP post-season scheduling rules because your 1984 playoffs may not even include San Diego, right? You would instead want OOTP to schedule the series as described in the 1977 example six posts above.
2. Many pre-1925 World Series’ alternated sites every game (rather than the 2-3-2 or 2-2-1-1 formats) and had no off days because the participants either came from the same city (and sometimes even shared the same park) or were in close proximity to one another. However, if the cities were not close, the 2-2-1-1 was typically the format and might include travel days... So, if your two OOTP 1922 finalists were from New York and Chicago, you wouldn't want OOTP to have them alternating sites and playing every day simply based on what happened in real life (the teams were both from New York). That would be completely unrealistic, next to unworkable (as even a non-stop train trip in 1922 would probably take 15 or so hours)... So, basically, the rule was "alternating days if cities close, else 2-2-1-1 / travel (off) days scheduled if needed due to geography (or Sunday baseball prohibitions," and you'd want something along those lines.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by thehef

I, too, have documented postseason scheduling rules, including home/away format/advantage, 1st & last game(s) locations, days off prior to the start of series’, and days off during series’. Not so much from the perspective of exactly what happened each year, but from the perspective of the rules that were in place at the time… My info is essentially complete for the World Series and League Championship Series, slightly less so for the Division Series… LGO, I would be interested in taking a peek at your data & would be happy to share mine…

When you say the rules in place at that time, just how detailed do you mean? Do you have anything specific, for example, on the rule which allowed the club with the best record in MLB to select whether to play in the one day longer Division Series or in the regular length Division Series?

My stuff includes the originally scheduled post-season series schedule going back as far as I could find, including the alternate schedules that were used in earlier years if different clubs had matched up in the World Series. I've got start times for the original post-season schedules too for most years.

Originally Posted by thehef

In the 1984 NLCS, due the apparent unavailability of Jack Murphy on Friday, 10/5/84, the series between the Cubs & Pads started a day earlier than originally planned, and included an off day in-between games 3 and 4 in San Diego.

That was the schedule for the NLCS as of August 31st, according to articles published in the Los Angeles Times and Chicago Tribune that day. (Of course, San Diego was 10½ games ahead on August 31.)

Note there would have been a small change in the LCS schedules had the Cubs won the NL East that year, due to the team not having lights in its park.

LCS schedules

              ALCS       NLCS

Tue oct 2  at West (D)  at East (N)
Wed Oct 3  at West (N)  at East (D)
Thu Oct 4  --           at West (N)
Fri Oct 5  at East (N)  --      
Sat Oct 6  at East (D)  at West (N)
Sun oct 7  at East (N)  at West (D)



LCS schedules if CHN wins NL East

              ALCS       NLCS

Tue oct 2  at West (N)  at East (D)
Wed Oct 3  at West (N)  at East (D)
Thu Oct 4  --           at West (N)
Fri Oct 5  at East (N)  --      
Sat Oct 6  at East (D)  at West (N)
Sun oct 7  at East (N)  at West (D)


(D) Day game
(N) Night game

If the Cubs had made it to the World Series, then there would have been a change to its schedule as well. The network television contracts specified night games for the WS during the week, and of course a lack of lights in Wrigley meant the games during the week, originally scheduled for the NL park, could not be played at night. So home field advantage in the WS would have been switched to the AL club.

            Original   Schedule if
            schedule   CHN makes WS

Tue Oct 9   at NL (N)  at AL (N)
Wed Oct 10  at NL (N)  at AL (N)
Thu Oct 11  --         --
Fri Oct 12  at AL (N)  at NL (D)
Sat Oct 13  at AL (D)  at NL (D)
Sun oct 14  at AL (D)  at NL (D)
Mon Oct 15  --         --
Tue Oct 16  at NL (N)  at AL (N)
Wed Oct 17  at NL (N)  at AL (N)

The question raised by the above is, had the Cubs made the World Series, would the AL have gotten home field advantage in the 1985 WS as originally scheduled, in spite of it also having it in 1984? Or would home field have simply alternated and in 1985 the NL club would have had it? I don't know the answer.

