HOF: Mike Mussina?

[Russ]

He's going to reach 250 wins (prob 275 or so), over 3000 strikeouts, and his ERA is a run better than the league average over his career. He should have won 20 games at least 4 years in Baltimore, but due to absolutely terrible run support he didn't. Two years from now, this won't even be a question.

[disposableheros]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

Darn, the poll is closed. I would have voted "no" because he's been a good pitcher but not great enough for the HoF. I note with satisfaction that OOTPB would agree with me; I believe the default is either 300 wins or 250 wins and a career ERA of under 3.50. He has neither. He's never won 20 in a season and never carried a team to a championship; perhaps if he had, we could bend the rules. Sorry, Mike, no ticket to Cooperstown unless you're a paying tourist like the rest of us.

i cant tell if this is supposed to be sarcastic or not. i sure hope so.

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by disposableheros

i cant tell if this is supposed to be sarcastic or not. i sure hope so.

I hate to disappoint you, but I don't think Mussina belongs in the HoF. I feel the same about a bunch of others like him who are in there already.

Edit - Actually, the part about OOTPB agreeing with me was supposed to be humorous, not sarcastic. The rest of the statement stands; basically, Mussina has been a very good pitcher, just not good enough for the HoF. Only the great ones should be in there, IMO.

Edit 2 - Want an example of how I view this? Imagine Clemens, Maddux, and Mussina all retire the same year and, five years later, all three of them are up on the stage in Cooperstown being inducted into the HoF. Do you really see Mussina deserving to be there with the other two? I for one would have a problem with that, but that's just my opinion of course.

[Dagrims]

Originally Posted by disposableheros

i cant tell if this is supposed to be sarcastic or not. i sure hope so.

All you need to do is look at the 69 votes "no" or "too close to call" to realize that this is the majority's way of assessing Mussina's career. That's a shame.

[Dagrims]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

Edit 2 - Want an example of how I view this? Imagine Clemens, Maddux, and Mussina all retire the same year and, five years later, all three of them are up on the stage in Cooperstown being inducted into the HoF. Do you really see Mussina deserving to be there with the other two?

Without a doubt. They don't have different tiers in the Hall. Clemens and Maddux are two of the ten or fifteen best pitchers of all time, while Mussina is not in that rarified air. He certainly is deserving of a Hall induction, however.

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by Dagrims

Without a doubt. They don't have different tiers in the Hall. Clemens and Maddux are two of the ten or fifteen best pitchers of all time, while Mussina is not in that rarified air. He certainly is deserving of a Hall induction, however.

OK. It will be interesting to see who's right, as determined by the actual vote. I happen to think you guys will be justified by Mussina being voted in at some point. I also happen to be one of those people who think that the HoF is getting too crowded with players like Mussina. The more of those that you let in, the less meaningful become the HoF memberships of players like Clemens and Maddux. And Ford, Gibson, Koufax, Ryan, Seaver, etc. If you don't agree with me, I have two words for you: Gaylord Perry.

Hmmm, Dagrims, that's not a bad idea about different tiers in the Hall. Have an A wing, B wing, C wing, etc. That's not as harsh as what I was thinking of proposing to Bud next time I saw him: a secret HoF "expulsion committee" that would review past admissions.

[Syd Thrift]

Sandy Koufax and his 165 wins will not appreciate Moose and his 250?

[magnet]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Sandy Koufax and his 165 wins will not appreciate Moose and his 250?

Of course, if he got wins at the same clip as Koufax, he'd be at 300, since you know, he's pitched 7 more seasons than SK.

[Dagrims]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

the less meaningful become the HoF memberships of players like Clemens and Maddux. And Ford, Gibson, Koufax, Ryan, Seaver

Mussina has better statistics than Ryan. As big of a Ryan fan as I am, and as much as I don't like Mussina, if you consider Ryan HOF-caliber, it's tough to say Mussina isn't.

[mlyons]

Originally Posted by Dagrims

Mussina has better statistics than Ryan. As big of a Ryan fan as I am, and as much as I don't like Mussina, if you consider Ryan HOF-caliber, it's tough to say Mussina isn't.

But Nolan Ryan had 300,000 strikeouts and 47 no-hitters!

[magnet]

nolan ryan = most.overrated.player.ever.

[Luis_Rivera]

Originally Posted by magnet

Of course, if he got wins at the same clip as Koufax, he'd be at 300, since you know, he's pitched 7 more seasons than SK.

How many starts a year did pitchers typicaly make in the 60's?

How many starts a year do pitchers make now?

Also... how much more control did starters have over the game back then compared to now when they only typically go 6-7 innings?

Also, what kind of team was the Dodgers in the 60's vs. the Orioles of the 90's?

[Goody]

Comparing Koufax to Mussina is just insane. Can we get this back on topic?

