[Luis_Rivera]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slick

But the thing is, you can't discount stuff like that because in the end the BBWAA, not the stathead community, is going to decide who gets in the Hall and who stays out.

Well I thought the debate was "is he deserving?" rather than "will the idiots put him in?"

For me, a guy with just 413 GS through last year needs to be at the Sandy Koufax level for me to really seriously consider him for the Hall.

Why? Koufax started 100 less games than Moose in an era that pitchers started close to 40 games per season. If anything, the amount of games pitched should be discounted for Moose.

A full season puts his GS about equal with Whitey Ford, who did get in on the basis of his dominance over a relatively short career (on his 3rd attempt, mind you), so it is pretty close. Of course, Ford had the highest winning percentage of any 20th century pitcher; that and the pinstripes he wore (which, of course, contributed to the first bit) are why he's in there.

Moose pitched a similar amount of games as Ford... this is true. However, if you really put the numbers into context he had a better career. Soon after Ford started declining, we moved into the great pitchers' era of 62-68, creating the illusion that he was dominant all the way through age 38 if you just look at the raw numbers. His career NRA and DERA are both higher than Moose's.

[Luis_Rivera]

Oh, and I'm going to contend that Moose has pitched at a level CLOSE to Koufax. Not at peak value, but if you look at the aggregate he has. Sanford made his name with 4 great seasons: '63-'66, and one season that was very good, but shortened by injury: 62.

'92 was a great season for Moose, and the '94 strike shortened year was on its way to being great. But he was one of the best pitchers in the league for a longer period of time. So, when you look at the aggregate:

NRA/DERA-
Moose: 3.59/3.55
Koufax: 3.45/3.45

Moose is closer to Mr. Braun than Whitey (3.79/3.99... so we see here how much Whitey also benefited from a good D behind him) is to him.

[jnshmoo]

I vote not hot.

[Gastric ReFlux]

Originally Posted by jnshmoo

I vote not hot.

That's mean.

[abailey3313]

My biased opinion leads me to say "no".

[jnshmoo]

Originally Posted by Gastric ReFlux

That's mean.

[Vezna31]

Quick tidbit about Mussina...a few years ago ('97 or '98), my roommate was an autograph seeker. I few times, i went with him down to Veterans stadium to get some autographs. I had bought a baseball and was trying to get all the current season Phillies to sign it. The Phillies were playing the Orioles in inter-league so he wanted to go see about getting a few. We decided to go down to the Sheraton hotel where most visiting teams stay. There were only a handful of people there, maybe 10, waiting for the bus. When the team bus showed up, a few people walked over. I was sitting on a wall just waiting. Mussina and another player walked by me and I heard him say, "I can't believe these f'ing people. They need to get a life." At that point, I thought he was the biggest a-hole player. On the flip-side, Harold Baines politely declined, but said he would come back and sign everything after he was finished eating. I thought that was cool.

[Y0DA55]

Originally Posted by Vezna31

Quick tidbit about Mussina...a few years ago ('97 or '98), my roommate was an autograph seeker. I few times, i went with him down to Veterans stadium to get some autographs. I had bought a baseball and was trying to get all the current season Phillies to sign it. The Phillies were playing the Orioles in inter-league so he wanted to go see about getting a few. We decided to go down to the Sheraton hotel where most visiting teams stay. There were only a handful of people there, maybe 10, waiting for the bus. When the team bus showed up, a few people walked over. I was sitting on a wall just waiting. Mussina and another player walked by me and I heard him say, "I can't believe these f'ing people. They need to get a life." At that point, I thought he was the biggest a-hole player. On the flip-side, Harold Baines politely declined, but said he would come back and sign everything after he was finished eating. I thought that was cool.

But honestly, wouldn't you feel the same way?

I've had people ask for my autograph (as I did some singing in college), and I am always like, "Why would they want my autograph? I'm just a normal guy." I sort of felt the same way that Moose did.

However, always being in the spotlight, one should usually watch what they say in public. I also don't think he has a very good grasp on people other than baseball players or how much of a thrill it is to have someone famous sign something of yours.