The question of adjusted LCS and WS schedules if the Cubs make the post-season would apply to each LCS from 1975-85 and each WS from 1971-87.

[thehef]

Le Grande Orange wrote: When you say the rules in place at that time, just how detailed do you mean?

Probably not as detailed as you, since it sounds like you have alternate schedules that account for what-if other scenarios had played out. I don’t much account for the exceptions and the quirks & stuff..

Le Grande Orange wrote: Do you have anything specific, for example, on the rule which allowed the club with the best record in MLB to select whether to play in the one day longer Division Series or in the regular length Division Series?

I’m still working on my LDS rules, but yes I do have note of that rule...

Le Grande Orange wrote: My stuff includes the originally scheduled post-season series schedule going back as far as I could find, including the alternate schedules that were used in earlier years if different clubs had matched up in the World Series. I've got start times for the original post-season schedules too for most years.

Yeah, I wasn’t trying to document year by year. Rather, I was looking to build the rules by which MLB was guided when setting up each World Series schedule (and, later, the League Championship Series’).

What I have is basically a guide that would help me craft a postseason schedule in OOTP for any year based upon the postseason-schedule-making rules in place at the time. Sounds like you have a pretty comprehensive documentation of actual schedules and alternate schedules, which account for exceptions & quirks & so forth. Although I have, from my research, info on many of those exceptions, etc., my aim wasn’t to document those…

Here’s what I have for what I would call "World Series Scheduling Rules":

WORLD SERIES 
Best-of
1903, 1919 thru 1921   9
1905-1918, 1922-       7
 
Home/Away Format
1903 (best of 9)       3-4-1 according to a teams-negotiated agreement
1905-1918, 1922-1924   alternating games or 2-2-1-1, depending upon geography
1919-1921 (best of 9)  3-4-1, 2-3-2-1, or alternating games, depending upon geography
1925-                  2-3-2
war years: 
1918                   alternating games if both teams from same city, else 3-4 (entire schedule determined by National Commission)
1943-1945              2-3-2 if no travel days required, else 3-4
 
Opening Game(s) Location
1905-1909              determined by National Commission (lot or discretion) 
1910-1917, 1919-1924   coin toss between owners of the two 1st-placed clinching teams
1925-1935              NL in odd years/AL in even years
1936-1994              NL in even years/AL in odd years (change in 1936 due to rule not followed in 1935)
1995-2002              NL in odd years/AL in even years (change in 1995 due to no World Series in 1994)
2003-                  awarded to team from league that wins the All-Star Game
war years:
1918                   determined by National Commission
 
Final Game Location
1905-1908              determined by National Commission (in practice, a coin flip called by league presidents or team managers)
1909-1917, 1922-1924   coin toss prior to game 6 (so teams know ahead of time if travel will be required between games 6 & 7)
1919-1921 (best of 9)  coin toss prior to game 8 (so teams know ahead of time if travel will be required between games 8 & 9)
1925-                  fixed site, based upon 2-3-2 format (last two games same as first two games)
war years:
1918                   3-4 format, entire schedule determined by National Commission
1943-1945              2-3-2 format dictates location of final two games unless 3-4 format required due to travel
 
Days Off Prior to Start of Series
1906-1920              typically one
1921-1968              typically two, ocassionally 1 or 3 (or none if NL playoff games needed)
1969-1976              varies, begins on Saturday following the conclusion of LCS'
1977-1984              varies, begins on Tuesday following the conclusion of LCS'
1985-2006              varies, begins on Saturday following the conclusion of LCS'
2007-                  varies, begins on Wednesday following the conclusion of LCS'
 