[Luis_Rivera]

Originally Posted by 9lives

Comparing Koufax to Mussina is just insane. Can we get this back on topic?

No, they're two guys who took different routes to being Hall of Fame caliber.

Koufax had a very high peak, Moose had a long period of being an extremely good pitcher. There is a very legitimate argument that you could consider Moose's career more well-deserving than Koufax, whose career is definitely among the most overrated of any professional athlete in history.

[magnet]

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

How many starts a year did pitchers typicaly make in the 60's?

How many starts a year do pitchers make now?

Also... how much more control did starters have over the game back then compared to now when they only typically go 6-7 innings?

Also, what kind of team was the Dodgers in the 60's vs. the Orioles of the 90's?

Originally Posted by 9lives

Comparing Koufax to Mussina is just insane. Can we get this back on topic?

This was all kinda my point

[SandMan]

Originally Posted by 9lives

Comparing Koufax to Mussina is just insane. Can we get this back on topic?

This is correct, but compare him to Don Drysdale.

1. Drysdale's ERA+ was 121, Mussina 122 .... too close to call.

2. Both have about 500 GS and 3300 + IP, although Drysdale played fewer seasons. A pitcher only has so many innings in his arm and Drysdale pitched his with many more starts per year than Mussina, but in the long run Mussina is a more valuable pitcher... to close to call

3. Drysdale won only 209 games and lost 166 playing for GREAT Dodger teams, Mussina won about 250 so far and only lost 144 playing for GOOD Yankee teams..... edge Moose.



So what we have is a player that plays a career with consistency for a long period and puts up numbers as good as many hall of famers (not the elite pitchers but alot of the very good ones that are in). Yet he is not taken as a serious candidate by many writers. It is true he did not win 20 games - ever, but he is very consistent. Would you rather have a guy with 15-18 wins every year or a guy that will win 23 one year and 10 the next (Drysdale)???? Moose should not even be a second thought. This guy is a definite Hall of Famer. Very good for a long time.....



EDIT: Replied to this today because I was looking through the stats at Baseball Reference and Mike Mussina's career just totally blew me away. I did not realize how good this guy really is until I look at each yearly line and see that he was remarkably consistant and if he played in another era would be a 300 game winner and would be a lock for the hall..... it was surprising to see ZERO 20 win seasons for a guy with about 250 wins in his career..... No player with 250 or more wins has never finished a career without winning 20 games in any one season..... This is amazing......

[spark240]

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

Sure, "idiots" may be a bit of a stretch. How's "ignorant" suit you? Many of the awards they have given and players (Rafael Palmeiro's GG in '99, Pete Vuckovich winning the Cy in '82, and the list goes on...) they have left out of the HoF (Bert Blyleven, Ron Santo), would point to some sort of collective ignorance among the BBWAA.

There's a difference between awards which are more or less explicitly intended for the "most valuable" player in a given role (and thus the debate is only on which measures are most appropriate to use), and the HOF, which has always been more abstract. Other than the first class (who were all superlative in both measures), it has always been questionable on how much value is and should be assigned to statistical "value" versus less quantifiable elements of famousness (like, say, having played for NYY).

For example, I may say (for example) that Joe Jackson and Pete Rose should be in the HOF because they were (great players) expelled in disgrace, and the expulsions and the disgrace are essential to baseball lore, in a way that someone being very competent for a number of years just isn't.

You may well disagree, but it's an entirely different territory of debate than the question of which measures are appropriate to identify a given season's best pitcher, given that everyone agrees the Cy Young is for the best pitcher.

[rem]

Mike Mussina: Top 10 ERA+ 10 times, career ERA+ 122

HOFer Juan Marichal: Top 10 ERA+ 6 times, career ERA+ 122
HOFer Clark Griffin: TOP 10 ERA+ 5 times, career ERA+ 121
HOFer Catfish Hunter: TOP 10 ERA+ 3 times, career ERA+ 104
HOFer Don Drysdale: Top 10 ERA+ 6 times, career ERA+ 121
HOFer Sandy Koufax: TOP 10 ERA+ 6 times, career ERA+ 131

[rem]

dola,

Baseball Prospectus has Mike Mussina with 4 20 win seasons when adjusted and 269 overall wins.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/mussimi01.php

Also, I bet that Mike Mussina's ERA+ of 122 was much closer to Koufax's 131 when Mussina was 30.

[Skipaway]

Mussina's commulative ERA+ at age 30 was 130.

His commulative ERA+ was 131 at age 32, with 164-92 in 2238.3 innings.

Koufax's career number was ERA+ 131, 165-87 in 2324.3 innings.

Considering how much Mussina has done after age 32, he's a waaaaaaaaay better hall of famer than Koufax.