[Luis_Rivera]

Originally Posted by Y0DA55

But honestly, wouldn't you feel the same way?

Not that it affects my feeling on his worthiness for the HoF, that's pretty ****ing arrogant.

Harold had the right idea. He's not obligated to sign anything, nor is Moose. But at least Harold said... let me do what I gotta do then I'll do that favor for you guys.

Moose could have declined completely and it'd be no big deal but saying what he says, he comes off as an arrogant prick.

[Cubsgnrlmngr]

Mussina makes the HOF if David Wells makes the HOF.

[Vezna31]

Originally Posted by Y0DA55

But honestly, wouldn't you feel the same way?

Honestly, I don't know. I'm not a superstar. But I did go to a HOF ceremony one year and I saw a mob of people. In the middle of it was Steve Garvey. He signed every single thing shoved into his face, literally. It was a pretty disturbing sight to see. After he signed everyone, my buddy and I walked a few blocks with him to a bar just casually talking. I asked him if it bothered him they way people swarm him like that and his reply was that he got used to it after a while. We shook hands, got a picture together and he went back to his hotel and we went drinking.

[Luis_Rivera]

Originally Posted by Cubsgnrlmngr

Mussina makes the HOF if David Wells makes the HOF.

Ahhh he's worlds ahead of Wells.

[Vezna31]

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

Moose could have declined completely and it'd be no big deal but saying what he says, he comes off as an arrogant prick.

Exactly.

[Y0DA55]

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

Not that it affects my feeling on his worthiness for the HoF, that's pretty ****ing arrogant.

Harold had the right idea. He's not obligated to sign anything, nor is Moose. But at least Harold said... let me do what I gotta do then I'll do that favor for you guys.

Moose could have declined completely and it'd be no big deal but saying what he says, he comes off as an arrogant prick.

Which is why they need to be aware of what they say.

I don't necessarily think it's arrogant. I just think he's too far removed from the reality of many people to realize how much this might mean to them.

And Harold defanitely handled it better. But man, there is one reason why I wouldn't want to be famous.

[Y0DA55]

Originally Posted by Vezna31

I asked him if it bothered him they way people swarm him like that and his reply was that he got used to it after a while.

But maybe some people don't. Mike isn't exactly an outgoing person (to the press, which is the only view I have of this guy as I have never met him). But he also was making an offhanded comment to a friend that was overheard by you.

Should he have said it? No.

But I don't think that sometimes people don't understand what these guys go through being "famous". Just as he doesn't really have a grasp on life without fame (as he's been very good for a number of years now). Not that it makes it right, just arguing for his side.

[darkhorse]

If fame ever visited my door, I would never sign an autograph for anyone. A complete waste of time. I'd have no problem chatting with fans if I had the time.

[ctorg]

I took the poll to be asking whether he would get in rather than whether he deserves it. Does he deserve it? Probably, yes, I think so. Will he get in? I think probably not.

[Luis_Rivera]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

If fame ever visited my door, I would never sign an autograph for anyone. A complete waste of time. I'd have no problem chatting with fans if I had the time.

Haha... Bill Russell says 'hello.'

[Luis_Rivera]

Originally Posted by ctorg

Does he deserve it? Probably, yes, I think so. Will he get in? I think probably not.

I think you're correct on both accounts, Mr. Torg.

[TotalEnd98]

Originally Posted by Y0DA55

But maybe some people don't. Mike isn't exactly an outgoing person (to the press, which is the only view I have of this guy as I have never met him). But he also was making an offhanded comment to a friend that was overheard by you.

Should he have said it? No.

But I don't think that sometimes people don't understand what these guys go through being "famous". Just as he doesn't really have a grasp on life without fame (as he's been very good for a number of years now). Not that it makes it right, just arguing for his side.

Mussina may be nicer now, though. A friend of mine ran into him and David Wells at a Yankee game a couple years back and he said Mussina was the nicest player he'd run into, besides Jeter and, of all people, Glenallen Hill. One encounter doesn't mean he's changed, of course, but I figured I'd throw that out there.