Off Days During Series
1905-1957              typically no days off unless needed for travel or due to Sunday baseball prohibitions
                       Eastern states' Sunday baseball prohibition lifted:
                        1918 - Washington, DC
                        1919 - New York
                        1929 - Massachusetts
                        1934 - Pennsylvania
                        (no Sunday baseball prohibition in other MLB states: Illinios, Michigan, Missouri, Ohio)
1958-                  travel days/off days scheduled after games 2 & 5, regardless of geography

Le Grande Orange wrote: The question raised by the above is, had the Cubs made the World Series, would the AL have gotten home field advantage in the 1985 WS as originally scheduled, in spite of it also having it in 1984? Or would home field have simply alternated and in 1985 the NL club would have had it? I don't know the answer.

Using history as a guide, I would think that that if the AL had been given home field advantage in the 1984 WS, then the NL would've been given it in 1985 and all subsequent odd years unless/until other circumstances dictated another change... Why does history suggest this? Well, (and I'm sure LGO knows this but others may not) the alternating home field advantage scheme began in 1925, with the NL getting it in odd years and the AL in even years. However, in 1935, Commissioner Landis gave home field advantage to the AL's Tigers - despite it being the NL's turn - due to the Cardinals' involvement in the NL pennant race and a large convention in St Louis... So the next year, in order to even things out, the NL received home field advantage, and the modified rule - NL in even years, AL in odd years - held until the 1994 strike wiped out the WS. Since the NL didn't get its home field advantage turn in 1994, it received it the following year (at which point NL in odd years, AL in even years became the rule once again - until Bud's All-Star game idea became the rule).

In both cases, effort was made to even out the advantage, so that's probably what would've happened in 1985... Given that it's the Cubbies, even if they hadn't gotten lights in 1988, it's a question that probably never would've needed to be answered, though ;-)

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by thehef

Probably not as detailed as you, since it sounds like you have alternate schedules that account for what-if other scenarios had played out. I don’t much account for the exceptions and the quirks & stuff.

Those are what are interesting.

Originally Posted by thehef

I’m still working on my LDS rules, but yes I do have note of that rule.

I think I've got the DS covered; I know, for instance, which divisions were assigned the home field advantage for the DS (as well as the LCS) during the 1994-97 period, and how that affected the match-ups.

Where I have some uncertainties are the LCS.

Specifically, from 1969-71 the schedule for the LCS had no travel days unless a west coast team was involved, in which case a travel day was added. This was true regardless of whether or not the LCS opened on the west coast or not. However, I'm not sure if this applied to the 1972-73 LCS. The original schedule I have for the ALCS in 1973 shows no travel day between the move from Baltimore to Oakland (the game was apparently postponed). If this is accurate, and based on the fact that the 1972 ALCS has an off day when moving from Oakland to Detroit, it suggests that the rule was changed to requiring an off day only when games moved from the west coast to the east. But the 1974 NLCS had an off day when games moved from the east coast to the west. (In 1975-76 it seems a travel day was added to both LCS without regard to the competing teams.)

Starting in 1977 the starts of the LCS were staggered, with the NLCS opening first in odd-numbered years, and the ALCS in even-numbered years. This held true over the next two years. But then in 1980 the NLCS again started first, even though by pattern it should have been the ALCS. I don't know why this was happened.

Then there's the 1984 NLCS, with its odd rotation of games. Given the fact the schedule had been set by August 31st, this suggests to me that perhaps it would have been scheduled that way regardless of the NL West winner. But then perhaps it was due to conditions in San Diego. I'm not certain.

My last question concerns the LCS in 1985-86. In the 1984 LCS, the AL East and NL West teams had home field advantage (in a 2-3 rotation). In 1985, the AL East and NL West teams again had home field advantage (this time in a 2-3-2 rotation). In 1986, the AL East and NL West teams had home field advantage in the LCS yet again. That's three years in a row. I'd like to know why that happened.

Originally Posted by thehef

Home/Away Format
1919-1921 (best of 9): 3-4-1, 2-3-2-1, or alternating games, depending upon geography

According to an article in The Sporting News, the home field rotation for 1921 was scheduled as 2-2-2-2-coin toss. Games were scheduled for Oct. 5-6 at the NL park, Oct. 7-8 at the AL park, Oct. 9-10 at the NL park, and Oct. 11-12 at the AL park. This was to be used if the World Series matched up the Giant/Pirates vs. Indians or Pirates vs. Yankees. If the Giants and Yankees squared off, then it was set to alternate daily between the AL and NL representatives.

Originally Posted by thehef

1925-war years: 2-3-2

I found at least apparent one exception. In 1934, a The New York Times article indicated that had the WS that year involved the Yankees and Giants, it would have alternated home parks daily. In 1936, an article in the same newspaper made specific mention of the fact that even if the Yankees and Giants were the WS teams the games would not alternate daily between parks. This suggests that a same-city WS might well have used a daily alternating pattern up through 1935.

Originally Posted by thehef

Opening Game(s) Location
1918: determined by National Commission

My notes say that although the 3-4 home field rotation format had been decreed by the Commission, the site where the WS would open was still determined by coin toss.

Originally Posted by thehef

1936-1994: NL in even years/AL in odd years (change in 1936 due to rule not followed in 1935)
1995-2002: NL in odd years/AL in even years (change in 1995 due to no World Series in 1994)

For 1994-96, according to an article in The New York Times the 1994 WS would have opened again in the AL park (as it had in 1993). This was ostensibly to avoid conflicts with the NFL schedule due to MLB's expanded playoffs. In compensation the 1995 and 1996 WS would have opened in the NL park. (However, with no WS in 1994, the site of the opening park went back to alternating yearly.)

Originally Posted by thehef

Off Days During Series
1905-1957: typically no days off unless needed for travel or due to Sunday baseball prohibitions

From 1941-46 an off day was added to the World Series schedule between games #6 and #7. This was ostensibly to allow the host club more time to arrange ticket sales for the deciding game. In 1943-44 travel days were increased: a match-up involving cities which normally required no travel days was allotted one travel day, and a match-up involving cities which normally required one travel day was allotted two travel days.

Originally Posted by thehef

1958-present: travel days/off days scheduled after games 2 & 5, regardless of geography

My notes say that a 2-3-2 rotation with fixed off days after games #2 and #5 started in 1965. From 1958-64 there were some exceptions.

In 1959, if the WS matched Giants/Dodgers vs. White Sox/Indians, travel days would have been used. If neither the Giants or Dodgers were the NL representative then no travel days would have been used. In 1960, the Commissioner arranged for travel days in the WS regardless of the contesting teams; travel days would have been used in 1961 as well. For the 1962 WS, travel days would be used unless it was the Angels vs. Dodgers—in that instance no travel days were to be used. In 1963 travel days were to be used regardless of the participating clubs. In 1964, the rule was that if the two cities were less than 300 miles apart then no travel days were required. This meant a Phillies vs. Orioles/Yankees or Cardinals/Reds vs. White Sox WS would have been played without travel days; a Cardinals/Giants/Reds vs. Orioles/Yankees or Giants/Phillies vs. White Sox WS would have used travel days.

(I'm not sure about 1958; I can't find my notes on that year.)

[thehef]

LGO wrote:
Specifically, from 1969-71 the schedule for the LCS had no travel days unless a west coast team was involved, in which case a travel day was added. This was true regardless of whether or not the LCS opened on the west coast or not. However, I'm not sure if this applied to the 1972-73 LCS. The original schedule I have for the ALCS in 1973 shows no travel day between the move from Baltimore to Oakland (the game was apparently postponed). If this is accurate, and based on the fact that the 1972 ALCS has an off day when moving from Oakland to Detroit, it suggests that the rule was changed to requiring an off day only when games moved from the west coast to the east. But the 1974 NLCS had an off day when games moved from the east coast to the west. (In 1975-76 it seems a travel day was added to both LCS without regard to the competing teams.)

Game 3 of the ’73 was indeed postponed due to rain… Maybe the 1971 ALCS experience, where Baltimore-to-Oakland travel was involved and the travel day was wiped out due to the rainout, showed MLB that an off day wasn’t really needed for east-to-west travel… But yes, that does at least suggest that the rule was changed in ’73 to only schedule off days when west-to-east travel was required…

(I don’t know how or even if it might relate, but Wikipedia notes that the 1973 Game 3 postponement “trigged a rhubarb between A.L. President Joe Cronin and A's President Charlie Finley,” and that "A surprisingly small crowd of 24,265 showed up for the final game..." So maybe there was some reason why Finley wanted no off day for travel... I dunno...)

LGO wrote:
Starting in 1977 the starts of the LCS were staggered, with the NLCS opening first in odd-numbered years, and the ALCS in even-numbered years. This held true over the next two years. But then in 1980 the NLCS again started first, even though by pattern it should have been the ALCS. I don't know why this happened.

Yes, that’s an odd one. No clue, can only speculate that it had something to do with stadium availability. The only other thing I can think of is that it had something to do with the original presidential debate schedule. Two early-October debates were scheduled but not held. I haven’t been able to find the dates of the cancelled debates, but the schedule was said to have been similar to the 1976 debate schedule and, as such, that would’ve placed a presidential debate on Tues, Oct 7th, and a VP debate on Sunday, Oct 15th. I suppose it’s possible that MLB thought it preferable to have their single Oct 7th LCS opener in the east (NL) rather than the west (AL); I suppose a west coast game would start later and thus perhaps conflict with the debate…

LGO wrote:
Then there's the 1984 NLCS, with its odd rotation of games. Given the fact the schedule had been set by August 31st, this suggests to me that perhaps it would have been scheduled that way regardless of the NL West winner. But then perhaps it was due to conditions in San Diego. I'm not certain.

Must’ve been the unavailability of Jack Murphy… As you noted, the Padres were up by 10 games at the end of August. But while the odd off day schedule was made official at the end of August, it’s also possible that another normal schedule was also at the ready in case the Padres folded, but that it wasn’t publicized since its possible use would’ve been highly unlikely, so it wouldn’t have been particularly important to have been publicized at that point.

LGO wrote:
My last question concerns the LCS in 1985-86. In the 1984 LCS, the AL East and NL West teams had home field advantage (in a 2-3 rotation). In 1985, the AL East and NL West teams again had home field advantage (this time in a 2-3-2 rotation). In 1986, the AL East and NL West teams had home field advantage in the LCS yet again. That's three years in a row. I'd like to know why that happened.

This – HFA going to the AL East & NL West three years in a row - does seem strange at first glance. However, if you look at from the perspective of where the series’ started – rather than who had HFA – it’s not as strange: From '69 thru ’84 the series opened at the site of the team that did not have HFA, whereas from ’85 on the series opened at the site of the team with HFA… So if you take HFA out of the equation and consider that the rotating factor was where the series opens, the question isn’t why three years in a row?, it’s merely why did the east/west openers pattern switch in 86?

LGO wrote:
According to an article in The Sporting News, the home field rotation for 1921 was scheduled as 2-2-2-2-coin toss. Games were scheduled for Oct. 5-6 at the NL park, Oct. 7-8 at the AL park, Oct. 9-10 at the NL park, and Oct. 11-12 at the AL park. This was to be used if the World Series matched up the Giant/Pirates vs. Indians or Pirates vs. Yankees. If the Giants and Yankees squared off, then it was set to alternate daily between the AL and NL representatives.

Those schedule possibilities were obviously determined relatively late in the season, based upon the likely matchups. So, given that, if you were to build the rules that would be in effect prior to knowing possible matchups, would you say they would’ve been this?

• 1919: 3-4-1, 2-3-2-1, or alternating games, depending upon geography
• 1920 & 1921: 3-4-1, 2-2-2-2, or alternating games, depending upon geography

LGO wrote:
I found at least apparent one exception. In 1934, a The New York Times article indicated that had the WS that year involved the Yankees and Giants, it would have alternated home parks daily. In 1936, an article in the same newspaper made specific mention of the fact that even if the Yankees and Giants were the WS teams the games would not alternate daily between parks. This suggests that a same-city WS might well have used a daily alternating pattern up through 1935.

That does stand to reason and for my purposes, I will call that the rule from '25 to '35… Thanks!

LGO wrote:
From 1941-46 an off day was added to the World Series schedule between games #6 and #7. This was ostensibly to allow the host club more time to arrange ticket sales for the deciding game. In 1943-44 travel days were increased: a match-up involving cities which normally required no travel days was allotted one travel day, and a match-up involving cities which normally required one travel day was allotted two travel days.

Those two items answer a few questions I had about off days during that period. Thanks... Do you know why the travel days were increased in 1943 and 1944? In ’43, was it due to geography, with a trip from the east coast to St Louis being the farthest trip possible at the time (although it had been done before)? Or was it somehow war-related? As for ’44 – and this is technicality – it seems that only the extra-off-day-to-sell-tickets rule applied: It was a series that required no travel days and the only off day was one that wasn’t guaranteed to happen… So maybe the no-days-gets-one-day / one-day-gets-two-days rule did not apply to same city matchups?

And do you have any idea why both of these two off-day rules were discontinued (in ’47 and ’45, respectively)?

LGO wrote:
My notes say that a 2-3-2 rotation with fixed off days after games #2 and #5 started in 1965. From 1958-64 there were some exceptions.

In 1959, if the WS matched Giants/Dodgers vs. White Sox/Indians, travel days would have been used. If neither the Giants or Dodgers were the NL representative then no travel days would have been used. In 1960, the Commissioner arranged for travel days in the WS regardless of the contesting teams; travel days would have been used in 1961 as well. For the 1962 WS, travel days would be used unless it was the Angels vs. Dodgers—in that instance no travel days were to be used. In 1963 travel days were to be used regardless of the participating clubs. In 1964, the rule was that if the two cities were less than 300 miles apart then no travel days were required. This meant a Phillies vs. Orioles/Yankees or Cardinals/Reds vs. White Sox WS would have been played without travel days; a Cardinals/Giants/Reds vs. Orioles/Yankees or Giants/Phillies vs. White Sox WS would have used travel days.

Sounds like the rule during this period was pretty much the same as pre-’58: Travel days after games 2 & 5 if needed due to geography, with perhaps some consideration given to likely matchups and the need to set the schedule ahead of time… The exceptions for ’60 & ’61 and the more-clearly-defined rule in 1964 were all probably indicative of an evolving set of guidelines that were a result of a changing mode of travel (planes vs. trains), westward expansion, television, etc…

LGO wrote:
(I'm not sure about 1958; I can't find my notes on that year.)

My 1958 notes say that it was the first year where travel days were scheduled without regard to geography. However, that could have something to do with the fact that by maybe mid-August it was unlikely that a series not requiring travel days would occur.

Finally, thanks for the 1918 and 1994-1996 info... I will update my WS rules table, and post my LCS rules, shortly.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by thehef

Those schedule possibilities were obviously determined relatively late in the season, based upon the likely matchups. So, given that, if you were to build the rules that would be in effect prior to knowing possible matchups, would you say they would’ve been this?

1919: 3-4-1, 2-3-2-1, or alternating games, depending upon geography
1920 & 1921: 3-4-1, 2-2-2-2, or alternating games, depending upon geography

That's reasonable, though I think it's possible the 1919 schedule might have been 2-3-2-1 regardless of the participating clubs and the 1920 schedule 3-4-1 regardless. It's hard to tell since when the WS schedule was arranged the contesting clubs were pretty much known.

The only hint comes from the 1920 WS schedule. As originally arranged, it was going to be:

Tue Oct 5: at CLE/CHA
Wed Oct 6: at CLE/CHA
Thu Oct 7: at CLE/CHA
Fri Oct 8: off day
Sat Oct 9: at BRO
Sun Oct 10: at BRO
Mon Oct 11: at BRO
Tue Oct 12: at BRO
Wed Oct 13: off day
Thu Oct 14: at CLE/CHA
Fri Oct 15: off day
Sat Oct 16: at BRO*

*The coin toss to determine the site of the final game had been held prior to the determining the full schedule, rather than the customary practice of the day of the fifth game.

As it happened, the White Sox fell out of the race, and Cleveland asked that the schedule be altered to give it more time to prepare its stadium. So the schedule was changed to:

Tue Oct 5: at BRO
Wed Oct 6: at BRO
Thu Oct 7: at BRO
Fri Oct 8: off day
Sat Oct 9: at CLE
Sun Oct 10: at CLE
Mon Oct 11: at CLE
Tue Oct 12: at CLE
Wed Oct 13: off day
Thu Oct 14: at BRO
Fri Oct 15: at BRO

The same home field rotation pattern is used, even though the potential opponents changed, and the starting location was altered. While certainly Brooklyn and Chicago were far enough apart to require a travel day, this is less obviously the case for Brooklyn and Cleveland; these two cities are close enough that a travel day is not necessarily required. It may have been added to the original WS schedule simply for simplicity's sake.

My take on it is that the WS schedules usually don't alter the home field rotation unless the clubs are from the same city (or very close together in the earlier years). Usually, the same rotation is used regardless; what changes is whether off days are needed when the home field switches.

Originally Posted by thehef

Do you know why the travel days were increased in 1943 and 1944? In ’43, was it due to geography, with a trip from the east coast to St Louis being the farthest trip possible at the time (although it had been done before)? Or was it somehow war-related?

It was due to the war. Train transportation was overseen by the ODT (Office of Defense Transportation); train travel deemed not essential to the war effort was limited and difficult. This led to the extra travel day. The switch to a 3-4 rotation for clubs in different cities was also another result, as it allowed MLB to reduce the amount of train travel it required. (The 1943-45 regular season schedules also underwent changes to reduce railway usage.)

It was the ODT and the need to reduce train travel which led to the cancellation of the 1945 All-Star Game. But with the war ending in mid-August, travel difficulties eased, and the 1945 WS had the normal amount of travel days.

The day off added between games #6 and #7 ended after the 1946 season because it was judged as unnecessary. (It may have been unpopular with fans and players as well.)

Originally Posted by thehef

As for ’44 – and this is technicality – it seems that only the extra-off-day-to-sell-tickets rule applied: It was a series that required no travel days and the only off day was one that wasn’t guaranteed to happen… So maybe the no-days-gets-one-day / one-day-gets-two-days rule did not apply to same city matchups?

According to an article in the August 29, 1944, edition of The New York Times, the following World Series schedules were to be used if these clubs participated:

NYA/BOS vs SLN

Wed Oct 4: at SLN
Thu Oct 5: at SLN
Fri Oct 6: at SLN
Sat Oct 7: off day
Sun Oct 8: off day
Mon Oct 9: at NYA/BOS
Tue Oct 10: at NYA/BOS
Wed Oct 11: at NYA/BOS
Thu Oct 12: off day
Fri Oct 13: at NYA/BOS

DET vs SLN

Wed Oct 4: at SLN
Thu Oct 5: at SLN
Fri Oct 6: at SLN
Sat Oct 7: off day
Sun Oct 8: at DET
Mon Oct 9: at DET
Tue Oct 10: at DET
Wed Oct 11: off day
Thu Oct 12: at DET

In the Oct. 4, 1944, edition, the following WS schedule was published (featuring the two clubs that had actually made the Series):

SLA vs SLN

Wed Oct 4: at SLN
Thu Oct 5: at SLN
Fri Oct 6: at SLA
Sat Oct 7: at SLA
Sun Oct 8: at SLA
Mon Oct 9: at SLN
Tue Oct 10: off day
Wed Oct 11: at SLN

Since the two clubs are in the same city, no train travel was required so the the normal 2-3-2 home field rotation could be used, along with no off day being needed when switching parks.

Originally Posted by thehef

Finally, thanks for the 1918 and 1994-1996 info... I will update my WS rules table, and post my LCS rules, shortly.

What I was thinking of was having a grid, with the AL teams across the top and the NL teams down the side. This results in a chart of all the potential WS matchups. Then each matchup is assigned a number corresponding to the schedule that matchup would use. It's a simple matter then to simply look up the number of the schedule that would apply to the given participating teams. In most years there's not more than two or three applicable WS schedules.

[thehef]

LGO wrote:
That's reasonable, though I think it's possible the 1919 schedule might have been 2-3-2-1 regardless of the participating clubs and the 1920 schedule 3-4-1 regardless. It's hard to tell since when the WS schedule was arranged the contesting clubs were pretty much known.

I would think that - since the 1921 9-gamer and the 1922 & 1923 7-gamers, each of which featured all-New York matchups, were all in the alternating site format - then the 1919 and 1920 series' would've been alternating site, too, if they had ended up as a same-city series.

LGO wrote:
As it happened, the White Sox fell out of the race, and Cleveland asked that the schedule be altered to give it more time to prepare its stadium.

True. However, just fyi, my notes indicate that Cleveland's request was for the start of the series to be delayed two days until construction was complete, and that that request was denied, with the commission instead switching the schedule so the series started in Brooklyn.

Re the 1944 World Series schedules being printed in The NY Times on Aug 29th, did they also publish a schedule for a StL-StL matchup? After all, both St Loo teams were in first place on that day...

(Thanks, btw, for the background on the war year rules. Very interesting!)

LGO wrote:
What I was thinking of was having a grid, with the AL teams across the top and the NL teams down the side. This results in a chart of all the potential WS matchups. Then each matchup is assigned a number corresponding to the schedule that matchup would use. It's a simple matter then to simply look up the number of the schedule that would apply to the given participating teams. In most years there's not more than two or three applicable WS schedules.

So you'd have a separate grid for each year (or for each group of years where rules were the same), right? Are you thinking of using this for your own convenience, or is it something you hope will be incorporated into the game? At any rate, I think that is a good idea that should work rather nicely for the LCS', too. Might get a little tricky for the LDS', but probably workable.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by thehef

Re the 1944 World Series schedules being printed in The NY Times on Aug 29th, did they also publish a schedule for a StL-StL matchup? After all, both St Loo teams were in first place on that day...

I don't recall. Probably. Since finding the WS schedule between the actual competitors was easy, I was focused on finding the alternative schedules for other contesting club combinations to figure out what other pattens were used.

Originally Posted by thehef

So you'd have a separate grid for each year (or for each group of years where rules were the same), right? Are you thinking of using this for your own convenience, or is it something you hope will be incorporated into the game?

The latter. I have been suggesting historically accurate post-season schedules for some years now.

Originally Posted by thehef

At any rate, I think that is a good idea that should work rather nicely for the LCS', too. Might get a little tricky for the LDS', but probably workable.

The LCS is simple enough, except for the earliest years and a few of the exceptions we talked about. The DS is actually pretty straightforward, and the schedules consistent. The slightly uncertain part is the rule around how the "long" DS series was assigned.

The tricky bit to the DS is assigning the game start times. In real life those are dependent on the matchups involved, which teams are playing on a given day, and, most significantly, are always considered and set up in Eastern Time values. I would think a set of rules OOTP could use can be put together, but they'd be somewhat convoluted.